Some questions about undeath in PoE

[DCParry]

 

 

 

Gromnir, the undead side effect is not the reason animancy is banned by most governments. IIRC it's banned because of "religious" reasons, and likely has been banned as such for much longer than the undead creation process has been around.

yet another limit on how common undead would be: religion. if there is religious reasons to find animacy deplorable, then am guessing we has yet other reason to shrink our pool o' potential willing victims. 

 

some folks is trying to have cake and it it too. you want undead creation mysterious enough so that otherwise reasonable rich people would be hoodwinked into making themselves a guinea pig for an animancer. at the same time, you want undead widespread enough to be a crpg staple monster. if you make mysterious and obscure, then you is reinforcing Gromnir's criticism that undead necessarily is gonna be rare. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

See, I personally don't care if undead are "widespread enough to be a crpg staple monster." Given the lore description of them it seems unlikely, and I don't see why that's a problem.

 

it's a problem 'cause Gromnir said that based on descriptions given to us thus far, corporeal undead would be rare. folks disagreed. that is how we has got to this point.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Well, we should remember there is a difference between rare and 'rare'. Your average cooper or cobbler might never see an undead, and only have experience with the folk explanation (whatever that might be.. watch out little Jimmy, you keep doing that and your palms will get hairy and you will become a fampyr!).

 

As for the rarity of for the PC, we probably have stacks of them piled up in the woodshed outside the keep.  ;-)

 

 

Also, there are plenty of other desperate scenarios, literature and folklore is full of characters who are unable to let their own loved ones die, so we could have anything from the pretty young wife who is not fully aware of her condition because it was forced upon her by her grieving and loving/brutish, controlling and abusive husband who couldn't let her die, the young lord who fell off his horse on his 11th birthday who remarkably recovered is doing fine now, but he seems to be eyeing the serving ladies quite intently, but we are all sure it is just puberty and so on... 

[Azmodiuz]

I hope we get to explore the reality of educating people and there misunderstood direction towards undeath, I really hope we get stuck in a debate philosophically somewhere in he game about it. It could easily be used to portray a setting or define a character.

We've all faced necromancers raising the dead etc.. but its interesting to think theres people out there convincing a necromancer against his better judgement to turn them into deaders, and later he broods all alone suffering in his own misery for being weak and giving into thier demands and later witnessing thier slower demise of thgier soul and mental state as he blames himself etc...

remember that character from BG who was like always complaining about life, and how vain it was etc..  *insert wink* well, I think such a personality in PoE would be neat, but with a twist, as mentioned. (though, its again , probably anouther cliche), but maybe under it all, its not his love for life that makes him regret, but the lack of proper afterlife for his patients.... idk.. just my 2C

[Silent Winter]

this real world stuff people is trying to make analogous, ain't.

sure, yes - and any analogy will break if stretched to its limits.

The analogy was merely to establish that (some) people do stupid things even if they know the end result will be bad.  How stupid and how bad are now up for debate

 

IF it were widely known that the animancy immortality treatment always led to undeath, THEN more people would think twice.

(There's also the question of whether reincarnation of the soul would be attractive.  Some people may see the loss of their memories as the loss of their self and prefer to keep going as long as possible in this life.  Do we know (in PoE) if reincarnation is always Human->Human / Elf->Elf? Or even Sentient-being->Sentient being?  Some may not like the idea of becoming a frog, skuldr or whatever, seeing it as the ultimate death of their current self anyway.  I guess it depends how people view it.  Take a chance that this time the animancer's got it right.)

 

Your analogy with the hockey player leaping into the stands also breaks - we're not talking about famous people in an age that tracks their every statistic (and whose feeding habits are then witnessed by a large crowd in an arena). The local lord will be famous in his sphere of influence, but the general populace won't be privy to his dealings with animancers.  By the time he goes all Dargul/Gul on them, he may well have fled the mansion and be unrecognisable.

 

So I think it comes down to whether or not people would know or strongly suspect the link, and whether or not the animancers were up-front about what they were doing ("immortality? no, no, I'm not one of *those* animancers, I'm just going to give your soul a surgicial scrub that will clear up your gout, yes sir")

[Gromnir]

 

this real world stuff people is trying to make analogous, ain't.

sure, yes - and any analogy will break if stretched to its limits.

