Israel vs Palestine

[Gorgon]

They gain popularity by being seen as fighting the IDF, and they're in too deep now, Hamas, they can't stop without a major win or they will lose support over their rocket offensive. IDF is much the same. 60 casualties for little gain, it doesn't take much logistic capacity to keep fireing homemade rockets from the rubble of Palestinean cities so Hamas is likely to run out of rockets before IDF action will prove decisive. Those 60 casualties need to have been 'for' something.  

 

Hence the destruction of infrastructure, power plants, 'symbolic' targets like government buidlings.

[Zoraptor]

No doubt people used the same argument about Ho Chi Minh as well- why doesn't he stop fighting the french, why doesn't he stop fighting the US, why did people keep fighting for him when he got millions of Vietnamese killed? Surely the french and US would stop bombing and killing, if only he just stopped?

 

It's a National Liberation Struggle, unless you're really willing to go all in- either the 'good' way, or the 'bad'- then all killing does is make them stronger as the next generation has more dead friends and relatives, and more anger. Palestinians will not blame Hamas, they'll blame Israel because in the end it is Israel that is doing the killing and denying them the statehood they were promised 66 years ago.

[Gorgon]

The difference there is that there is no tactic that is going to win it for them militarily. So one could wonder why they don't start getting smart about it. 

[Zoraptor]

It's not really about winning militarily though- the Viet Minh and NVA lost pretty much (obvious exception Dien Bien Phu) every single military engagement they fought, against both the french and US, and lost around 2 million combatants when fighting the US over ten years, plus an untold number of civilians. They won because it became politically untenable for the US to continue, not because they won militarily. The closest recent equivalent would be the invasion of Lebanon in 2006, in the end the Israeli political will broke rather than Hezbollah's and they went back to status quo ante with a few thousand dead Lebanese and a few hundred bead Israelis. The Israelis certainly could have continued militarily speaking though.

 

They aren't directly equivalent situations, of course, but you certainly can break an enemy politically while losing militarily. Personally I don't think it will work here because it'd take significant international pressure to achieve the more realistic of Hamas's aims such as lifting the blockade, and I'm sceptical about the effect even ten times more dead Palestinian civilians will have in that regard, but then there were plenty of people who thought the US could not 'lose' in Vietnam either.

[Gorgon]

Well the IDF isn't going to be defeated on the home front either. They are very much in it for the duration. If the Palestineans want to undermine confidence in the current administration and eventually turn popular opinion with them they sure are going about it the wrong way.

[TrashMan]

 

It is nice to have an imagination. As for Hamas use of civilian population for military purposes, it isn't limited to actual human shields, even though on several occasions Hamas said to preventing people from being vacated from the warned areas to force Israel to abort attacks.

 

Hamas tactic is deliberately calculated to exploit civilian population, to shield their command centers, weapons storage, rocket launchers, etc. Knowing all to well that if they use mosques, schools, hospitals (ambulances as taxis etc) placing their citizens in danger, TrashMan will not call them Nazis. Meanwhile they gain protection to their assets or capitalize on the dead as ammunition for their PR campaign, so they can spin it, cynically accuse Israel at placing civilians at Harms way.

 

 

 

Redicolous.

 

Of course I do not call Hamas Natzi's, because their actions don't have that much in common with them (aside from being d****), in comparison to Israel.

 

Hamas is hiding it's rockets in houses? Well, geez mr. genius, where else would it hide them? The Gaza strip is already overpopulated as it is, and out in the open, they would be spotted and destroyed. What would be your solution? Leave them to be destroyed?

It's not like Isreal doesn't bomb the living s*** out of anything anyway.

 

As you said yourself - "the nature of the war is assymetrical" and "the objective is to win". Yet you expect for the weaker side to line up like gentlemen and say "shoot me". You seem to forget Israel has a LOT more options available than Hamas/palestinians

[TrashMan]

 

Israel have shown Hamas, and more importantly the Palestinian population, that it doesn't matter if they rock they boat or not, they are going to be attacked anyway. It's not about Hamas, it's about gaining support from Israeli voters. It's about a right-wing prime minister trying to gain far-right credentials in an increasingly extremist country (who just like Putin is being hit in the ass by his own propaganda pushing him further from peace, accidentally creating a self-fulfilling feedback loop of hate and racism).

Has your incredible bias completely blinded you to the facts? Do you not realize there were something like 30 tunnels dug under the Israeli border, preparing for a huge attack, potentially with thousands of victims, for the fall? Not to mention incessant rocket attacks from Gaza. This is what you call not rocking the boat?

 

 

Tunnels digged in a blockaded area that is lacking food, water and medicine, and where needed supplies can be brought in via said tunnels?

