Jump to content

Ongoing discussion of Ukraine


Rosbjerg

Recommended Posts

Guess that Unity party is re-activated since 1999.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They're the only neo nazi party in the rada, the others are just little or big N Nationalists up to some fringe fascists.

 

That 1% was in the presidential election, it's a common talking point in defence of the Ukrainian moderation, but actually means nothing at all. Unfortunately for the spin, Tyanybok got 1% last time he ran for Pres too, in 2010, but then Svoboda got 10+% in the parliamentary election and won constituencies as well, in 2012, and is now the second largest party in the government.

 

Wait, 1000 Ukrainian soldiers get encircled and then 1500-2000 of them get killed? Holy crap, the rebels are killing them twice!

 

The 1000 encircled seems to be legit, at least, as even the Ukrainians admitted it and the maths adds up. What exactly happened to the other half who were trying to break out and the rest of the brigade (should be around 3000 men, if wikipedia can be relied on) is unclear, but it is pretty clear that a very significant number surrendered/ have been interned in Russia so it cannot have been going well. 2000 overall casualties- ie dead/ injured/ captured- might be marginally credible, 2000 dead certainly isn't.

Edited by Zoraptor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting pretty sick of people going unanimously after Russia, nicely forgetting we HAVE the war to thank to a US/EU backed coup-detat on a legally elected government.

But he was elected because he promised that Ukraine will make laws which will allow them to join EU and he decide to not sign them. If he would follow what he promised there should not be any coup

 

*howg*

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By that logic America should be in full revolt right now...

Dont know what exactly you mean but if there was promised some big decision which some high politican promised and then didnt follow yeah, there can be if there is enough people complain about it. It seems logical dont you think?

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dont know what exactly you mean but if there was promised some big decision which some high politican promised and then didnt follow yeah, there can be if there is enough people complain about it. It seems logical dont you think?

 

You will agree that there is a difference between complaining and protesting that leads to a coup.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Dont know what exactly you mean but if there was promised some big decision which some high politican promised and then didnt follow yeah, there can be if there is enough people complain about it. It seems logical dont you think?

 

You will agree that there is a difference between complaining and protesting that leads to a coup.

 

yeah, you are complaining if its not that big issue to move your ass and proptest

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 1000 encircled seems to be legit, at least, as even the Ukrainians admitted it and the maths adds up. What exactly happened to the other half who were trying to break out and the rest of the brigade (should be around 3000 men, if wikipedia can be relied on) is unclear, but it is pretty clear that a very significant number surrendered/ have been interned in Russia so it cannot have been going well. 2000 overall casualties- ie dead/ injured/ captured- might be marginally credible, 2000 dead certainly isn't.

 

Officially Kiev lost 500 men in this war. They have been caught hiding the real casualties many times, and they keep doing it. By unofficial estimates, they've already lost over 6000 men. Another serious problem for Kiev is that they've lost around 40 Frogfoots and around 20 Crocodiles, which is officially half of what they have (the real number of what they have that can actually fly is probably running extremely thin by now).

 

And now these 2 huge encirclements.

 

And how they treat their own army. They don't send provisions, ammunition, nothing. Then those people who are being shelled for days and have no food end up going across the border. They've been told that they're fighting Russians and Chechens, yet once they cross the border, they're met with proper food, they're given a shower, Russians have built barracks for them and greeted them warmly. Then if they don't ask for political refuge, they go back to Ukraine a few days later. And in Ukraine they're met as traitors and get real jail time.

 

Kiev might completely lose this war by spring, it seems. What they're doing is so utterly bad that I sometimes wonder if the CIA advisors are there at all.

 

 

 

They're the only neo nazi party in the rada, the others are just little or big N Nationalists up to some fringe fascists..

Yeah, well, you can argue the details, but the facts of Ukrainian life are mind blowing. Just a few days ago 200 "activists" from Svoboda attacked people during Ani Lorak's concert (because she also gave concerts in Russia). The cops came, a real fist fight ensued, they managed to arrest 5 "activists". The next day the cops who made the arrest get fired, and the "activists" get released.