The analogy was merely to establish that (some) people do stupid things even if they know the end result will be bad.  How stupid and how bad are now up for debate

 

 

if the analogy is so general, it loses meaning. people do stupid things, but analogizing to drinking coffee? really? 

 

as for hockey player, keep in mind that the undead lose control of appetites and have increasing cognitive problems. if the undead thing is all mysterious and lord is hoodwinked, he may not even know he is undead at first. some o' these transformed nobles is gonna screw up, and they is gonna screw up obvious... especially if they is anywhere near as common as some of you want them to be. doesn't take thousands o' public and obvious blunders to create a panic. takes a handful... or even just one. if nobles is the ones being turned into undead by animancers, they is the ones most likely to create a panic when one eventually goes nutters and eats his chamberlain, or whomever. bath salts can create panics with fictional accounts o' people going insane and cannibal. genuine and real accounts of nobles going insane, becoming immortal undead, and eating folks is gonna create more or less terror? 

 

c'mon guys. we get the devil's advocate thing. we also understand some folks wanting to give obsidian the benefit o' the doubt, but either this undead thing is missing some important details we ain't yet privy to, or it is gonna need be a very rare occurrence in the game to be reasonable and rational.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PrimeJunta]

c'mon guys. we get the devil's advocate thing. we also understand some folks wanting to give obsidian the benefit o' the doubt, but either this undead thing is missing some important details we ain't yet privy to, or it is gonna need be a very rare occurrence in the game to be reasonable and rational.

 

Or Obsidian just hasn't thought it through.

 

I'm inclined to think that we just don't know all the important details. Obsidian is generally pretty careful with their lore; it would not be like them to leave a glaring hole like this.

[Lephys]

Why are you so stuck on the coffee thing, Gromnir? Did I miss the part where I presented a thesis statement of "Becoming undead is like drinking coffee," then presented an entire paper revolving around that idea?

 

It was a simple example. Today, with ridiculously more means of communication than in ye old fantasy kingdom, almost anyone can read about almost ANY scientific findings, instantly, and still people doubt them. And yet, in ye old kingdom, somehow everyone's going to be privy to extremely precise information, all the time, and know definitively that Nobleman Barcloft definitely affiliated with that animancer in the town square who's handing out flyers and waving at everyone, and that he subsequently devolved into an undead, over the course of the next several years, and somehow, everyone in the entire land has a dossier on that, complete with facts directly from the medical examiner, etc.?

 

I don't get it. People in real, actual history believed people to be witches, even though none of them were really magical witches, AND people still continued to practice what they believed to be witchcraft.

 

I'm not getting how the majority of the populous being suspicious/afraid of the general idea of something (like animancy) somehow = no one will ever, ever do it.

 

Is humanity a hivemind?

 

Conspiracy theorists. That's another group I just thought of that would possibly try it. "That's just what they WANT you to think. All the top nobles live forever, they just give the ones they don't like the bad formula."

[Gromnir]

I don't get it. People in real, actual history believed people to be witches, even though none of them were really magical witches, AND people still continued to practice what they believed to be witchcraft.

 

name 'em. name the people who actual admitted to being witches in spite o' fact that they believed that they were consigning their soul to eternal damnation.

 

we will wait for you to compile your list.

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

how many you come up with in the history of forever? am not talking druids or high priestess of ishtar or whatever. we is talking souls and witchcraft, so lets keep same. name us some bona fide witches serving the dark powers. oh, and make sure that your witches is rich and or nobles. impoverished peoples who has been treated unfair by society and their peers don't fit the criteria, do they? so, give us the list o' the rich and nobles who admitted to practices o' unholy witchcraft. 

 

...

 

oh, and if you not like how we treat stupid coffee analogy, don't make stupid coffee analogies. is not anywhere close to same, or even similar. telling us that lots o' people don't pay their parking tickets in a timely matter is similarly pointless. sure, it is a stupid people that many smart folks do, but is not even close to being the same. is pointless to bring up such stuff.

 

conspiracy theorists? is lots o' conspiracy theorists that blame space aliens and government for every ill. rich nobles is the Least likely to fill that category... save the ones who already have mental health issues. conspiracy theorists is historically marginalized and develop a distrust o' authority. the nobles is the target o' conspiracy and not so much the breeding ground. and even then, how many conspiracy nuts is willing to risk their souls to prove their theories? how many rich and or noble conspiracy nuts is gonna be willing guinea pigs to prove or disprove a theory?

