Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Mor]

I see no problem in external meddling. If EU and USA can openly support, subside and encourage their pet movements, why Russia can't? EU grabbed their share of the country, Russia grabbed theirs. Now they squabble for remaining regions.

 

...

 

Both Russia, EU and USA used agressive propaganda and money support of their pet parties. The difference is that after western sponsored uprising succeeded, Russia responded with their own sponsored uprising.

I understand your claims that US\EU are just as bad, but let me ask second time can you show any specifics that would back those claims? that is what exactly USA\EU done in Ukraine that is out of the ordinary in world politics(and hasn't been used by other, and Russia in particular) and is somehow comparable to Russia recent actions?

 

 

What is the EU Russia going to offer Ukraine? Security? Free lunch? We're not children here, we all know that "aid packages" are loans for buying time, political influence and really more about saving foreign interests that stand to lose a lot more than Ukraine if it defaults. And apart from borrowed time, what?

 

Russia EU can offer them a market, energy and with the CIS EU security guarantees. Its not going to make  a wonderland out of Ukraine but the alternative is the worse poverty than they're in now, as the good energy deals come to an end and Ukrainian exports dry up.

I made few corrections, to highlight your bias. While on the surface both seem to offer the same, your opinion seem to be predicated on the idea that EU bailout is nothing but means to buy political influence that will sink Ukraine into worse poverty, while Russia bailout will save them...

 

That is interesting because I see the reverse situation. Last I checked Ukraine asked to join EU, EU don't need any free loaders and Ukraine had to meet the same standards like everyone else. The IMF assistance that was offered was predicated on affirmative action that would change the course of Ukraine poor performance. (so far Ukraine avoided far reaching reforms, which would be very un popular, and burned through it reserves bring us here). The current bailout attached to the same reforms.

 

On the other hand we have Russia which actively lobbied for Ukraine to join its own trade union and its based in Ukraine for ever a decade, who applied economic pressure aggravating Ukraine economical crisis* and eventually offered to throw money at them to solve their problems.

 

* not just gas prices and btw Ukraine payed less for gas, because they held monopoly over means of its transport from east to west, which is the same scheme Russia have been exploiting for long time.

 

So with Kiev on the warpath, any guesses how long it takes before Russia intervenes?

It seems pretty inevitable now with this aggression...

Yeah... For some reason I have this picture of cop crying "stop resisting" while beating some random guy senseless. yeah, Russia: stop resisting Ukraine .. Edited May 2, 2014 by Mor

[HoonDing]

[Sarex]

Welp, here we go. Kiev has started the offensive, Russia has called for an UN meting, they will probably call for Kiev to back down, which it probably won't do and that will give Russia free reign to move their troops in to Ukraine. Now we will see if Putin's patience has paid off.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Sarex

[Drowsy Emperor]

Yes, 40 people are dead for nothing. When they were burning government buildings Yanukovich during the Euromaidan didn't send armed people to murder citizens en masse. At this point there is no reason or justification for the existence of the Kiev "government" which is now nothing more than a bunch of bandits who seized power and are now trying to hold onto it at all costs. 

[Sarex]

Guess those images were against the rules, they were pretty graphic though.

[obyknven]

Odessa massacre. Ukrainian Nazi burn alive around 50 people, few hundreds  people are wounded. Burn people is god old Nazi tradition.

http://youtu.be/uXzRpmLaBUg

Nazianal guards try attack Kramatorsk. Result -10 local citizens are killed  and 30 are wounded.

[Tagaziel]

Yes, 40 people are dead for nothing. When they were burning government buildings Yanukovich during the Euromaidan didn't send armed people to murder citizens en masse. At this point there is no reason or justification for the existence of the Kiev "government" which is now nothing more than a bunch of bandits who seized power and are now trying to hold onto it at all costs.

The Euromaidan weren't heavily armed separatists waging regular war against the government. A teeny-tiny difference you might want to consider.

