Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[BruceVC]

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/07/21/16/16/rebels-discuss-black-box-search-over-phone

 

 

"I have a request for you," the rebel leader says.

"It is not my request. Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the black boxes. I mean people from Moscow."

 

Good thing he made it nice and clear in the open

 

I'm really surprised you find this grotesque display of Russian influence funny?

 

Its just reinforces the fact how deeply ingrained the Russians are with the separatists and this is not a good thing as it confirms just how complicated the situation is

[Malcador]

Well it's either the incompetence of him needing to clarify that when he should be aware he's being recorded most likely, if it's real, or the incompetence of the forgery if it's not.  Either way is amusing. 

[Gfted1]

Yes, that's whats grotesque.

 

I believe Malc was commenting on the fact that the rebels were telegraphing the fact that Russia wanted the flight recorders. 

 

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[Gromnir]

am kinda surprised there would be so much furor over the black boxes. is gonna show that plane didn't experience technical issue before being blown to bits.  okie dokie. so? unless the russian supported separatists were complete arse clowns and somehow communicated with the commercial airliner before shooting them down, am not understanding what the black box could reveal.  'course, we only have limited knowledge o' black boxes, so perhaps they can triangulate the launch point of incoming missiles and identify the difference 'tween a russian and a ukranian sa-11 missile.  gonna need to get us one o' those black boxes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 21, 2014 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

am kinda surprised there would be so much furor over the black boxes. is gonna show that plane didn't experience technical issue before being blown to bits.  okie dokie. so? unless the russian supported separatists were complete arse clowns and somehow communicated with the commercial airliner before shooting them down, am not understanding what the black box could reveal.  'course, we only have limited knowledge o' black boxes, so perhaps they can triangulate incoming missiles and identify the difference 'tween a russian and a ukranian sa-11 missiles. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The black boxes were going to be used to present irrefutable evidence that the separatists shot the plane down. This would have then be used to put pressure on Russia to end the conflict. Without Russian support the separatists military capability is severely reduced and the conflict will end sooner one way or another

 

But the interesting new development is the understandable outrage from the plane being shot down  may cause the same result and get Russia to act anyway to really try to end the conflict. And trust me, don't underestimate the EU outrage

[Gromnir]

 

am kinda surprised there would be so much furor over the black boxes. is gonna show that plane didn't experience technical issue before being blown to bits.  okie dokie. so? unless the russian supported separatists were complete arse clowns and somehow communicated with the commercial airliner before shooting them down, am not understanding what the black box could reveal.  'course, we only have limited knowledge o' black boxes, so perhaps they can triangulate incoming missiles and identify the difference 'tween a russian and a ukranian sa-11 missiles. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

The black boxes were going to be used to present irrefutable evidence that the separatists shot the plane down. 

 

how? black boxes store communications and flight data from the plane. prove that plane were shot down? that is useful, but does anybody doubt that the plane were shot down? how will black boxes prove who shot the plane? as we said, unless the folks who fired on the plane also communicated with it (which would presuppose that they knew to use commercial airline frequencies to do the communicating) we can't understand what is the big deal about the black boxes in this case. rule out bomb on-board or catastrophic technical difficulties is useful, but won't prove anything. what is the big deal?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[Malcador]

Black boxes will just confirm that the plane suffered damage consistent with that of a missile attack, at best.  Which is pretty much where we are now.  Maybe some voice recordings if the pilots pointed out "Hey, a missile coming from the right!" or something like that.

[Hildegard]

Black boxes will just confirm that the plane suffered damage consistent with that of a missile attack, at best.  Which is pretty much where we are now.  Maybe some voice recordings if the pilots pointed out "Hey, a missile coming from the right!" or something like that.

 

Pilots couldn't see the missiles coming. If Sa-11 or S-300 was used, the missile takes up to 40 seconds to cover a 10 000 meters distance, it's too fast. Black box is just gonna confirm taking damage at a certain point. It's not gonna tell where the missile came from or any such data that could be used as a smoking gun. 

 

EDIT - this situation with the Boeing, the whole Ukraine conflict is so hard to put together even approximately correct from all the propaganda shouting from both sides. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Hildegard

[sorophx]

oh my, it's just another proxy war that wouldn't have been possible without people on both sides of the conflict willing to fight it.

 

Poroshenko is a fool, and the rebels are just retards. why are you even discussing that ****? I was and probably will again be affected by this conflict, and yet I don't feel the need to know who's really behind it all, history will surely tell me, in 10 or so years. 

 

on the other hand, what else is there to discuss on a video game forum, right? 

[obyknven]

Meanwhile US military forces confirm Russian version of Ukrainian army responsibility for shoot downed Boeing.  Must be very funny if western media who fall in hysteria about Terrorussia suddenly shut up and forgot about this tragedy in near future (or continue blaming Russia while all facts against this).

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

 http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

[Malcador]

 

Black boxes will just confirm that the plane suffered damage consistent with that of a missile attack, at best.  Which is pretty much where we are now.  Maybe some voice recordings if the pilots pointed out "Hey, a missile coming from the right!" or something like that.

 

Pilots couldn't see the missiles coming. If Sa-11 or S-300 was used, the missile takes up to 40 seconds to cover a 10 000 meters distance, it's too fast. Black box is just gonna confirm taking damage at a certain point. It's not gonna tell where the missile came from or any such data that could be used as a smoking gun. 

