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Ongoing discussion of Ukraine


Rosbjerg

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In charge of leading you towards your european dream, yes. But we don't want poor and corrupt countries as dead weight in our cozy little european union, it's already tough as it is.

 

I'm afraid you misunderstand again. What I would like is not the EU/NATO, but for my country to get out of debt and become truly independent, not to live on this artificial life support that the EU is keeping us on.

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The rebels have some hot chicks, heh. I've seen pics with her before, but now a video surfaced. Funnily enough, she says that a military craft hid behind a commercial airplane... in JUNE. Heh.

 

 

 

I wonder if she is involved in strip searches :sweat:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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In charge of leading you towards your european dream, yes. But we don't want poor and corrupt countries as dead weight in our cozy little european union, it's already tough as it is.

 

I'm afraid you misunderstand again. What I would like is not the EU/NATO, but for my country to get out of debt and become truly independent, not to live on this artificial life support that the EU is keeping us on.

 

 Trust me Sarex its much better for Serbia to be aligned  economically and politically with the EU than to be opposed to it, if Serbia going this route this is cause to be joyous. Your future is looking bright

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Two more Su-25s downed today.    Ukrainian military needs to fly more SEAD missions.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Two more Su-25s downed today.    Ukrainian military needs to fly more SEAD missions.

 

Not being a military buff myself, I had to look this up. I take it you mean Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses, and not the Salzburg Experimental Academy of Dance.

 

Although I do think we'd all be a lot better off if the Ukrainian government and the separatists would just have a dance-off instead.

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Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.

 

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Someone should make a movie about that. Kind of like Apocalypse Now meets Stomp the Yard.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Two more Su-25s downed today.    Ukrainian military needs to fly more SEAD missions.

 

Not being a military buff myself, I had to look this up. I take it you mean Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses, and not the Salzburg Experimental Academy of Dance.

 

Although I do think we'd all be a lot better off if the Ukrainian government and the separatists would just have a dance-off instead.

 

 

" Salzburg Experimental Academy of Dance"  :lol:

 

That made me laugh 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-lay-out-case-against-russians-1406063846

 

is amusing. same info as yesterday, but different title will no doubt confuse folks who thought US had exonerated russia.

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Two more Su-25s downed today.    Ukrainian military needs to fly more SEAD missions.

 

If the rebels for some reason decided not to use radar-guided SAMs so as not to somehow repeat the MH-17 incident or to discredit claims that they had an SA-11, and used infrared or SACLOS-guided MANPADS or other SHORAD instead, then it would be a bit difficult since anti-radiation missiles are dependent on the threat having a radiating emitter in order to guide to the target. It is possible to geolocate the launch if non-radar based systems are used using advanced IRST and targeting pods, though that does require *someone* with the balls to fly low and troll for fire (hence the old motto of the "Wild Weasels" of yore, "YGBSM." You gotta be s***ing me."

 

wild_weasel_ygbsm_post_cards-r7f55716c9a

Edited by Agiel
Quote
"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-lay-out-case-against-russians-1406063846

 

is amusing. same info as yesterday, but different title will no doubt confuse folks who thought US had exonerated russia.

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Mass media is just government's tool to form public opinion. Lot of people think mass media is supposed to report "the truth". Let's hug and laugh into their face.

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http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-lay-out-case-against-russians-1406063846

 

is amusing. same info as yesterday, but different title will no doubt confuse folks who thought US had exonerated russia.

 

*chuckle*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Mass media is just government's tool to form public opinion. Lot of people think mass media is supposed to report "the truth". Let's hug and laugh into their face.

 

 

So what does represent the truth Bester? How do we get accurately informed?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Could also have been blasted by ZU-23s

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Two more Su-25s downed today.    Ukrainian military needs to fly more SEAD missions.

 

If the rebels for some reason decided not to use radar-guided SAMs so as not to somehow repeat the MH-17 incident or to discredit claims that they had an SA-11, and used infrared or SACLOS-guided MANPADS or other SHORAD instead, then it would be a bit difficult since anti-radiation missiles are dependent on the threat having a radiating emitter in order to guide to the target.