[213374U]

^ You got it backwards. It is the government waging regular war against the separatists to retake parts of the country they had lost control over without any actual fighting. This is after going back on internationally brokered deals that were backed by Russia twice. I guess the separatists should just stand down and go home, right? Because that's what people at the Maidan square should have done once the fighting broke out?

 

lel consistency

[Hassat Hunter]

Cause people apparently need the reminder, it's been so long after all;

https://www.google.nl/search?q=kiev+riots&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=n7C&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&channel=fflb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OLRkU8S8C4mOO-rxgdAK&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=978

 

And yes, I think it's only a matter of time now before Russia "invades". What happens then, well... all bets are off.

[Drowsy Emperor]

A government's legitimacy comes from the way it comes into power and the way it holds onto it. 

 

Russia may be supporting the eastern territories but its still the people living there that are choosing to fight and die rather than accept the authority of the Kiev junta. If they don't accept the legitimacy of the government its obvious it had none in those regions in the first place. Even more damning is choosing to take power by force rather than through the ballot. That speaks of a "government" without any semblance of broad consensus which is the most important thing any government is based upon. 

The sole result of their "rule" is borderline civil war and further economic deterioration.

 

The terminology in use here is also off. Since there is no "government" with an internationally recognized legitimacy, there are no "separatists". For all intents and purposes its civil war between one larger entity that's abusing the state mechanisms that it has in its control and one smaller entity and that's how the situation should be treated. Calling the people holding onto power in Kiev a government affords them the protection and legitimacy they don't have.

 

It mustn't be forgotten that they only reason they took control of Kiev is because their political parties have the majority in the capital and in a part of the country. The mob on the streets of Kiev was never once representative of the country's population and political opinions - which is now more obvious than ever.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Tagaziel]

A government's legitimacy comes from the way it comes into power and the way it holds onto it. 

 

Russia may be supporting the eastern territories but its still the people living there that are choosing to fight and die rather than accept the authority of the Kiev junta. If they don't accept the legitimacy of the government its obvious it had none in those regions in the first place. Even more damning is choosing to take power by force rather than through the ballot. That speaks of a "government" without any semblance of broad consensus which is the most important thing any government is based upon. 

The sole result of their "rule" is borderline civil war and further economic deterioration.

Do you have any idea what a junta is or do you pick random words from the dictionary that happen to sound threateningly? The current Ukrainian government is interim, with the new elections in about three weeks. It's funny how you slam Kiev as illegitimate and anti-democratic, when the elections are right around the corner and the eastern Ukraine territories, where armed separatists proliferate, are ensuring they will not partake in democratic elections.

 

The terminology in use here is also off. Since there is no "government" with an internationally recognized legitimacy, there are no "separatists". For all intents and purposes its civil war between one larger entity that's abusing the state mechanisms that it has in its control and one smaller entity and that's how the situation should be treated. Calling the people holding onto power in Kiev a government affords them the protection and legitimacy they don't have.

 

It mustn't be forgotten that they only reason they took control of Kiev is because their political parties have the majority in the capital and in a part of the country. The mob on the streets of Kiev was never once representative of the country's population and political opinions - which is now more obvious than ever.

Ukraine's government is legitimate and recognized internationally. Russia is not the entire world. You can keep slandering the current cabinet, but fact is, it has set up elections peacefully, whereas the separatists have triggered an armed conflict that has already killed dozens in regular combat.

 

Cause people apparently need the reminder, it's been so long after all;

https://www.google.nl/search?q=kiev+riots&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=n7C&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&channel=fflb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OLRkU8S8C4mOO-rxgdAK&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=978

Care to highlight protesters armed with military grade weapons in regular firefights with the Ukrainian military, shooting down gunships and abducting foreign correspondents, so that they can be annexed by Poland/Moldova/pick-your-poison-brah?