 

EDIT - this situation with the Boeing, the whole Ukraine conflict is so hard to put together even approximately correct from all the propaganda shouting from both sides. 

 

True, but was hypothesizing on what the black box could yield that we don't know, never know until one checks and all.  But yes, most likely the black box won't be all that helpful even if those evil <insert party's name here> interfere with it anyway.

[Zoraptor]

Yep, black boxes are not going to be useful in this case except for possibly giving a precise shootdown time and whether the plane immediately broke up or not, and even that can be extrapolated from other information anyway- or so my extensive watching of Air Crash Investigation tells me (eg TWA800's breakup pattern was extrapolated from its debris field). In some cases like KAL007 they were very useful for determining why the airliner was so far off course and for largely confirming the Soviet version of what happened but civilian airliners don't have early warning systems or radar capable of detecting SAMs except in very specific cases like El-Al or semi military like Presidential jets. Far more likely to give concrete information is any bits of missile debris, obsession with the black boxes is almost totally irrelevant.

[Walsingham]

Meanwhile, reading up on the incident, I notice that far right blogs are all in favour of Putin on this one.

[Agiel]

Meanwhile, reading up on the incident, I notice that far right blogs are all in favour of Putin on this one.

 

Shouldn't at all be that surprising:

 

http://20committee.com/2014/04/07/putinism-and-the-anti-weird-coalition/

 

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-kremlin-builds-an-unholy-alliance-with-americas-christian-right-5de35250066b

Edited July 21, 2014 by Agiel

[Gorgon]

I take it it was an accident whoever did it. So. does it matter. Aside from the fact that the bereft deserve to know.

[Walsingham]

I take it it was an accident whoever did it. So. does it matter. Aside from the fact that the bereft deserve to know.

 

Running and falling on scissors is an accident. If someone hands a small kid sharp scissors and tells them to run, that's no longer an accident.

 

The Kremlin have massively escalated this situation by supplying whole convoys of military hardware into the region.

 

Ach, what's the point of arguing this one? Again, we've spent the last twenty years seeking legitimacy and openness in government policy and none of it is any bloody use. We might just as well actually crack on and conspire and whatever...

[Zoraptor]

Meh, we don't have any independent corroboration of Russia sending in heaps of stuff. You'd suspect that if they were the rebels wouldn't be in trouble. That whole line reeks of Goldilocks Theory- send in just enough support to be noticed, but not enough to be effective; send in enough agents to be responsible, but have them not act covertly and forget to use proper communications protocols; send in sophisticated SAMs and trained operators, but not sophisticated or trained enough to detect a civilian airliner. Whenever there's that much convenient incompetence I get very sceptical very quick. Plus, the one instance in which we've got supposed proper evidence the T64s in question certainly appeared to be of a modernised variant exclusive to Ukraine, not Russia (could have been a bodge job to mask Russian type T64s, but are far more likely to straight prizes from the regular Ukraine army).

[Gromnir]

...

 

when you folks drink the kool-aid you is serious.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

I'm waiting till its been officially announced that the separatists did indeed shoot down the plane before I come back on this thread to discuss this further

 

I find it truly frustrating that despite the evidence and the history of how the separatists have conducted themselves in the past there are still people in this discussion who won't admit that the separatists are responsible

 

Also no offence to anyone but none of us are experts in black boxes. But if the Western international community wants the black boxes there must be a valid reason outside what we have guessed or dismissed. This reason is obviously to add to the consensus that the separatists did indeed shoot down the plane

[obyknven]

Can you frame that perspective in a way that can be falsified?

 

For the record my metric is that if Nationalist Ukrainians were nazis then they'd vote for nazis. They overwhelmingly voted against nazis.

"Not-Nazi" parlament beat left deputy for his pacifist speech.

 

http://youtu.be/yqe8_P8ovFE

 

"Not-Nazi" parlament ban left party ( though they are centrist psudo-left opportunists, but repressions touch even such harmless posers  )  today

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Ukraine

 

http://youtu.be/aTWeN-8WX6g

 

But i understand why you can't recognise Ukrainian Nazism. It's because Ukrainian Nazi and Jewish Nazi (aka Zionists) are  blood brothers, and on the West naming  of Jewish Nazi as Nazi is taboo.

 

[Zoraptor]

The parameters used by black boxes are a matter of public record, easy to look up if one can be bothered to, and indeed various experts have said they're unlikely to provide much relevant information, when experts have been asked.

[Bester]

Rise up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpsqiqXBcw&feature=player_detailpage#t=12

Edited July 22, 2014 by Bester

[Orogun01]

I'm waiting till its been officially announced that the separatists did indeed shoot down the plane before I come back on this thread to discuss this further

 

I find it truly frustrating that despite the evidence and the history of how the separatists have conducted themselves in the past there are still people in this discussion who won't admit that the separatists are responsible

 

Also no offence to anyone but none of us are experts in black boxes. But if the Western international community wants the black boxes there must be a valid reason outside what we have guessed or dismissed. This reason is obviously to add to the consensus that the separatists did indeed shoot down the plane

I was expecting the forums to be more divisive on this matter but it seems no one is buying the story.

Anyways, they'll probably say that the Russians tampered with the blackbox or something.

The real question is whether or not the previous Malaysian airline incident was part of a false flag operation; to the Conspiracy cave! Na na na na na na naaaa.

[Malcador]

Iluminati did it due to the AIDS researchers being on it.

[Bester]

Takhbir!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVeMaoGCDkI

Edited July 22, 2014 by Bester