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Ongoing discussion of Ukraine


Rosbjerg

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A bigger expense than any half-assed sanctions would be absorbing East Ukraine and it's 14 000 000 people. Trust me the people in Moscow who bother to count are far more afraid of this than of Obama.

 

That's an interesting perspective and worth noting. We sometimes discuss how Russia wants to annex East Ukraine, but maybe the economic consequences of them doing that are something that actually is the reason they don't?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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If Putin wants to invade he'll do it, just as he did in Crimea to an anaemic reponse. He has no need to invade 'Ukraine', now, he'd just recognise Donbass as independent and send 'peacekeepers' at their request. He may wait for the Kurds to declare independence and use western support of that as a precedent, he may not. Either way the approval for invasion of Ukraine is redundant at this point.

Finally, something we can agree on. That this is yet another sham, to advance Russia sea side real-estate interests. So what do you suggest the international response should be to those threats?
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Nothing? I've been pretty consistent in saying that any bits of Ukraine that want to break off should be able to and splitting the country along the east west divide was probably the best solution, from the outset. Certainly they've done an excellent job in Kiev of making sure that if a majority of people in Donbass didn't hate them before they do now, and even the western journalists have made that clear, there's now massive resentment and outright loathing of Kiev throughout the region.

 

There really isn't anything that the west can do to prevent Russia intervening, if they decide to (at this point I think direct intervention is unless there is a major shift in events, if they were going to it would have been in May), since the only way to definitively stop them is to intervene militarily themselves. Which they won't do. They won't get any further sanctions through in the current climate either whatever the posturing of Anders the Dane and John the Kerry, neither France nor Germany have any stomach for them if they have an excuse not to.

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Nothing? I've been pretty consistent in saying that any bits of Ukraine that want to break off should be able to and splitting the country along the east west divide was probably the best solution, from the outset. Certainly they've done an excellent job in Kiev of making sure that if a majority of people in Donbass didn't hate them before they do now, and even the western journalists have made that clear, there's now massive resentment and outright loathing of Kiev throughout the region.

 

There really isn't anything that the west can do to prevent Russia intervening, if they decide to (at this point I think direct intervention is unless there is a major shift in events, if they were going to it would have been in May), since the only way to definitively stop them is to intervene militarily themselves. Which they won't do. They won't get any further sanctions through in the current climate either whatever the posturing of Anders the Dane and John the Kerry, neither France nor Germany have any stomach for them if they have an excuse not to.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying in this post , yet you still seem to be in denial about the impact that the sanctions had in preventing Russia from further interference in Ukraine?

 

Is it  that you don't think sanctions can effect a countries economy and cause them to rethink political strategy?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I'm curious Oby, does it pay anything or is it like a labour of love kinda thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

(sorry for being off topic)

Excellent insight from the Turk. And Putin has as much plastic in his face as Megan Fox. Collagen make you strong like bull! What a conceited ****. No wonder Hillary rags on this guy. A weak target is easy to play. Russia needs to back the hell off, this isn't the 19th century.

Edited by licketysplit
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I'm curious Oby, does it pay anything or is it like a labour of love kinda thing. 

 

Honestly, if Putin is paying people to do that, he's being taken for a ride. Just go to UC Berkeley or Santa Cruz and you'll find kids who'll do that for free.

Quote
"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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Excellent insight from the Turk. And Putin has as much plastic in his face as Megan Fox. Collagen make you strong like bull! What a conceited ****. No wonder Hillary rags on this guy. A weak target is easy to play. Russia needs to back the hell off, this isn't the 19th century.

 

ROFL!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Today not only ISIS burn arses of US puppets, but militia of Novorossia do same thing.  Ukrainian army last fer weeks trying separate East Ukrainian republics from Russian border and totally surround them.

BsQDLRaCIAAKdm8.jpg

 But as usual they do this "blitzkrieg" too slow and too stupid ( they left few bottlenecks ) - East Ukrainians  break their communications and surround attacking group of Ukrainian Army near Russian borders in 3 salients. Columns of 24 and 79 Ukrainian brigades completely destroyed during this today.

 

BsQtqjvIEAAgP0r.jpg

 

BsQtqknIUAI5yOc.jpg

 

original.jpg

 

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Gee, those Russian designed tanks look a wee bit fragile.

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Ukrainians make me lol, except moments when they shelled own 500 000 - 2700 000 populated opposition towns by MLRS as part of war against mythic Russian troops/KGB agents/Alien invaders

(proofs with guro and other non-child content link1 link2 civilians corpses moar civilians corpses(only because Western media keep silence about this))

.