Edited May 3, 2014 by Tagaziel

[Drowsy Emperor]

One product of this situation the US probably never intended is that its in fact bringing Germany and Russia closer together. The German support for the whole escapade is becoming more token with each passing day judging by the talks between Merkel and Obama. Berlin is officially supporting Kiev, but in reality the major players in Germany are dead set against worsening relations with Russia. The German-Russian economic relations are taking precedence over US-German political relations which is a wholly new development. It speaks of a Germany that's on its way to independence from US influence. That's probably the worst nightmare of the UK-US political axis in Europe. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

No government in Kiev can be legitimate unless Russia says so because Russia is both a neighbor and a major power able to dispute that legitimacy. In theory it should only be the opinion of the people living in the country but the reality of international relations doesn't always correspond to the theory. No state exists in a vacuum.  That's the way the cookie crumbles in world politics, sorry.

 

The supposed government in Kiev can't possibly set up elections peacefully with its brownshirts roaming the streets and the armed men under their control shooting up civilians for disputing their legitimacy. Democratic elections can't be held in a charged atmosphere where the threat of violence hangs in the air. That's idiocy. Those elections only serve to push people into accepting the new regime, into giving it a fake legitimacy.

 

Besides if they're going to set up "fair" elections now why the hell did they overthrow Yanukovich in the first place (whose elections were judged as fair btw)? Please. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Hassat Hunter]

when the elections are right around the corner and the eastern Ukraine territories, where armed separatists proliferate, are ensuring they will not partake in democratic elections.

Say the people who where saying the Crimea vote was under pressure due to armed people forcing people.

What's going on here? The army? No... these will be good democratic votes.

The difference between the 2? That one is pro-EU/US, the other not... and in one apparently armed forces are omni-present and make it illegitimate, and the other not.

Funny how democracy works, eh? On a base-to-base and with similar situations being widly different since, well, this time the west is in possession of the weapons.

I see hipocrisy.

Ukraine's government is legitimate and recognized internationally.

No, it's not. Because the US/EU thinks Kiev is awesome and Ukraine doesn't make it internationally so.

"WE" are not the entire world. Russia is not the entire world.

Care to highlight protesters armed with military grade weapons in regular firefights with the Ukrainian military, shooting down gunships and abducting foreign correspondents, so that they can be annexed by Poland/Moldova/pick-your-poison-brah?

Afraid I can't do that, since the old government of Kiev didn't send armies or armed gunships to quel protests.

They were still internationally looked upon for aggression though, despite being way less aggressive against it's own people than the current government.

Odd how that 'international dismay' works. It's almost like it's just a few countries, rather than international 0_o

[obyknven]

Before shooting to people in Andreevka.

Punisher's vs people

 

"Evil terrorist" - member  of Kramatorsk self-defense.

[Tagaziel]

Say the people who where saying the Crimea vote was under pressure due to armed people forcing people.

What's going on here? The army? No... these will be good democratic votes.

The difference between the 2? That one is pro-EU/US, the other not... and in one apparently armed forces are omni-present and make it illegitimate, and the other not.

Funny how democracy works, eh? On a base-to-base and with similar situations being widly different since, well, this time the west is in possession of the weapons.

I see hipocrisy.

If you can't see the difference between a referendum cobbled together in days to justify a Russian annexation and national presidential elections months in the making, there's nothing to discuss here.

 

No, it's not. Because the US/EU thinks Kiev is awesome and Ukraine doesn't make it internationally so.

"WE" are not the entire world. Russia is not the entire world.

It's funny how you think that one country disputing the legitimacy of a government is enough to dismiss it as illegitimate, but recognition by the EU, US and freaking Belarus, the butt buddy of Russia is not.

 

Afraid I can't do that, since the old government of Kiev didn't send armies or armed gunships to quel protests.

They were still internationally looked upon for aggression though, despite being way less aggressive against it's own people than the current government.

Odd how that 'international dismay' works. It's almost like it's just a few countries, rather than international 0_o

Maybe he didn't respond in that way because the Euromaidan wasn't an organized separatist insurgency armed and steered by Russia.

 

It's nice how you continue to whitewash Yanukovych's regime and the actions of his personal enforcers, Berkut. Good to see the lie theory is alive and well.

