Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[Valsuelm]

 

All the discussion regarding RF armed forces is armchair generalissimo nonsense with the nuclear armament that's in play.

 

It doesn't matter how good they are, it only matters how good they are relative to the other forces in the region. And apart from China, they could easily win a war with anyone else if it were really necessary. Except its not and there's not going to be a war because no-one wants 7000+ nuclear warheads aimed at them.

 

Besides, all that the US is doing is posturing. They're not really going to fight for Ukraine and everyone knows it. Why would they? Its just another piece of territory in the RF NATO struggle and not a critical one at that (for the US). 

 

Damn, I was hoping that since your regal return to the forums that you would  stay out of political discussions

 

There is a fellow Serb who is active in these political debates, Sarex. But he is an extremist, very jingoistic and very anti-western. He's not a bad person, he is just misinformed because he believes in conspiracy theories

 

And remember these debates are nothing personal, its just global politics

 

 

If you don't think conspiracies happen you're an exceptionally naive person. Though I'll wager you just suffer from cognitive dissonance as I'm sure you'll readily accept the conspiracy theory of the infamous Reichstag Fire or the official conspiracy theory of what happened on 9/11.

 

Here's a video you should watch, it deals specifically with the latter, but really is applicable for anyone who would ever deride a 'conspiracy theory' solely on the basis that it's a 'conspiracy theory'.

 

 

 

[Sarex]

Let me get this straight. Russia masses troops on the border ...and accuses NATO of ramping up pressure?

 

I'd laugh but I'm not sure when I'd stop.

 

You think running a state is like playing a game? If they attack, well I'll just reload and prepare my border. Russia is preparing it's borders for any eventuality, it could be an attack force but more likely it's a defensive force. The government in Kiev is not, what you would call a beacon of stability and a lot of random **** could still happen. You would agree that common logic dictates that you shore up the borders with the country you are in conflict with.

[Malcador]

Not sure what photos of military equipment at a military base are supposed to prove, without a 'before' photo to indicate an actual buildup.  The one showing "Spetznaz" was pretty rich. 

 

Russia saying NATO is saber rattling is to be expected, shrug at it like you will at warnings of the Russian Army sweeping towards Poland or something else.  Preferable to the alternative, but all this jawing is tiresome.

[213374U]

There is a fellow Serb who is active in these political debates, Sarex. But he is an extremist, very jingoistic and very anti-western. He's not a bad person, he is just misinformed because he believes in conspiracy theories

 

And remember these debates are nothing personal, its just global politics

 

Oh, wow. I somehow missed this gem. So it's "nothing personal", but you go out of your way to single someone out and belittle him in your usual holier-than-thou, fake ass amicable and thoroughly revolting condescending tone?

 

LOL

 

 

 

 

Let me get this straight. Russia masses troops on the border ...and accuses NATO of ramping up pressure?

 

I'd laugh but I'm not sure when I'd stop.

 

You think running a state is like playing a game? If they attack, well I'll just reload and prepare my border. Russia is preparing it's borders for any eventuality, it could be an attack force but more likely it's a defensive force. The government in Kiev is not, what you would call a beacon of stability and a lot of random **** could still happen. You would agree that common logic dictates that you shore up the borders with the country you are in conflict with.

 

 

My money's actually on Putin giving the go-ahead under the guise of protecting ethnic Russians at certain point after **** hits the fan in Donetsk and elsewhere, depending on how some things play out. The gov't in Kiev may be stooges and shills but they aren't about to attack Russia anytime soon.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

If you don't think conspiracies happen you're an exceptionally naive person. 

 

 

There is a difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory.  Conspiracies happen and are exposed regularly.  Conspiracy theories, however, usually ignore the most likely scenarios and often distort the facts to fit a grander scheme.  The people that embrace them are typically the naive ones, because they think that large scale subterfuge is something that realistically happens.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

If you don't think conspiracies happen you're an exceptionally naive person. 

 

 

There is a difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory.  Conspiracies happen and are exposed regularly.  Conspiracy theories, however, usually ignore the most likely scenarios and often distort the facts to fit a grander scheme.  The people that embrace them are typically the naive ones, because they think that large scale subterfuge is something that realistically happens.

 

 

Let me get this straight. So the only conspiracies that exist are the ones that are exposed? This is comical as often one of the general prerequisites to a successful conspiracy is that it is not exposed!

 

Examples sir. Examples!

