The Possibility of a delayed (2015) release

[Infinitron]

 

That isn't a paltry sum of money, but it also isn't enough to really affect the game's development in any substantial way. That is enough to pay for an extra couple of weeks of development on the game. We have to weigh that against all of the potential problems and ill will if things aren't handled perfectly. EA is like playing with fire, in my mind, and if it isn't handled correctly it could burn the project (and the company).

 

 

Ah, I see. You're afraid of reinforcing the "Bugsidian" stigma.

 

Yeah, I could see how gaming journalists would pounce on you for bugs in the Early Access version of the game, as absurd as that is.

 

Still, I assume many of them are going to get their hands on beta keys anyway...

Edited May 30, 2014 by Infinitron

[Sensuki]

There's a press embargo problem as well.

Watching the latest DFA Documentary now ... and yeah

They also had a problem with not having a media bang on release, because everyone had already run their stories and impressions, but they did release the whole Act rather than just a little bit of it. But the same issue probably would still apply to a PE "demo-size" beta.

I can see why Brandon is apprehensive.


edit: and man I burst out laughing when a prominent RPG Codex member's forum post featured on the DFA Documentary and Tim Schaefer called him a jerk. Absolutely ****ing gold, considering he is one of our best (content-wise) posters 

Edited May 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

That's a low estimation, Double Fine got looooooads more than that in 2 months.

 

Did you factor in the cannibalization? I.e. the extra revenue from EA wouldn't be gross, it'd only be the difference between the EA price and the initial sale price plus interest. I think it's a fairly safe assumption that every EA sale made is one day-1 sale lost -- it's unlikely IMO that many EA buyers would not be day-1 buyers if EA was not available.

[Sensuki]

Did you factor in the cannibalization? I.e. the extra revenue from EA wouldn't be gross, it'd only be the difference between the EA price and the initial sale price plus interest. I think it's a fairly safe assumption that every EA sale made is one day-1 sale lost -- it's unlikely IMO that many EA buyers would not be day-1 buyers if EA was not available.

Yeah but early access costs more, so you're getting more money out of early access buyers than you would from a day-1 sale.

Those are just the stats from the Documentary. That's Early Access plus 1.5 months of sales I think.

The two week Early Access was ~800,000 and over 20K copies. That's with some really **** press issues as well, as I found out during the episode

Compared to Wasteland 2 those are "pathetic" numbers though, and PE is more likely to out-do Wasteland 2 (almost guaranteed in fact).

 

Obsidian are more of a AAA studio though and they certainly do things more in line with that style. So if they do a closed backer beta and go for big day 1 sales with a huge press buzz, then that's fine. Perhaps the extra $25 per early access buyer isn't worth it if the projected total sales from not doing an EA is more (and not risking a Bugsidian tag).

[Karkarov]

Eternity is not some half arsed over budget mismanaged hack job being made by Double Fine.  It does not need Early Access and frankly the additional "profit" from it is mediocre when compared to the potential bad press, buyer backlash, and less impressive hit on actual launch.  Early Access is a sign of a weak game that is running out of money, or one that will never leave development anyway, and I am not the only person that feels that way.

 

Obsidian needs to focus on making a great game, not trying to jump on some flash in the pan fad to make a quick buck.

[Infinitron]

Early Access is a sign of a weak game that is running out of money, or one that will never leave development anyway, and I am not the only person that feels that way.

 

Almost all of the high profile oldschool RPGs of the "RPG revival" to be released since 2012 took advantage of Early Access. The two that have been released, Might & Magic X and Blackguards, turned out pretty nicely.

 

One that didn't use Early Access was Shadowrun Returns. Ahem ahem, correlation does not imply causation, but yeah.

 

My point is, it's almost become an expectation that these games have a stint through Early Access before their final release. It's like the new way of making games. If Obsidian aren't going to go that route, it'd be interesting to know exactly why.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Infinitron

[constantine]

EA ????????? 

 

 

Ooooooohhh, you mean E-arly A-ccess. 

 

And just for a second I thought we were discusing about something disgusting & vile 

[Karkarov]

 

Early Access is a sign of a weak game that is running out of money, or one that will never leave development anyway, and I am not the only person that feels that way.

 

Almost all of the high profile oldschool RPGs of the "RPG revival" to be released since 2012 took advantage of Early Access. The two that have been released, Might & Magic X and Blackguards, turned out pretty nicely.

 

One that didn't use Early Access was Shadowrun Returns. Ahem ahem, correlation does not imply causation, but yeah.

 

My point is, it's almost become an expectation that these games have a stint through Early Access before their final release. It's like the new way of making games. If Obsidian aren't going to go that route, it'd be interesting to know exactly why.

 

It is funny you say that because Shadowrun Returns is a better game that stayed closer to it's promises and has long term delivered a solid product.  Also it isn't the new way of making games.  It is the same crap different day, it is a money grab move to get easy funding.  Any real business person will tell you there is no such thing as "easy money".  Early Access is a very abused fad that is quickly losing it's welcome with most gamers.