 

rare. we keep saying rare. you folks is unwittingly making more obvious that with present info we have, rare is only plausible way we see undead.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

Name 1 person who has half green hair, and half blue hair, right this moment. You can't? Oh, well, obviously that proves that no one in the world would decide to do such a thing, 'cause you can't name them. Clearly.

 

I don't care how you treat my coffee analogy. I asked why you were so focused on it. And you didn't answer that. You basically just re-iterated that I mentioned coffee, and that you can say whatever you want about it. Spiffy.

 

You keep pointing out how all these things just aren't the same. People are people. There are intelligent rich noble people, and there are intelligent poor nobodies. There are ignorant rich people, and ignorant poor nobodies. There are people who believe things, and people who doubt things. They all just happen to be in various individual circumstances.

 

But, what do I know. Literally everything I've said this whole time is 100% preposterous and wrong, while nothing you've said has been even the least bit inaccurate. Such is the nature of Gromnir. I concede to your absolution. No human being would ever risk becoming a cannibal for eternal life if such things actually occurred in the world, because everyone would mysteriously know, for a fact, what was going on, who was the cause, etc. Also, it's human nature to never take risks. Got it. Thanks.

[Gromnir]

Name 1 person who has half green hair, and half blue hair, right this moment. You can't? Oh, well, obviously that proves that no one in the world would decide to do such a thing, 'cause you can't name them. Clearly.

 

I don't care how you treat my coffee analogy. I asked why you were so focused on it. And you didn't answer that. You basically just re-iterated that I mentioned coffee, and that you can say whatever you want about it. Spiffy.

 

You keep pointing out how all these things just aren't the same. People are people. There are intelligent rich noble people, and there are intelligent poor nobodies. There are ignorant rich people, and ignorant poor nobodies. There are people who believe things, and people who doubt things. They all just happen to be in various individual circumstances.

 

But, what do I know. Literally everything I've said this whole time is 100% preposterous and wrong, while nothing you've said has been even the least bit inaccurate. Such is the nature of Gromnir. I concede to your absolution. No human being would ever risk becoming a cannibal for eternal life if such things actually occurred in the world, because everyone would mysteriously know, for a fact, what was going on, who was the cause, etc. Also, it's human nature to never take risks. Got it. Thanks.

am thinking witchcraft is a bit more significant than hair color, no? who the hell is gonna bother to record random hair colors n' such? thanks to torture, we suspect that there were folks who admitted witchcraft, but again, the numbers is gonna be staggeringly low... and not because such details is inconsequential. nobles admitting witchcraft is gonna be like seeing some random girl in a ny subway with blue and green hair? *snort*

 

am not recalling where we claimed that nobles and rich people were smart. we said that it would be tough to explain nobles as being complete uniformed o' something as dramatic as link 'tween animancy and undead.  we also conceded that nobles were just as likely to be stoopid and foolish... which is why all the horrific rumors that would be inevitable would be just as likely to impact nobles. we noted that conspiracy theorists tends to be folks who has been marginalized by governments. am not sure where you see us saying smarty rich v. dumb poor. those with the power is gonna be the targets o' conspiracies,  can we get a "Duh!" should be obvious. should also be obvious that the folks least likely to be desperate is the folks who actually is having stuff. 

 

your tendency to selective characterize, generalize and seeming forget is cute, but is not genuine helping.

 

and if you don't believe we explained what is wrong with coffee, multiple times, you is being more obtuse than we imagined. seriously?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps almost forgot. we dated a girl named elizabeth ________ at university. she had blue and green hair.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Gromnir

[Lephys]

Yes, Gromnir. I still think drinking coffee is the same thing as becoming a ravenous undead. I told you, you nailed my thesis. I just can't comprehend how that isn't the case. Obviously I'm a lost cause, but thanks for trying.