 

 

They don't have radar guided missiles, or barely have any. They might have that Buk, but whether or not it functions is under question. Nevertheless, even if it does, they only have one unit and they don't have the radar platform it's supposed to come with. Buk on its own does have a small radar, but it can only "see" as far as 25 km from itself at 120 degrees in front of itself. So in order to see a target that's flying at 10km altitude, the target has to pass the Buk only a few kilometers away from it, and it should happen in front of the Buk too (and since target locking takes a while because controls are unusable **** from what I've read, it has to fly slowly lol). Considering their large and constantly shifting front line, having 1 Buk and hoping to see an enemy plane fly just over that Buk is like hoping for a miracle. If their only buk does work, that is.

 

They're bringing down frogfoots with heat seeking missiles like the ones launched by Igla.

 

Here's the radar the Buk is supposed to work in tandem with.

 

1405693792768.jpg

Edited by Bester
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Two more Su-25s downed today.    Ukrainian military needs to fly more SEAD missions.

 

If the rebels for some reason decided not to use radar-guided SAMs so as not to somehow repeat the MH-17 incident or to discredit claims that they had an SA-11, and used infrared or SACLOS-guided MANPADS or other SHORAD instead, then it would be a bit difficult since anti-radiation missiles are dependent on the threat having a radiating emitter in order to guide to the target.

 

 

They don't have radar guided missiles, or barely have any. They might have that Buk, but whether or not it functions is under question. Nevertheless, even if it does, they only have one unit and they don't have the radar platform it's supposed to come with. Buk on its own does have a small radar, but it can only "see" as far as 25 km from itself at 120 degrees in front of itself. So in order to see a target that's flying at 10km altitude, the target has to pass the Buk only a few kilometers away from it, and it should happen in front of the Buk too (and since target locking takes a while because controls are unusable **** from what I've read, it has to fly slowly lol). Considering their large and constantly shifting front line, having 1 Buk and hoping to see an enemy plane fly just over that Buk is like hoping for a miracle. If their only buk does work, that is.

 

They're bringing down frogfoots with heat seeking missiles like the ones launched by Igla.

 

Here's the radar the Buk is supposed to work in tandem with.

 

 

 

misinformation

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/buk-missiles-used-to-shoot-down-mh17-2014-7

 

the sa-11 missile launcher can operate as a stand-alone platform. please read the graphic taken from a Jane's source. inability to accurate identify aircraft is a limitation o' the stand-alone sa-11... which were exactly the problem. oops.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId926428

 

9S35 "Fire Dome" SA-11 TELAR radar detection range 100km. Track and illumination range 95km.

 

And I've yet to see anything that disproves the notion that the rebels had a "Snow Drift" search radar, either from Ukrainian or Russian stocks.

Quote
"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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live and learn: the russians shoulda' thought ahead and given the separatist the part o' the system with the more advanced IFF interrogator. 'course getting the separatist up-to-speed so that they could utilize the stand-alone launcher were probable a difficult enough task. 

 

*sigh*

 

covertly supplying arms were so much easier a few decades ago.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps keep in mind that the alternative is that the ukranians managed to get their complete buk system deep into separatist territory near snizhae, where they then fired on a commercial airliner and then managed to fight or sneak back to ukranian territory without anybody noticing. somebody got a tinfoil hat?

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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somebody got a tinfoil hat?

I've got some foil you can make one out of, but there is barbecue sauce and small remnants of brisket on it.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

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Isn't the alternative that the launcher was stolen by the separatists ?  Not that that is the case, but is more likely than some looney stuff.

Edited by Malcador

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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"Isn't the alternative that the launcher was stolen by the separatists ?"