 

EA ????????? 

 

Ooooooohhh, you mean E-arly A-ccess. 

 

And just for a second I thought we were discusing about something disgusting & vile 

No you were right the first time, they are discussing something disgusting and vile.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Karkarov

[Infinitron]

I'd be hesitant to speak for "most gamers". The kind of people you see whining on a game's Steam Community Hub discussion forum or Kickstarter comments aren't representative of the entire audience. I'm sure not too long ago one could get the impression from reading certain forums that "most gamers" hate Steam itself, but things change.

 

Well, whatever. Here's an idea: If they're not going to go the Early Access route, they can at least offer the game for regular pre-order on Steam, sans beta. Even the AAAs do that, so it's hardly a sign of a "weak game".

Edited May 30, 2014 by Infinitron

[Karkarov]

I'd be hesitant to speak for "most gamers". The kind of people you see whining on a game's Steam Community Hub discussion forum or Kickstarter comments aren't representative of the entire audience. I'm sure not too long ago one could get the impression from reading certain forums that "most gamers" hate Steam itself, but things change.

 

Well, whatever. Here's an idea: If they're not going to go the Early Access route, they can at least offer the game for regular pre-order on Steam, sans beta. Even the AAAs do that, so it's hardly a sign of a "weak game".

Pre Order and Early Access are not even close to the same thing though.  That said, yes I agree they should offer it for Pre Order.

[Lephys]

Considering the whole "story is under wraps" thing with this project, I can already tell you that Early Access is going to result in a LOT of people going "WTF?! This is just some paltry combat demo! I know no one SAID this was going to be an actual big coherent chunk of an actual full RPG that I get to play through, but I just assumed as much and now feel really bad and am going to sling a bunch of mud at you guys!"

 

EA is playing with fire at the best of times (when you've actually got an "I get to play 'the game' early!" feel. With PoE's dodging of pretty much any and all story spoilers, I wager it'd do far more harm than good, even if handled as well as can possibly be.

[Infinitron]

Considering the whole "story is under wraps" thing with this project, I can already tell you that Early Access is going to result in a LOT of people going "WTF?! This is just some paltry combat demo! I know no one SAID this was going to be an actual big coherent chunk of an actual full RPG that I get to play through, but I just assumed as much and now feel really bad and am going to sling a bunch of mud at you guys!"

 

EA is playing with fire at the best of times (when you've actually got an "I get to play 'the game' early!" feel. With PoE's dodging of pretty much any and all story spoilers, I wager it'd do far more harm than good, even if handled as well as can possibly be.

 

Eh, even without Steam, you still have thousands of backers with beta access. Obsidian is still selling beta tiers on their site right now. That's "Early Access" too, isn't it?

 

Digital Collector's Edition

 

Perfect for the digital collector. Includes two digital copies of Pillars of Eternity, most of the digital extras, and an Early Access Beta Key. The Early Access Beta Key allows you into the Backer Beta that will be released to backers before the general public.

 

Steam Early Access just means more people get to buy the beta after it's already released.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Infinitron

[Lephys]

Eh, you still have thousands of backers with beta access. Obsidian is still selling beta tiers on their site right now. That's "Early Access" too, isn't it?

Backers who intentionally sought out the game on Kickstarter, knowing all about it before it was even created, etc. And/or folks who know enough about the game and are interested enough to voluntarily travel to the site (they didn't accidentally happen upon a cRPG's website, then spontaneously purchase beta access).

 

I'm not philosophically debating the meaning of terms, here. I'm simply pointing out what I've observed about Steam Early Access. People, whether they should or not, tend to view that as just "getting to play something early, usually with more and more stuff added to it/improved in it as time goes on, until it's finally done." Thus, when it pops up on Steam, a bunch of people who frequent the Steam Store will see it, assume it's just literally Early Access to "the game" without really even reading about how under-wraps they're keeping all the story stuff (they'll think "Oh, I get to play the first few chapters or something!"), then get super upset when that isn't the case. Then you have an angry mob.

 

That, plus the fact that the estimated funding from such an effort wouldn't exactly be exorbitant, seems to suggest a high probability that it isn't worth it.

 

The only games I've seen do well with Steam Early Access were ones that literally just release the early version of the game, and build straight upon it. Like Rust, etc. Not "We'll just give you a little character-creation/combat balancing demo, but 80% of the game will only be playable once it's released."

 

Just an observation, for what it's worth. It seems to me that the proposed style of PoE's beta would not fare well at all on Steam Early Access.

 

Steam Early Access just means more people get to buy the beta after it's already released.

Yeah, and you're already going to have irrationally disgruntled beta backers. I don't see that as a reason to slap the same build onto a publicly-frequented store, for a plethora more gamers to buy first and ask questions later, then make a big uproar about it like it wasn't their own faults. Especially not if the proceeds generated aren't going to be substantially significant.

[Infinitron]

Fair enough.