[Gromnir]

Yes, Gromnir. I still think drinking coffee is the same thing as becoming a ravenous undead. I told you, you nailed my thesis. I just can't comprehend how that isn't the case. Obviously I'm a lost cause, but thanks for trying.

you think that drinking coffee is same as becoming a ravenous undead? really? we never accused you o' such, but that would explain your apparent obtuseness. well, another mystery solved.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

aside: is very difficult to find self-professed witches. nobles accused o' sorcery/witchcraft seems rare, but folks admitting to witchcraft is non-existent. 'course the reason being that witchcraft were universal prohibited. confess to being a witch and you get christian burial and decapitation. burned at stake is other option. so, admittedly it is difficult to find a parallel for witches, but not for reasons you suggest. 

Edited May 29, 2014 by Gromnir

[JFSOCC]

Yes, Gromnir. I still think drinking coffee is the same thing as becoming a ravenous undead. I told you, you nailed my thesis. I just can't comprehend how that isn't the case. Obviously I'm a lost cause, but thanks for trying.

Gromnir does this when he's lost an argument, he falls back on fallacies. just ignore him. Edited May 29, 2014 by JFSOCC

[Amentep]

Thing is Gromnir's not wrong, really. Yeah I made a somewhat humorous (well I like to think it was) comment about a snake-oil salesman kind of pitch to a noble who KNEW another noble that had become undead (and obviously so). And Gromnir's right that, if a widespread correlation could be made to a medicine show and appearances of the ravening undead then the medicine show would not be a viable method of spreading animancy (and in fact would probably lead to arrest and execution).

 

I think the reason why there is a difference of opinion here is that there are a certain degree of intangibles involved, the biggest being the ability to create a correlation between what an animancer does, in secret, to Lord Reginald and when he does go ravenous undead (a process that, from the initial timeline might take some time to get to that state - if years, then the correlation co-efficient is going to be rather small). If so it might be harder to draw the conclusion of "animancer did it".

 

That said, the most likely scenarios are probably what Gromnir suggests - nobles paying for animancers to practice on others rather than on themselves.

 

"Did you hear about Lord Reginald? The guard found he'd been dabbling in an animancer cult. Had people locked up in his basement in various stages of undeath trying to unlock the secret of immortality".

"Hopefully no one we knew".

"Just a bunch of peasants."

"Oh well, terrible business, but no real harm done..."

[Gromnir]

 

Yes, Gromnir. I still think drinking coffee is the same thing as becoming a ravenous undead. I told you, you nailed my thesis. I just can't comprehend how that isn't the case. Obviously I'm a lost cause, but thanks for trying.

Gromnir does this when he's lost an argument, he falls back on fallacies. just ignore him.

 

folks who use lots o' fallacies tend to make this observation. *shrug* am aware that Gromnir has stepped on a few o' you before, so the group-hug-for-support is kinda sweet and all, but again, trying to suggest that willingness to have your soul toyed with by an animancer is having 0 parallel to everyday questionable choices likes not paying parking tickets timely or any o' the now dozens o' painfully stupid suggestions... unless the undead stuff is extreme rare... which brings us full circle.

 

 

"what an animancer does, in secret, to Lord Reginald and when he does go ravenous undead (a process that, from the initial timeline might take some time to get to that state - if years, then the correlation co-efficient is going to be rather small)."

 

am in perfect agreement and have said so. if this were the case of Lord Reggie doing secret stuff with dr. frankenstein in his wine cellar, after which Lord Reggie goes undead at some point in future, the State would no doubt be concerned, but am betting they would be ignorant for a good period of time.  the thing is, we ain't talking 'bout Lord Reginald in a vacuum. am fully conceding the possibility o' a lord or two getting hoodwinked. even some geographic contained single large-scale outbreak seems plausible. but again, consider a game staple undead and consider just how many Lord Reggies is necessary for such to be reasonable or plausible. State not making the connection with Lord Reggie IS plausible, but once it is Reggie, Steinhart, Burgundy, North, and others, the causal link becomes increasing obvious. 

 

rare is okie dokie... makes sense. again, the issue is having more than rare. once is more than rare, is hard to hide causal link. once causal link is known, you sure as heck don't have Lord Reggies willing using themselves to test animancy in any kind o' numbers beyond "extreme rare." 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Amentep]

Right, Gromnir, once it becomes even uncommon its harder to keep secret. Which is why I agree with you that Lord Reginald hiring people to experiment on others (who can be "disposed of" quietly if it doesn't work) makes a lot more sense.