 

IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

Israel have shown Hamas, and more importantly the Palestinian population, that it doesn't matter if they rock they boat or not, they are going to be attacked anyway. It's not about Hamas, it's about gaining support from Israeli voters. It's about a right-wing prime minister trying to gain far-right credentials in an increasingly extremist country (who just like Putin is being hit in the ass by his own propaganda pushing him further from peace, accidentally creating a self-fulfilling feedback loop of hate and racism).

Has your incredible bias completely blinded you to the facts? Do you not realize there were something like 30 tunnels dug under the Israeli border, preparing for a huge attack, potentially with thousands of victims, for the fall? Not to mention incessant rocket attacks from Gaza. This is what you call not rocking the boat?

 

 

Tunnels digged in a blockaded area that is lacking food, water and medicine, and where needed supplies can be brought in via said tunnels?

 

IMPOSSIBLE!

 

First, tunnels used for smuggling are under the Egyptian border, the tunnels under the Israeli border are purely for terrorist attacks. Second, humanitarian supplies are not blockaded, only things which could be used for military purposes, which Hamas has been able to obtain anyway so far. Why don't you stop spouting off about things you obviously know nothing about?

[averagedog]

Upon watching that Rap battle video, I've got to say, the creators of that video are Incredibly biased. They glossed over the actions of Hamas and instead focused exclusively on the admittedly dumb relationship between the US and the incredibly caricaturized Jewish Leadership. (Though I agree with their opinion of our foreign policy >.<)

[TrashMan]

 

 

Tunnels digged in a blockaded area that is lacking food, water and medicine, and where needed supplies can be brought in via said tunnels?

 

IMPOSSIBLE!

 

First, tunnels used for smuggling are under the Egyptian border, the tunnels under the Israeli border are purely for terrorist attacks. Second, humanitarian supplies are not blockaded, only things which could be used for military purposes, which Hamas has been able to obtain anyway so far. Why don't you stop spouting off about things you obviously know nothing about?

 

 

Becasue there's absolutely NO ONE on the Israeli side that would would smuggle stuff?

A tunnel is a tunnel. It's used for whatever is necessary.

 

Secondly, Israel flags almost everything as "possible military use". Fact of the matter is that Gaza is overpopulated, underdeveloped area full of refuges, and it's kept in that state by Israel.

 

So why don't YOU stop spouting about thing you know nothing about?

 

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's kept in that state because it's at war with Israel, mostly by its own government which spends all its money on weapons and tunnels. The tunnels under the Israeli border didn't even have their exits open, as soon as they're used they would be discovered, they're one time use only. Anyway, you sound like you're 13 at best, so I'm through talking with you.

[TrashMan]

I'm sure it has NOTHING to do with the fact that the best land and resources were taken by Israel and that people are stuffed in a small area and that their infrastructure is bombed to hell every few years.

Hard work is all that is necessary to achieve prosperity. No other conditions are relevant. Those lazy, dirty palestinians!

 

 

13? That a nice, happy, carefree age. I'd love it if it were true.

 

Also, I'd advise against entering a battle of wits with me... I don't like fighting unarmed opponents.

Edited August 2, 2014 by TrashMan

[Wrath of Dagon]

Israel tried to help their economic development, but it's hard to do when they keep sending suicide bombers.

[Volourn]

And, when Isreal left Gaza years ago there was a lot of mdoern  toys elft behind that Hamas promptly destroyed/took over/used for their  war games, the Palesrinians be damned./

 

btw, Where are all the pro Palestinians  when Hamas mass  murders them and si throwing them off buildings or assainating them? Ogh yeah, Hamas is allowed to do that stuff.

 

Nobiody cares about the Palestinian plight. It's more about hating Isreal and the Jews. or else there'd be a lot more moaning about how Palestinians are treated elsewhere or how minority Jews and Christians are treated in other countries.

 

people seem to forget plenty of Muslims/Arabs live in Isreal, vote, and do well for themselves.

 

\Again, Isreal is no saint but consdiering the competition it's a no contest in the moral 'battle'. Slam dunk win for Isreal.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Volourn

[Valsuelm]

[BruceVC]

 

Its highly unlikely anyone is going to through  a 1 hour video with the title "The Truth about Israel and Palestine".

 

The more most objective people look at the situation the more we realize there is no such thing as one "Truth"

 

Rather make yours points about the conflict in a post with links so people can see where you get your opinion from. That way people can make reasonable  comments

[Hiro Protagonist]

Its highly unlikely anyone is going to through  a 1 hour video with the title "The Truth about Israel and Palestine".

 

I did.

 

 

Rather make yours points about the conflict in a post with links so people can see where you get your opinion from. That way people can make reasonable  comments

 

If you don't like the video, why not rebut the points you disagree in the video? Did you even watch the first couple of minutes? Or did you just look at the 56:58 time on the video and that was one of your reasons to dismiss it?

 

Not saying I agree or disagree with the video. I at least watched it to see what it was about. After the first couple of minutes, I was hooked and it was pretty interesting.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

Its highly unlikely anyone is going to through  a 1 hour video with the title "The Truth about Israel and Palestine".

