Varied loot and balanced random loot tables = even more replayability?

[IndiraLightfoot]

I've been playing lots of ARPG recently, and the only thing I'd love to see is that variety in loot being carried over to a really good and deep CRPG.

 

This isn't the first thread about loot, I know, but I want to keep the topic of this one pretty tight; a discussion about the possibility of making loot much more varied and perhaps have cleverly balanced random loot tables.

And yes, I know already that they've said that PE will have hand-placed loot, a lot like NWN2. But as someone who plans on doing lots of re-runs with new pcs, I really would like to see more randomized loot. That's all: I don't want more loot or more magic loot, just more variation. I think it was JFSOCC who long ago came up with some cool concept from KOTOR2, where a few very rare magical items got to be made much more varied by the player's own input and recipes. I really like that idea too, as that would make for an even more engaging game each time I start over. What's your thought on this? I for one think this is something a computer RPG would be able to handle really well. And it needn't be much imbalance at all.

Edited April 20, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sarex]

I doubt it, I gather that every piece of magical loot will have a story background, some (most?) of which was submitted by the backers. That, in my mind, excludes any possibility of random loot generation. There is a charm to hand placed loot, it has much more personality and it's somehow much...hmmm...not better, but significant then random generated stuff.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Sarex

[PrimeJunta]

I'm kind of in two minds about this.

 

On the one hand, yeah, variety would be cool, and for example HotU was a lot more replayable because of the variation in loot. 

 

On the other, random loot tends to make players focus more on the loot. While loot is definitely an important part of cRPG gameplay -- and a core part in aRPG's -- for a more story- and exploration-driven game like P:E I'd prefer if it stayed to the side as it were, letting elements like story and setting come to the forefront.

 

From the sound of it, though, the Od Nua mega-dungeon sounds like it would fit well with random loot; sort of a loot-driven dungeon crawl within the larger game.

[Prometheus]

I'm against random powerful loot, in most games random loot means either grinding or reloading for the right "item". Also random loot can make character concept difficult to play, e.g. I want to play an archer but the enemies only drop good firearms.

I'm also not sure how many people would replay a game to get a different item. I wouldn't replay a game because I get different items, I replay games because I want to play a different character and get different reactions.

A system that I wouldn't mind, would be if all powerful items are randomly distrubuted in the world at the beginning of the game. You can always get the item, but in different playthroughs you would need to solve different quests/defeat different enemies. e.g:

playthrough 1:

quest 1 solution 1 reward powerful sword.

quest 1 solution 2 reward powerful mace.

quest 2 solution 1 reward powerful pistol.

playthrough 2:

quest 1 solution 1 reward powerful mace.

quest 1 solution 2 reward powerful pistol.

quest 2 solution 1 reward powerful sword.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Prometheus

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm against random powerful loot, in most games random loot means either grinding or reloading for the right "item".

I agree 100%!

However, if those few powerful items shifted between a few scripted wps, and perhaps even was "smart" loot, that is, adapted to your characters in your party, it would be fine, I reckon.

 

Btw, one thing that Civilization V did right was locked random seed sequences (later, they gave players a toggle for those who want to have random seeds for every reload). So, for instance, those goodie huts in that game came in a locked order that gets unravelled as you play the game. Even if you save scum and reload, it will always stay the same. That prevented you from getting a new tech or lots of gold for each goodie hut. If I were to use this system in a CRPG, I wouldn't even allow that toggle. Locked random seed sequences is the way to go.

 

What I'd love to get rid of is stuff like this:

-"Oh, kill Drizzt - he always carry those two Scimitar+3s"

-"That X X Inn owner sells a broadsword+1"

-"You know the barrel in the northernmost alley in Mulsantir, there you'll get a Necklace of Adaptation."

 

And like I said in my OP, those random elements should be carefully balanced. I mean, wouldn't it be great if each and every barrel, dirt mound and larder contained something for each playthrough? Actually, Divinity of Original Sin is doing this in their beta now. However, unfortunately, they allow save-scumming, so people reload in order to get better loot.

[Suburban-Fox]

I dunno...I think defeating particularly powerful enemies should result in you getting particularly powerful weapons, and it makes sense that the weapons they drop are the ones they used on you. After all, if you decide to kill Drizzt, who is known to carry two legendary swords, you'd expect to be able to take his swords when he dies.

 

I don't mind there being some randomisation in loot, but it still needs to make sense, and be right for the context. If I kill a hundred giant rats, I don't expect the last one to vomit up a +2 dagger just before it dies. Similarly, if I kill a big guy with a nasty looking halberd, I'd expect his corpse to contain a nasty looking halberd, and not suddenly have a mauler instead.

 

On a related note, however, I'd like there to be fewer armour drops - particularly with plate armour. I never liked the idea that you can kill a dwarf, take his +2 Harness of Dwarvishness, and put it on your elf (because it'll fit him perfectly of course!! :D ). At the very least, a harness worn by a dwarf should only fit dwarves.