 

A large undead population would then probably result in the catastrophic failure to contain the experiements (or undeath by some other means that raised a large population at one time, or over a long time like dead adventurers in a tomb joining the existing undead in undeath for some reason).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Would it be possible for animancers to bind someone's soul to their body without that person knowing? If so, an animancer or group of animancers could very well travel around creating undead for research purposes.

[illathid]

Right, Gromnir, once it becomes even uncommon its harder to keep secret. Which is why I agree with you that Lord Reginald hiring people to experiment on others (who can be "disposed of" quietly if it doesn't work) makes a lot more sense.

 

A large undead population would then probably result in the catastrophic failure to contain the experiements (or undeath by some other means that raised a large population at one time, or over a long time like dead adventurers in a tomb joining the existing undead in undeath for some reason).

 

Well the update where they talk about mentions other methods for creating undead besides animancy. I could definitely see the tomb thing happening for instance.

[W.MacKinnon]

I really think many of you are underestimating how quickly such news would indeed get around. Heck, word of mouth would pass such tales along as fast as supply convoys - which would be daily or weekly. On another note as for how quickly information might flow, if wizardry exists in a similar way as pnp D&D - a simple message spell(or a pillars amalgam) would work the same as a telegraph. This would lead to very fast transfer of information - not even taking into account possible instantaneous transports or what have you.

 

Another factor is in large urban centres, there might be government proclamations. Whether in stone of hand writ or delivered in some magical format, which would likely tell of any undead plagues (Or actual sickness plagues). These would travel outward from the metropolitan centres to the more rural areas via traveling tinkerers or traders, or other magical means.

 

Honestly though while the means of information flow are interesting(in a historical sense), I don't think they will actually be dealt with in Pillars. Just putting it out there, the only information passed would not be over tea and cuppets. Also if people are disappearing in the rags/port/poor district of the city - locals would notice the disappearances and spread word - via lines of trade at the very least.

[Nonek]

One would have thought that a pioneer city at the heart of a bustling and independent rather young nation would not have an abundance of law and order on its streets, whether through crime, press gangs, plague, work opportunities or simple relocation etcetera, would the disappearance of citizens not be a rather common occurence. I'm not familiar with cities of the period, but the mining towns of the American gold rush were if I remember correctly hotbeds of crime and such, they seem rather analogous.

[ManifestedISO]

Indeed, Yosemite Sam was the rootinest, tootinest crime boss of the period.

[Lephys]

@Amentep: He's only wrong in that what he's saying is not congruent with my points.

 

Naturally, though, it becomes some kind of "Okay, out of the two of us, who's right and who's wrong?" thing, instead of just taking what you can from both perspectives and collaborating on a better understanding. Which is just sad, to me.

 

I'd love to continue a productive analysis regarding people in PoE-land seeking immortality via animancy, but I honestly don't even know what point he's trying to make anymore. *shrug*

 

No worries. Maybe he's a genius and I'm an idiot. Who knows. Either way, the world will spin on if he and I don't continue this. And others will probably be all the better for it.

[Gromnir]

 

No worries. Maybe he's a genius and I'm an idiot. Who knows. Either way, the world will spin on if he and I don't continue this. And others will probably be all the better for it.

*groan*

 

look at your recent contributions. conspiracy theorist nobles making themselves available as guinea pigs for more testing animacy. to prove a point we s'pose?  analogizing the risks of volunteering to be an animancer's test bunny to peoples drinking of coffee.  etc.

 

am not knowing if you is an idiot, but you is making some idiotic contributions... oh, and Gromnir not need be a genius for you to post idiotic stuff.  discuss rational with amentep and others... we will stay out of it, but that won't impact your idiocy or Gromnir's genius either. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

I wonder if the main character or any of the companions will be/possibly become, ehh, "fampyric" at any point in the story. That could be pretty crazy.

 

"Guys, I think it's about time for another 'jerky' break, don't you! 8D!"

Edited May 29, 2014 by Lephys

[ManifestedISO]

It's gonna take seeing the word a few hundred times, if at all, before "fampyric" is dressed with any grace. Ugly. It's an ugly f-word.

[Lephys]

We could go with "fampyrousness," or "fampyriality" or something.

 

Now I want the official Animancy Association's slogan to be "Fampyrances can be deceiving."

Edited May 30, 2014 by Lephys