 

The more most objective people look at the situation the more we realize there is no such thing as one "Truth"

 

Rather make yours points about the conflict in a post with links so people can see where you get your opinion from. That way people can make reasonable  comments

 

 

You've already made clear again and again your willful ignorance of just about every issue out there Bruce. You might enjoy hunting for sandworms head first, but not everyone does. If ever your voracious appetite for annelids subsides and you wish instead to learn something of import about the subject at hand or anything else, this video and others are there to be watched. There's also a plethora of history books out there. But actually learning things of substance, takes some time. An hour is too much I guess for you, and that's not even a lot.

 

And there is only one truth, it's called reality.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

Its highly unlikely anyone is going to through  a 1 hour video with the title "The Truth about Israel and Palestine".

 

I did.

 

 

Rather make yours points about the conflict in a post with links so people can see where you get your opinion from. That way people can make reasonable  comments

 

If you don't like the video, why not rebut the points you disagree in the video? Did you even watch the first couple of minutes? Or did you just look at the 56:58 time on the video and that was one of your reasons to dismiss it?

 

Not saying I agree or disagree with the video. I at least watched it to see what it was about. After the first couple of minutes, I was hooked and it was pretty interesting.

 

 

 

Okay, I may watch it then. Generally everything Vals posts doesn't offer a very objective view of the particular situation so I normally don't watch his videos. That doesn't mean his opinion I automatically discount but just his video links

[Meshugger]

Lets widen our perspective a bit fellas: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/islamic-state-fighting-hamas-priority-before-israel.html

[Mor]

You guys think its a conspiracy, that  certain countries only abstained due to some sort of surreptitious influence from the USA or Western banking circles.

You also noticed the "Banking cartel's thumb" it reminded me of Sarex rants. Although usually when I think of a 'conspiracy nuts', I imagine people who spend too much time in their head, deriving pleasure at the pursuit of explanations for the same body of facts. However, i'd argue that popularity of some conspiracies has nothing todo with looking for explanations, but about angry\envious people looking for convenient lies or scapegoat for their troubles... Btw Sarex was from Dinar using country.

 

---

 

As for the vote. Considering that the UN General Assembly voting blocks and their voting pattern are well known facts. Any vote in GA is auto pass, any investigation starts with presumption of guilt, which used for political ramming and or tying their hands.

 

If you unfamiliar with the blocks such as NAM or OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) weight etc, I advise you to see this vid I posted on the other page or you can use this quick (rough) summary at wikipidea:

In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-specific General Assembly resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council resolutions, 100% of the Commission on the Status of Women resolutions, 50% of reports from the World Food Programme, 6% of United Nations Security Council resolutions and 6 of the 10 Emergency sessions.

Which is not surprising, considering how many of UN human\civil rights committees are handled by the biggest perptrators of such violations, who use their position to steer any criticism from themselves for their continued "cooperation", while ramming their political rivals. Which should also explain USA voting policy.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

Hamas is hiding it's rockets in houses? Well, geez mr. genius, where else would it hide them? The Gaza strip is already overpopulated as it is, and out in the open, they would be spotted and destroyed. What would be your solution? Leave them to be destroyed?

It is obvious that you are consumed by hate, one of those people who cry "women and children" are dying into the camera, for dramatic effect not because they care.

 

p.s. I don't suppose that I will get an answer to who?

 

I'm sure it has NOTHING to do with the fact that the best land and resources were taken by Israel and that people are stuffed in a small area and that their infrastructure is bombed to hell every few years.

Wtf are you talking about? Edited August 3, 2014 by Mor

[TrashMan]

And, when Isreal left Gaza years ago there was a lot of mdoern  toys elft behind that Hamas promptly destroyed/took over/used for their  war games, the Palesrinians be damned./

 

\Again, Isreal is no saint but consdiering the competition it's a no contest in the moral 'battle'. Slam dunk win for Isreal.

 

Yes, I'm sure Israel bombing roads, bridges, factories, power plants, water plants, hospitals, etc had NO effect on Gaza whatsoever.

Or ya know - taking all the best territory and leaving palestinians with leftovers.

 

Israels moral victory?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :grin:

That's the funniest thing I heard in ages!

[Walsingham]

Another thought, and I apologise if anyone's already made it: how come the brave defenders of the Palestinians haven't built any bomb shelters?

[BruceVC]

Another thought, and I apologise if anyone's already made it: how come the brave defenders of the Palestinians haven't built any bomb shelters?

 

That's an excellent question, the explanation is probably got to do around the lack of space and the number of Palestinians who would need shelter, but I am just guessing here. Also there doesn't seem much general concern to the Palestinians from Hamas. I have said this before but Hamas uses civilian casualties to gain international sympathy and support for there political objectives