[Sarex]

On a related note, however, I'd like there to be fewer armour drops - particularly with plate armour. I never liked the idea that you can kill a dwarf, take his +2 Harness of Dwarvishness, and put it on your elf (because it'll fit him perfectly of course!! :D ). At the very least, a harness worn by a dwarf should only fit dwarves.

 

Lol, so that is where you draw the line? XD

[Suburban-Fox]

 

On a related note, however, I'd like there to be fewer armour drops - particularly with plate armour. I never liked the idea that you can kill a dwarf, take his +2 Harness of Dwarvishness, and put it on your elf (because it'll fit him perfectly of course!! :D ). At the very least, a harness worn by a dwarf should only fit dwarves.

 

Lol, so that is where you draw the line? XD

 

 

I'm simply being realistic.

 

In PnP games, we take character size into consideration when finding armour/clothing on NPCs/enemies, and rule that it only fits if you're within a reasonable size range, but, while I personally wouldn't be opposed to this, I don't for one minute think that it'll happen in a CRPG.

[Sarex]

But why stop with armor, lots of thing are size restricted in real life including weapons.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yeah it is realistic, but PoE is set in an unrealistic universe. Besides, adding in a resizing mechanic would be a bitch to implement.

[Quadrone]

 

What I'd love to get rid of is stuff like this:

-"Oh, kill Drizzt - he always carry those two Scimitar+3s"

-"That X X Inn owner sells a broadsword+1"

-"You know the barrel in the northernmost alley in Mulsantir, there you'll get a Necklace of Adaptation."

 

 

Weird, that's actually stuff I love, especially for a re-run.

Knowing to which shop to go to equip my party with some crutial items, optimizing your character early with that great class-specific item you only get from that one monster, knowing secret places to give yourself a little headstart, stuff like that...

 

So I guess I'll have to disagree with you there.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Quadrone: No worries, mate! If I really like a CRPG, I tend to do several re-runs, and I just find that stuff too tedious. I'd love to experience even more surprises as I try out new characters. I mean, there will still be plenty of meta-gaming sweetness, sure, but a little variety in the lewt department wouldn't hurt.

[Endrosz]

In PnP games, we take character size into consideration when finding armour/clothing on NPCs/enemies, and rule that it only fits if you're within a reasonable size range, but, while I personally wouldn't be opposed to this, I don't for one minute think that it'll happen in a CRPG.

Just for the record, the Troika RPGs, Arcanum and ToEE, had armor in different sizes. Arcanum had 3 sizes, small for gnomes and halflings, large for half-ogres, normal for everyone else. ToEE had 2, it didn't have large characters as playable. I did add some color to the game, but I can't say they were a whole lot better with that degree of realism added -- nevertheless, it already happened.

[J.E. Sawyer]

How much randomization we have will ultimately depend on the density of unique item placement.  I think I gave an example before of two maces or morning stars of middling power that had enough overlap that they could be randomly interchanged.

 

Additionally, our crafting/enchantment system does allow you to modify weapons -- even unique ones.  So if you have a specific group of bonuses you'd really like to have, you will probably be able to make that happen.

[Suburban-Fox]

But why stop with armor, lots of thing are size restricted in real life including weapons.

 

Again, I wouldn't be opposed to that, but that's even less likely to be implemented in a CRPG. It'd be a lot of effort for something that'll only please a small minority, and will just annoy everybody else. Maybe some games have done it, and maybe it works, but I think most players will hate the fact that they can't kill an ogre, take his sword and equip it on their halfling PC.

 

Yeah it is realistic, but PoE is set in an unrealistic universe. Besides, adding in a resizing mechanic would be a bitch to implement.

 

tbh, I'm not sure plate armour even can be resized, once the steel has been tempered/polished/whatever they do to it (I'm no armourer so I don't know the process). Sure, you can add longer leather buckles and arming points etc, but I don't think you can re-shape the metal parts. Mail, sure, you can always add more links, and leather and padded armour you can easily resize, but I'm not sure if the same is true of plate armour.

[Volourn]

"but I think most players will hate the fact that they can't kill an ogre, take his sword and equip it on their halfling PC."

 

O RLY? Who are these 'most players' as this is the first complaint of its sepcific type? I've heard nobody complain ever that they couldn't weild an ogre's sword 9espciially sicne typical fantasy ogres don't use swords lol <>).

[illathid]

Additionally, our crafting/enchantment system does allow you to modify weapons -- even unique ones.  So if you have a specific group of bonuses you'd really like to have, you will probably be able to make that happen.

 

This is really interesting. Does this apply to armor as well?

[IndiraLightfoot]

How much randomization we have will ultimately depend on the density of unique item placement.  I think I gave an example before of two maces or morning stars of middling power that had enough overlap that they could be randomly interchanged.