 

But of course there is a difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory, it's a matter of perspective if the latter is true, and never more than just a theory if it isn't. Same of any other theory, be it a mathematical one, philosophical one, etc.

 

Are there asinine whackaloon theories out there? Yes, lots of them. I mentioned one a few pages ago: The Lizard Alien Conspiracy theory. However, a person who will dismiss a conspiracy theory purely because it's a conspiracy theory has been brainwashed to not think for themselves. Truly: if 'conspiracy theory' in any way has a negative connotation in your head, you have been brainwashed.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

If you don't think conspiracies happen you're an exceptionally naive person. Though I'll wager you just suffer from cognitive dissonance as I'm sure you'll readily accept the conspiracy theory of the infamous Reichstag Fire or the official conspiracy theory of what happened on 9/11.

 

Here's a video you should watch, it deals specifically with the latter, but really is applicable for anyone who would ever deride a 'conspiracy theory' solely on the basis that it's a 'conspiracy theory'.

 

 

 

Please tell me you are joking, please tell me that you are not going to sit there and tell me that you don't believe Al-Qaeda committed 9/11 ?

[BruceVC]

 

There is a fellow Serb who is active in these political debates, Sarex. But he is an extremist, very jingoistic and very anti-western. He's not a bad person, he is just misinformed because he believes in conspiracy theories

 

And remember these debates are nothing personal, its just global politics

 

Oh, wow. I somehow missed this gem. So it's "nothing personal", but you go out of your way to single someone out and belittle him in your usual holier-than-thou, fake ass amicable and thoroughly revolting condescending tone?

 

LOL

 

 

 

 @ 2133

 

I was about  to dismiss your comment with the usual and utter irreverence and disdain I have for most of what you say but then I realized...you are right on this occasion.

 

Seriously, no jokes

 

@ Sarex

 

I'm sorry for calling you those things, I apologize. Some of it was unfair and uncalled for.

 

[obyknven]

Donetsk Republic!

 

Moar of Odessa today

http://youtu.be/6_1m_aqdYgI

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

If you don't think conspiracies happen you're an exceptionally naive person. Though I'll wager you just suffer from cognitive dissonance as I'm sure you'll readily accept the conspiracy theory of the infamous Reichstag Fire or the official conspiracy theory of what happened on 9/11.

 

Here's a video you should watch, it deals specifically with the latter, but really is applicable for anyone who would ever deride a 'conspiracy theory' solely on the basis that it's a 'conspiracy theory'.

 

 

 

Please tell me you are joking, please tell me that you are not going to sit there and tell me that you don't believe Al-Qaeda committed 9/11 ?

 

 

What I think of 9/11 is actually irrelevant as to why I linked that video. The video is about cognitive dissonance and world view.

 

Here is another.

 

http://youtu.be/do6o57N_SVA

Edited April 10, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Sarex]

Let me get this straight. So the only conspiracies that exist are the ones that are exposed? This is comical as often one of the general prerequisites to a successful conspiracy is that it is not exposed!

 

Examples sir. Examples!

 

But of course there is a difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory, it's a matter of perspective is the latter is true, and never more than just a theory if it isn't. Same of any other theory, be it a mathematical one, philosophical one, etc.

 

Are there asinine whackaloon theories out there? Yes, lots of them. I mentioned one a few pages ago: The Lizard Alien Conspiracy theory. However, a person who will dismiss a conspiracy theory purely because it's a conspiracy theory has been brainwashed to not think for themselves. Truly: if 'conspiracy theory' in any way has a negative connotation in your head, you have been brainwashed.

 

Not to mention the people who claimed that the government is spying on it's own population were marred as crazy conspiracy theorist and were demeaned with caricatures of people with tinfoil hats. But hey, now it seems that everyone knew that the government was spying on them and no one is surprised...

 

Generally people are idiots and aren't willing to put 2 and 2 thorougher for precisely the reasons Valsuelm's videos describe.

[Valsuelm]

An interesting documentary that, amongst other things, deals with the modern world economy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a36_CwzA0bk&t=76m0s

 

I found the whole thing interesting but for the sake of being near the topic I have timestamped it to part 3.

 

If you found Zeitgeist interesting then I highly recommend checking out the work that movie is based on, in particular the financial aspect of the film. That movie was designed for the layman unfamiliar with the subjects. It's pretty good at what it does. I do not however recommend it's sequels. they are largely garbage.