 

They begin biting European hands now! It's expectable because they are non-civilized savage cannibals, losers and have constant butthurt from permanent failures. As usually they try find cause of own failures not in own ****ty behavior,  but in neighbors. Today they begin hate Germans.

n369ATSZ_qo.jpg

Just f*k off to Merkel. Typical Ukrainian etiquette. 

 

10440092_1430882063858478_85042948675064

 They say Germany and EU inhabited by   same subhumans as Russia are. Germans are mongoloid horde mongrel's. Europe non-white! Europeans are retarded rednecks! :lol:  :lol:  :lol: .

 

 

-iwNcuFlgl0.jpg

 

rT2P3_Ihreo.jpg

 

212b3-merk.jpg

Moar Ukrainian love to Germans. 

 

Other news. East Ukrainian militia learn how to burn most modern Ukrainian tanks

c60bea88a9510e83269680e5d375a6f4.gif

 

fb440ea553cc338919333c21375c9f49.jpg

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:rolleyes: . NATO forced own "members"  (East European "allies" and other poorfags as Spain/Greece buy US/German weapons and serve as cannon fodder for glory of NWO ). For example everything is bad in Spanish economics and no military treat exist from side  of Russia... They have quite big amount of leo tanks, but buy moar and moar now. 

 

 

Spain’s 30 billion-euro ($41 billion) plan to buy heavy armament, including Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH’s Leopard battle tanks, will put the country’s defense budget under pressure, according to a report from opposition party UPyD.

The payments on 19 programs for purchasing military equipment will double from almost 1 billion euros per year in 2014 and 2015, to as much as 2.1 billion euros in 2020, UPyD said in a report citing data from the Defense Ministry. That compares with an annual defense budget of 9 billion euros per year, the report said.

Same story with Poland - they militarized too much during last 5-10 years and now play role of cannon fodder in East Ukrainian massacre (and in other Western wars for "democracy"). Also everyone can remember how US force own "allies" buy such useless junk as F-35.

Putin do this? Lol, this is just nonsense.

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Ukrainian army fail offensive against Novorossiya. Northern group has been surrounded - NOD capture Oleksandrivka

06E0jYUC4zc.jpg

 

Southern group has been surrounded also.

106425_600.png

Scale of military catastrophe become fair in nearest month, but every day situation become only worse for junta forces. US military advisors who plan this offensive are idiots, they can war only against half-naked cave-dwellers, during 20 years of "wars" against very weak opponents US military machine degraded very much, especially officers and HQ.

 

Meanwhile OSCE visits Lugansk, see first hand indiscriminate shelling of areas with no military objective.  Thanks to Kai Vittrup for going there to see first hand, it had to be very difficult for him. He arrived at noon and began to look at damage, shortly thereafter he was surrounded by a hundred people handing him shrapnel telling their stories.  At one point a woman carries out a pink stuffed rabbit completely soaked in a child's blood and asks him to take to Poroshenko.

http://youtu.be/pDmVbSdhu_k



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Is oby an alt of a dev or something. How is it acceptable to portray all Germans as Nazis and Ukrainians who like Germany as Nazi sympathisers?

"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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I just leave this here.

Map of Iodine Deficiency in Ukraine. Red regions is where everything is bad.

Bez-imeni-11.png

UNICEF say everything is bad too

http://www.unicef.org/ukraine/activities_11389.html

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/iodine-deficiency-problem-remains-unsolved-in-ukraine-312122.html

 

Iodine Deficiency cause mental damage.

http://www.infowars.com/iodine-deficiency-during-pregnancy-impacts-childrens-brain-development/

 

Map of "Maidan" riots on Ukraine.

wnc5HFjZz9E.jpg

 

Ukrianians are not nation or ethnicity, they are totalitarian sect. Alleluia!

http://youtu.be/p4jpRiix4ds

 

Ukraine is homeland of many other dangerous totalitarian sect's also.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/07/world/crackdown-faced-by-ukrainian-cult.html

http://centerdialog.dp.ua/en/content/category/10/18/44/

http://ruc.udc.es/dspace/bitstream/2183/9696/1/CC_37_art_18.pdf

 

Personally i do want  inclusion of Ukraine into EU, it's must generate huge amount of lul'z in perspective.

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:rolleyes: . NATO forced own "members"  (East European "allies" and other poorfags as Spain/Greece buy US/German weapons and serve as cannon fodder for glory of NWO ). For example everything is bad in Spanish economics and no military treat exist from side  of Russia... They have quite big amount of leo tanks, but buy moar and moar now. 