 

Additionally, our crafting/enchantment system does allow you to modify weapons -- even unique ones.  So if you have a specific group of bonuses you'd really like to have, you will probably be able to make that happen.

I had no idea all this was in! It's basically what I was hoping to get and then some!! Thank you.

[Kjaamor]

It doesn't hold a candle to the IE games in the RPG stakes, but one of many nice things that Might and Magic VII did was to have random "artifacts" and "relics"; extremely powerful weapons, armour and items of which only a randomly selected few appeared in each game from a table of them. It added to the decision-making process which is essential to the gameplay of cRPGs. Your knight specialises in swords, but you've just picked up this awesome axe. Do you switch to that, or utilise your mastery of swords.

 

Unfortunately, MMVII loves shooting itself in the foot, and in this instance the drops were save scummable until you got the item you wanted, which was a poor mechanic.

 

For overall balance, generally placed items are better. However a few random things into the mix keeps things interesting, and also helps to avoid a blight of RPG games, which is the idea of picking 'The wrong weapon specialisation'. 'Oh, you specialised in clubs? Yeah... we've actually not put any magic clubs in the game so those points are completely wasted. Sorry!'

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, I wouldn't want ARPG loot. Most ARPG's I play I suffer major loot fatigue... just picking it all up, when my inventory is full (much too fast) I check what's better than my current items (what a surprise, nothing again!) and sell all the useless stuff. Rinse and repeat 5 minutes later.

Fun? Not that much.  And seems to get worse each new game who wants to trump the old with 'Much more loot!'

*sigh*

 

What I suggested before (and is probably unreasonable) was that each enemy that is important, has the possibility out of 3 possible drops (per drop item) rather than the 1. All 3 fixed though.

So for example Grug the Goblin chief has as items weapon and ring. So he rolls one out 3 appointed weapons (and carries it during battle) and one of 3 appointed rings. Then next game you might get the same weapon, and other ring. Or both different. And you cannot build yourself for 'I will get the long sword +5 from boss X' and work to that, because maybe he'll have a hammer +5 this time around.

But it'll never generate fully random items with such fun stuff as getting a warrior-locked item filled with intelligence.

[Kjaamor]

Fully random is bad.

Fully fixed is good.

Almost exclusively fixed with a few high-level randoms is best.

[constantine]

 

 

What I'd love to get rid of is stuff like this:

-"Oh, kill Drizzt - he always carry those two Scimitar+3s"

-"That X X Inn owner sells a broadsword+1"

-"You know the barrel in the northernmost alley in Mulsantir, there you'll get a Necklace of Adaptation."

 

 

Weird, that's actually stuff I love, especially for a re-run.

Knowing to which shop to go to equip my party with some crutial items, optimizing your character early with that great class-specific item you only get from that one monster, knowing secret places to give yourself a little headstart, stuff like that...

 

So I guess I'll have to disagree with you there.

 

 

 

Ohhhhhh c'mon guys !!! You kill Dritzz for the scimitars ..? He should be able to insta-kill the party, as in truth NO BG1 party is able to kill him without exploiting the battle. Anyway, ok, powergamers duuuuuuh, no respect for the least itsy-bitsy part of RP. Not your fault you exist, but it's the game's fault that allows you to act in such manner.

 

 

*edit*: hopefully PoE will have what it takes not to allow such exploits

Edited April 22, 2014 by constantine

[constantine]

I'm kind of in two minds about this.

 

On the one hand, yeah, variety would be cool, and for example HotU was a lot more replayable because of the variation in loot. 

 

On the other, random loot tends to make players focus more on the loot. While loot is definitely an important part of cRPG gameplay -- and a core part in aRPG's -- for a more story- and exploration-driven game like P:E I'd prefer if it stayed to the side as it were, letting elements like story and setting come to the forefront.

 

From the sound of it, though, the Od Nua mega-dungeon sounds like it would fit well with random loot; sort of a loot-driven dungeon crawl within the larger game.

 

 

Awesome idea PrimeJunta, if anything should have randomized loot, that should be the Mega Dungeon !

 

Although it may be late now for the devs to develop a healthy tool for loot spawning .. 

[Volourn]

"Ohhhhhh c'mon guys !!! You kill Drizzt for the scimitars ..? He should be able to insta-kill the party, as in truth NO BG1 party is able to kill him without exploiting the battle"

 

Eh..   In game terms he's not exactly super tough. The books, on the other, lol.

[constantine]

"Ohhhhhh c'mon guys !!! You kill Drizzt for the scimitars ..? He should be able to insta-kill the party, as in truth NO BG1 party is able to kill him without exploiting the battle"

 

Eh..   In game terms he's not exactly super tough. The books, on the other, lol.

 

 

Eh.. In games terms he is harder than any other creature you may encounter.

 

Too many attacks which hit all the time for too much damage paired with insane magic resistance, superb saving throws and Armor Class your fighter would beg to have.

 

 

 

He can kill a full party within a few rounds.