 

By the way, the jury is still out on the exact nature of PoE's beta, IMO. I know Josh said a long time ago he wanted it to minimize spoilers, but I'm not sure whether they'll actually succeed at that goal. Creating unique spoiler-free content for a beta seems like it might be more work than they have time for. But I guess we'll see.

[Lephys]

^ True enough. Yeah, I'm just still running on their expressed intentions for the beta.

 

Also, I would just point out that it wouldn't necessarily require the creation of additional/specific content. It could simply be a build with all the story stuff cut out, and/or a build that allows character creation, then just loads you into "random" combat encounters from map travel, or what have you.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be some whole new equation that contradicts the direction of the actual, completed game build.

[Osvir]

 

The PE team themselves are probably not ready to answer questions about this, but if PE is able to bring in enough money during the early access for another development month, would that money be used on the vanilla game, or put in the piggy bank for the expansion ?

 

Our team is still discussing whether or not we are going to do Early Access.

 

Oh really...?  

 

"Digital Collector's Edition

Perfect for the digital collector. Includes two digital copies of Pillars of Eternity, most of the digital extras, and an Early Access Beta Key...."

 

... wait a minute... what's this...?

 

"... The Early Access Beta Key allows you into the Backer Beta that will be released to backers before the general public."

 

....

 

 

So you are discussing whether or not to go with a Steam Early Access? (Because "Steam Early Access" = for the general public)

Edited May 30, 2014 by Osvir

[Karkarov]

^ True enough. Yeah, I'm just still running on their expressed intentions for the beta.

 

Also, I would just point out that it wouldn't necessarily require the creation of additional/specific content. It could simply be a build with all the story stuff cut out, and/or a build that allows character creation, then just loads you into "random" combat encounters from map travel, or what have you.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be some whole new equation that contradicts the direction of the actual, completed game build.

I imagine they will just give us a pre set party in a "side" region where no actual main story missions take place.

[Gromnir]

early access as a developer/publisher money grab bothers us. early access as an excuse to extend development indefinite bothers us.

 

the thing is, when we saw wasteland 2 screenies and video early in development, we were kinda disappointed. looked pretty darn amateurish even if we liked some conceptual aspects. we haven't played wasteland 2 as a beta tester, so all we got to go on is videos and screenies, which can be very misleading, but compared to how the game looked before early access, wasteland 2 looks... better. 

 

early access aside, if game tumbles into an additional financial quarter so as to be getting necessary polish, am not gonna complain overmuch. no offense to obsidian, but you guys got a bit of a reputation, perhaps undeserved, of buggy releases. would rather you folks take some extra time to get the game nice and shiny before releasing to the public.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Almost all of the high profile oldschool RPGs of the "RPG revival" to be released since 2012 took advantage of Early Access. The two that have been released, Might & Magic X and Blackguards, turned out pretty nicely.

 

My point is, it's almost become an expectation that these games have a stint through Early Access before their final release. It's like the new way of making games. If Obsidian aren't going to go that route, it'd be interesting to know exactly why.

 

 

I'd be very hesitant to follow the herd mentality just because other old school rpg developers are doing it, Obsidian should do it. If Obsidian wants to go old school, then I'd prefer Obsidian to go the normal route of years past, release a (beta) demo and then sell the game once it's finished. None of this half arsed, half finished game on Early Access for people to rip it to shreds with it being buggy.

[BruceVC]

Considering the whole "story is under wraps" thing with this project, I can already tell you that Early Access is going to result in a LOT of people going "WTF?! This is just some paltry combat demo! I know no one SAID this was going to be an actual big coherent chunk of an actual full RPG that I get to play through, but I just assumed as much and now feel really bad and am going to sling a bunch of mud at you guys!"

 

 

 

 

That's very true how some people respond and end up commenting on early release games, despite disclaimers around known bugs and limited content  you will see numerous complaints and rage posts around " bugs and limited content". Its not worth the invective we will see IMO

 

But for me the main reason I don't think they should have early access is I don't want the narrative discussed in a way that I could find out, I don't want the surprise ruined. Even with the NDA people still unintentionally let things slip about the plot of games

[Bryy]

Steam reviews for Early Access games are the best.

[prodigydancer]

Since Obsidian hasn't even released any gameplay videos (that one short short "teaser" they made ages ago doesn't really count) I think it's safe to guess 2016 is the earliest.

[L'invité]

Personally I don't really like early access, I don't want to discover the game in an unfinished state.

For the Beta access, it would be cool if it were not a real part of the game but more a "test area" where we could test the main features of the game.

[nikolokolus]

Since Obsidian hasn't even released any gameplay videos (that one short short "teaser" they made ages ago doesn't really count) I think it's safe to guess 2016 is the earliest.

 

Good first post. Very thoughtful.

[ShadySands]

I thought it would have been cool if the beta was a little self contained side story that takes place in some little nook or cranny of the world. There could even be some minor reference to it in the game proper.

Edited May 31, 2014 by ShadySands