 

 

Spain’s 30 billion-euro ($41 billion) plan to buy heavy armament, including Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH’s Leopard battle tanks, will put the country’s defense budget under pressure, according to a report from opposition party UPyD.

The payments on 19 programs for purchasing military equipment will double from almost 1 billion euros per year in 2014 and 2015, to as much as 2.1 billion euros in 2020, UPyD said in a report citing data from the Defense Ministry. That compares with an annual defense budget of 9 billion euros per year, the report said.

Same story with Poland - they militarized too much during last 5-10 years and now play role of cannon fodder in East Ukrainian massacre (and in other Western wars for "democracy"). Also everyone can remember how US force own "allies" buy such useless junk as F-35.

Putin do this? Lol, this is just nonsense.

 

I think you are confused as to what are the reasons for Poland, the Baltic states et.c. to be in NATO. The US likely cares very little about Russia as a military threat. To give an example of this, consider the missile shield which was supposed to be put up in Poland/Czech Republic. This idea was scrapped by Obama in 2009 after minimal Russian pressure (although Bush was more insistent... Might have something to do with what Poland did in "the coalition of the willing"). This missile system was not intended to protect the US, but European NATO countries. Whatever NATO does in Europe is not because of the insistence of the US, but because of European NATO members. The US would like to spend as little as possible on a continent that is militarily pretty much the most stable place on earth anyway. The East European countries are not really "cannon fodder", or serving any military role at all for that matter. They are simply a liability NATO has agreed to take on, to protect them from Russian aggression on their own insistence, to preserve global stability. Compare Georgia. Georgia has figuratively been banging the NATO door like crazies, screaming to be let in, just like Poland and the Baltics before them. The US is sceptical towards Georgia because as I said earlier, they would add nothing to NATO, letting them in would just mean a liability to protect them against Russia - and NATO is thinking that a FUBAR border incident scenario looks too likely (just look at the previous war in Georgia). Poland might have served some small purpose as a part of the "coalition of the willing" but in reality, I think Poland, as well as the Baltics, are just a liability militarily.

 

So with the current situation in Ukraine, Putin seems to do all he can to push Ukraine away from Russia. He looks like a petty thief who is more content with running away with some scraps of land in his arms than having the entirety of Ukraine politically on his side. He should have denounced Yanukovich as the corrupt kleptocrat he is the moment he was about to lose power, then Ukraine might even have been likely to elect a somewhat pro-Russian president afterwards. EU is in no condition to bring in Ukraine, and NATO should be very wary of doing so with the current anti-Russian mood provoked by Putin's actions, since a border incident between a NATO Ukraine and Russia is the last thing they want. Nevertheless EU and NATO popularity have surged immensely from previously very low levels in Ukraine, all due to Putin's poor handling of the Yanukovich debacle. It's a gift handed to NATO by Putin, for no other reason than sheer stupidity. He seems to be using every action at his disposal to make sure Ukraine stays as far away from Russia as possible. If anything, it seems the situation in East Ukraine is not at all planned by Putin but a NATO trap for him to make him alienate Russia from Ukraine, to divide them over a petty conflict over some scraps of land.

 

The same can be said of increased NATO sympathies in Sweden and Finland. Sweden and Finland are currently countries which are not part of NATO, and which would obviously never ever (just think about the odds...) attack Russia militarily. The best thing Putin could do is to keep any troops away from the borders and not undertake any offensive exercises. This way the military budget of the countries would eventually atrophy into nothing and they would be even less of a military consideration than they already are. Instead the opposite is happening. Another military base has just been built close to the border of Finland and aerial exercises made in the Baltic Sea against countries which pose no threat at all to Russia in any way, which militarily defies any common sense (and if you really have military intentions, you should not be this obvious and deliberately blunt about your intentions). It's about as subtle as if Putin was to run up to the prime ministers, shouting "DURR PLEASE JOIN NATO DURR!!". This has been an unexpected blessing for the pro-NATO, increase military spending crowd, which otherwise politically is considered the lunatic fringe in both Sweden and Finland.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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Oh lovely. 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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This conflict would be easier to figure out, at least a tad, if every side weren't using the same weaponry.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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"The military commander of the rebels, a Russian named Igor Strelkov, had written on his social media page shortly before the report of the airliner being downed that his forces had brought down an Antonov An-26 in the same area. It is a turboprop transport plane of a type used by Ukraine's forces."

 

...

"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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