 

am not seeing your point? based on unconverted evidence, we know that a missile were launched from somewhere near snizhae at approximate the same time the malaysina airliner went down. based on reasonable evidence, the likely missile launcher were an sa-11. is it within the realm o' possibility that in spite o' the contemporaneous missile launching there were another cause for the plane exploding in midair without any kinda warning? sure, but am gonna use occam's razor for the moment. so, other than the conspiracy nutters who claims the plane were filled with dead bodies and then blown up via a bomb by the US or the illuminati, that leaves 2 likely options and a less likely 3rd.

 

2 options:

 

separatists fired a missile from an sa-11 that downed the malaysian airliner

 

or

 

ukranians fired a missile from their own sa-11 which downed the malaysian airliner.

 

option 3 seems unnecessarily convoluted, but russians had the necessary hardware and access to the site from which the missile were launched. am gonna ignore option 3 as it boarders on the ridiculous. 

 

am not speculating 'bout how the separatists got their weapon or their training. am not asking why the folks shot down the plane. am simply observing that the sa-11 that shot down the airliner were either under ukranian or separatist control when it were fired... and for it to have been ukranian requires the near magical transportation o' the sa-11 system through separatist controlled territory where they then shot down a commercial plane, and then retreated to ukranian held territory without anybody the wiser for their depravity... all o' which strains credulity as much as does the russian option we discarded.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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misinformation

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/buk-missiles-used-to-shoot-down-mh17-2014-7

 

the sa-11 missile launcher can operate as a stand-alone platform. please read the graphic taken from a Jane's source. inability to accurate identify aircraft is a limitation o' the stand-alone sa-11... which were exactly the problem. oops.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

The information in that article doesn't contradict what I said. The rebels don't have the radar, only the launcher. The Buk can theoretically operate without that radar, since the launcher has his own small radar, but as far as practical application of radarless Buk goes, I already described its big limitations.

 

 

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId926428

 

9S35 "Fire Dome" SA-11 TELAR radar detection range 100km. Track and illumination range 95km.

From your own source:

Operating autonomously, the 9S35 will take 4 seconds to sweep a 120° sector

The 9S35 Fire Dome provides a limited search and acquisition capability

 

And this is exactly what I've said. Without the radar, it's almost useless.

 

 

 

And I've yet to see anything that disproves the notion that the rebels had a "Snow Drift" search radar, either from Ukrainian or Russian stocks.

And I've yet to see anything that proves the notion that the rebels had the radar. There were pictures of the Buk taken by people on the street, but not a single picture or even a testimony of the radar has been spotted. They simply don't have one. If they had it, there would've been an absolute no-fly zone over Donetsk right now.

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s keep in mind that the alternative is that the ukranians managed to get their complete buk system deep into separatist territory near snizhae, where they then fired on a commercial airliner and then managed to fight or sneak back to ukranian territory without anybody noticing. somebody got a tinfoil hat?

 

Well the point was that wasn't the alternative, with regards to how they got a hold of the weapons, which may or may not be Russia.  How the weapons were sourced is relevant in all this, after all, what with talk of covertly supplied weaponry and Russian responsibility for how they were used (amusing concept of responsibility if carried out fully, too).

Edited by Malcador

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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"And this is exactly what I've said. Without the radar, it's almost useless."

 

your conclusions is not supported by information. agiel link shows that the radar on the stand-alone is indeed more limited than the complete system. 4 seconds to cover 120 degrees with a range o' +32km? that is useless? 33,000 ft is 10km up, which is no issue as max altitude is within range. plane is traveling about 16 kilometers per minute? am not seeing a problem with the math. our link observes that the stand-alone is capable but doesn't have advanced IFF, which would explain why the clowns shot down a passenger jet. all-in-all, am not thinking you has not proved what you think you has proved. in point o' fact, you has helped illustrate more clearly how/why the separatists would mistake a jetliner for... something else. so, thanks?

 

as for malcador comments... am not understanding. at this point, the most significant question would appear to be who were in control o' the missile system that shot down the airplane, yes? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps one of these days we will learn to spell "separatists" correct... sheesh

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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