So I don't really care how many percents Svoboda has. De facto, they have all rights to perform actual pogroms.

 

Their main national slogan right now is "Hail Ukraine" and "Ukraine Above All", which is just Deutschland Uber Alles.

Their next most popular slogan is "One Language, One Nation, One Fatherland", which also happens to be a copy of Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer.

 

And they keep yelling those slogans everywhere, like they're some fanatics, in all situations, like Allah Akhbar for the muslims. It's mindblowing for me. Their ministers end their speeches with Hail Ukraine all the time. I feel like I'm in some surrealist reality.

Edited by Bester
IE Mod for Pillars of Eternity: link
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Soviet Russia... Russian responce to Western sanctions cause sudden butthurt to West lol.

 

RUSSIA MULLS BAN ON EUROPEAN TRANS-SIBERIAN FLIGHTS AFTER SANCTIONS

A person close to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that “any unfriendly measures by the EU, including those in the area of air transportation, we’ll be studied and won’t remain without a response.”

Most nonstop flights between Europe and Asia cross through the Siberian Federal District, which saves airliners at least 4 hours in flight time to Tokyo, Japan and Seoul, South Korea. The deal was made in the 1970s under Soviet rule, and saves air carriers about $30,000 per flight.

British Airways, Air France and Lufthansa are the biggest EU airlines. Lufthansa said it could potentially lose more than€1 billion in three months if it does not use trans-Siberian routes, according to Forbes.The three air carriers told RT they weren’t commenting on a possible block on European flights as they don’t have any information.

http://sreaves32.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/russia-mulls-ban-on-european-trans-siberian-flights-after-sanctions/

20140806144342_4_http-videocdn.itar-tass

 

 

 

Russia bans agricultural imports from west in tit-for-tat sanctions move

Russia is Europe's second largest market for food and drink and has been an important consumer of Polish pig meat and Dutch fruit and vegetables. Exports of food and raw materials to Russia were worth €12.2bn (£9.7bn) in 2013, following several years of double-digit growth.

The UK is less likely to lose out; in 2013 its biggest food and drink export was £17m of frozen fish, followed by £5.7m of cheese and £5.3m of coffee.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/russia-bans-imports-eu-us-sanctions

 

http://youtu.be/x2PtLVN-rgc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys, if you want to post something relevant, at least use some languange which can be normaly translated. I cant read a **** of azbuka

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys, if you want to post something relevant, at least use some languange which can be normaly translated. I cant read a **** of azbuka

 

What !!! You mean you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian...wow Dude you really need to embrace these global and important languages, don't you realize you can't function in a global world without these linguistics skills !!!

:biggrin:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Guys, if you want to post something relevant, at least use some languange which can be normaly translated. I cant read a **** of azbuka

 

What !!! You mean you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian...wow Dude you really need to embrace these global and important languages, don't you realize you can't function in a global world without these linguistics skills !!!

:biggrin:

 

One grow strange aversion against azbuka after 50 years of occupation

  • Like 1

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Guys, if you want to post something relevant, at least use some languange which can be normaly translated. I cant read a **** of azbuka

 

What !!! You mean you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian...wow Dude you really need to embrace these global and important languages, don't you realize you can't function in a global world without these linguistics skills !!!

:biggrin:

 

Nice example of  arrogant colonial supermacists.  It's really disgusting behaviour for any progressive people, but in present times nothing progressive exist in Western consumption society.

Just remark about spreading of  english language in world. Let's see languages of such country as Pakistan. This is paradise for linguists, rich ancient cultures and languages... and all this completely f****d because of colonialsm. Moar here.

http://viewpointonline.net/2014/05/urdu-english-used-as-tools-to-oppress-working-classes/547-urdu-english-used-as-tools-to-oppress-working-classes

In other words in many places of world people can beat you for such speech.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SO not to be so onesided, there are some valid arguments about MH17 being shoot down by Ukraine ariplane

 

http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925

 

However, I am not sure how can SU-25 shoot with cannons from side plane which fly almost same max speed as SU-25

Edited by Chilloutman

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It probably wouldn't have been an Su-25, it is relatively slow, and has a significantly lower service ceiling than any large commercial airliner. But Ukraine does have both Su-27 and MiG-29 which have a 30mm cannon, more than appropriate service ceiling and far greater speed. And you'd send them after a plane before a Su-25, which is more ground attack.