 

No government in Kiev can be legitimate unless Russia says so

Stopped reading at this point.

[213374U]

So the logic here is, it's OK to use heavy weapons against insurgents if they are backed by Russia. If not, the government has no legitimacy to quell riots, it must fold to the insurgents' every demand, and the President must be dismissed and tried for treason. And if you think I'm being overly sarcastic, think again. It's actually how things work once you realize that laws aren't worth the paper they're printed on, that reasons can always be cooked up after the fact for the history books to help the masses sleep easy and that, indeed, might makes right.

"Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!"

Edited May 3, 2014 by 213374U

[Walsingham]

I can see that consistency is important. 213374u. But I'm afraid I've lost track of your main point.

[obyknven]

Baltic states and Poland become synonym of Nazi s***t. Just read Polish press and comments about Odessa massacre. 

http://www.15min.lt/naujiena/aktualu/pasaulis/odesoje-per-rusijos-salininku-sukeltas-riauses-zuvo-43-zmones-dar-174-zmones-buvo-suzeisti-25-iu-bukle-labai-sunki-57-423800

After WW2 burn people alive considered as terrible crime, but not for these East-European Nazi  fan's. At least their idols from Third Reich do this constantly.

http://wikimapia.org/8874054/Gardelegen-Isenschnibbe-Memorial-war-crime#/photo/2003167

[Tagaziel]

I can see that consistency is important. 213374u. But I'm afraid I've lost track of your main point.

Here's a visual aid, Wals.

 

[Zoraptor]

Wals, you just liked a post of Tagaziel's in which he described the people burned to death in Odessa as being "heavily armed separatists waging regular war against the government" a description which is... pretty despicable since they quite obviously were not anything like that by any stretch of reality and they most certainly were at very worst equivalent to what was regularly seen at Euromaiden. I'm not sure, but I think you may have missed the point just slightly yourself.

[Sarex]

Wals, you just liked a post of Tagaziel's in which he described the people burned to death in Odessa as being "heavily armed separatists waging regular war against the government" a description which is... pretty despicable since they quite obviously were not anything like that by any stretch of reality and they most certainly were at very worst equivalent to what was regularly seen at Euromaiden. I'm not sure, but I think you may have missed the point just slightly yourself.

 

That's making an assumption he read what Tagaziel wrote or for that matter what anyone else wrote.

[Gorgon]

Don't post imbedded vids of burning bodies or whatever. If you have to, post a link to a news site and give a warning. I haven't got time to watch all that **** just to check. 

[Hassat Hunter]

Oh, I actually now do recall the peaceful insurgeants of Kiev's response to armored vehicles...

 

It was... the very peaceful throwing of 40 molotov ****tails;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXScRtANNGY

 

But hey, keep saying destroying armor needs high-tech russian backed support...

[Zoraptor]

That's making an assumption he read what Tagaziel wrote or for that matter what anyone else wrote.

 

Not necessarily, some of the press coverage has, as always, not exactly been straight down the middle and there has certainly been a lot of dissimulation from both official Ukrainian sources and western politicians. It's possible that there was a genuine belief that those in the building were a cadre of Russian spetsnaz and specially trained Transnistrian infiltrators which seems to be the 'official' version the Ukrainians are putting out.

 

Of course, those with some historic knowledge know that herding people into buildings and setting them on fire was a popular past time among Right Sector's direct antecedent the UPA in their pogroms during the nazi occupation- indeed, Kiev city hall had a prominent poster of Stepan Bandera added to its decor post Maidan. Plus, some of the more honest publications (such as the Grauniad) have noted the presence of Right Sector there, as well as some of their rather proud pronouncements ("The aim is to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians]," said Dmitry Rogovsky, another activist from Right Sector whose hand had been injured during the fighting. "They are all paid Russian separatists"), and have pictures clearly showing UPA flags as well. It's such a shame that loony tunes fascists are actually proud of being loony tunes fascists and like boasting about it, it makes it so much more difficult to spin the kindly Kievan bunnies vs evil Russian bear narrative effectively.