 

It'd be completely bonkers anyway, as it would either mean a false flag op or an attempt to hit Putin, and either would be crazy. Though the alternative doesn't exactly make a lot of sense either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well those holes coud be created after plane crashed by separatists. It doesnt sound too complicated if you add to it that they dont let anyone near plane crash for days

 

to add to SU-25 - yes its slow and it have lower ceiling (in papers) but in right hands and with good equipment its still possible to reach that height. Disscussion around SU-25 is in place because it was claimed by russian side that they pick it up on radar

Edited by Chilloutman

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New clashes between Maidaners and government forces in Kiev, riots are continued. Go Maidan! Go!

http://youtu.be/vYNYiG9noo8

 

We do want continue of amoral circus with EU/US politicians, how they justify using of force against peaceful Maidaners while they so blamed previous government for same thing. Show must go on! Psaki! We all here in Russia are your fans, tell moar of your wonderfull jokes!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Guys, if you want to post something relevant, at least use some languange which can be normaly translated. I cant read a **** of azbuka

 

What !!! You mean you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian...wow Dude you really need to embrace these global and important languages, don't you realize you can't function in a global world without these linguistics skills !!!

:biggrin:

 

Nice example of  arrogant colonial supermacists.  It's really disgusting behaviour for any progressive people, but in present times nothing progressive exist in Western consumption society.

Just remark about spreading of  english language in world. Let's see languages of such country as Pakistan. This is paradise for linguists, rich ancient cultures and languages... and all this completely f****d because of colonialsm. Moar here.

http://viewpointonline.net/2014/05/urdu-english-used-as-tools-to-oppress-working-classes/547-urdu-english-used-as-tools-to-oppress-working-classes

In other words in many places of world people can beat you for such speech.

 

 

Nah, nothing arrogant about it. Just stating the facts, Russian isn't considered an international language of business. Sorry, you will have to learn to deal with it :)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well those holes coud be created after plane crashed by separatists. It doesnt sound too complicated if you add to it that they dont let anyone near plane crash for days

I'm no expert, but I have been told that such things are actually very difficult to fake convincingly, because the blast decompression/ percussive damage which is evident on the wreckage has to happen after the shot damage, if it's really been shot, so you get scoring, fire damage, dents and the like occurring over the bullet holes. If it's faked, then that type of damage is almost impossible to fake convincingly. Certainly, obtaining a 30 mm cannon and firing a few shots would not do the job.

 

to add to SU-25 - yes its slow and it have lower ceiling (in papers) but in right hands and with good equipment its still possible to reach that height. Disscussion around SU-25 is in place because it was claimed by russian side that they pick it up on radar

Other sources do have Su-27s being around, and escorting other airliners.

 

There's too little information to know, it's possible the Russians thought it was an Su-25 on a ground attack mission so assigned it as that when it was something else, or that it was an Su-25. If it were there at all. If it were an Su-25 it would certainly support it being a rogue operation, you wouldn't use one if you had a choice given the alternatives available.

 

Can't say that I'm particularly convinced either way. The Russian version actually has rather more direct, concrete, evidence for it (amazingly) than the Ukrainian one as they have released actual pictures of Buks in situ in a relevant area and under Ukrainian control but that's obviously from a partisan source. The only 'impartial' evidence is on those roosterpit segments, and requires a somewhat convoluted sequence of plane shot by Buk, then finished off by an Su-25. It would explain some of the Ukrainian's behaviour and some of the odd omissions in evidence provided (no US spy pictures, no air controller voice, no CVR audio release) and why the Ukrainians are so keen to capture the wreckage that they're actively shelling it. But it ain't really convincing overall.

 

OTOH the alternative relies on Ukrainian provided phone taps and social media postings when it might reasonably be expected that a 'smoking gun' could and would be provided via US intelligence assets, if it existed. The lack of any satellite imagery in support is telling. So neither is convincing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...