 

Zeitgeist can basically be broken into two parts. The part of the financial system has many sources, but primarily I recommend checking out 'The Money Masters' by Bill Still, and this is no doubt where the creator of Zeitgeist got much of his info. There are of course many good books on the subject as well and more good documentaries. I can recommend more if you want, but if I were to only recommend one, it'd be 'The Money Masters'. It's probably the best starting documentary I know of on the subject (arguably after Zeitgeist though).

 

The other part, on religion, you'll want to check out Jordan Maxwell. Almost everything in Zeitgeist dealing with religion is based on his work, or the work of a few that came before him but are even more obscure than he is.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Much of what is happening is out in the open for the more informed reader, I don't see a conspiracy in it. Political interests are part covert and denying their existence just because you couldn't prove your case in a court of law is senseless - much of what happens in international relations can't be proven in the legalistic sense without access to classified information. That doesn't make it any less obvious.

 

If the talk of the Ukraine crisis shifts from "people yearning for freedom on the Maidan" to US-RF showdown in a day, you can pretty much be sure it was a showdown all along. The various leaked phone calls that no one really bothered to deny pretty much exposed what is going on behind the scene.

 

I do wonder where the Russians are going with this though. The people in eastern Ukraine are counting on their support, if the revolutionary government in Kiev starts using violence, which it will - they'll have to intervene. And that could directly lead to war. On the other hand, if they don't intervene those regions will be crushed and their doors to further influence the way this is going will close.

[Walsingham]

The point at which I'm arguing against 9/11 nutters is the point I go back to bed and rest.

 

Conspiracies do indeed happen. However, if you take the absence of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy then you're bat**** insane. Or a cretin. Take your pick. I'd personally recommend insane.

[Valsuelm]

The point at which I'm arguing against 9/11 nutters is the point I go back to bed and rest.

 

Conspiracies do indeed happen. However, if you take the absence of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy then you're bat**** insane. Or a cretin. Take your pick. I'd personally recommend insane.

 

9/11 nutters? Please do explain. That's an event for which there is indeed ample evidence in the public domain to support a number of theories and facts.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Agiel]

 

My money's actually on Putin giving the go-ahead under the guise of protecting ethnic Russians at certain point after **** hits the fan in Donetsk and elsewhere, depending on how some things play out. The gov't in Kiev may be stooges and shills but they aren't about to attack Russia anytime soon.

 

 

Well that's what Putin sort of wanted when he besieged the Ukranian military facilities on the Crimea and used human shield "self-defense forces" preceding their takeovers. I'd give the Ukrainian political and military leadership a little credit for not playing the Russian's game. The difference between now and Georgia 2008 was the fact that there was plenty of press in Crimea that exposed the "oppressed" Russian minority to be as belligerent and thuggish as the more militant demonstrators of the Euromaidan protests and further isolating Russia. I agree with Rostere; the Ukrainians playing the geo-political non-violent resistance card means Russia won a battle, but lost a war with Crimea.

[BruceVC]

 

The point at which I'm arguing against 9/11 nutters is the point I go back to bed and rest.

 

Conspiracies do indeed happen. However, if you take the absence of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy then you're bat**** insane. Or a cretin. Take your pick. I'd personally recommend insane.

 

9/11 nutters? Please do explain. That's an event for which there is indeed ample evidence in the public domain to support a number of theories and facts.

 

 

Vals, please take the time to read what I am about to post and then absorb it

 

Al-Qaeda perpetuated 9/11, they admitted it. There is NO other theory, there is only the truth.

 

If you doubt what I am saying please download or watch on Discovery channel "Inside 9/11", it debunks every, and I mean every, conspiracy theory about 9/11

[Valsuelm]

 

Let me get this straight. So the only conspiracies that exist are the ones that are exposed? This is comical as often one of the general prerequisites to a successful conspiracy is that it is not exposed!

 

Examples sir. Examples!

 

But of course there is a difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory, it's a matter of perspective is the latter is true, and never more than just a theory if it isn't. Same of any other theory, be it a mathematical one, philosophical one, etc.

 

Are there asinine whackaloon theories out there? Yes, lots of them. I mentioned one a few pages ago: The Lizard Alien Conspiracy theory. However, a person who will dismiss a conspiracy theory purely because it's a conspiracy theory has been brainwashed to not think for themselves. Truly: if 'conspiracy theory' in any way has a negative connotation in your head, you have been brainwashed.

 

Not to mention the people who claimed that the government is spying on it's own population were marred as crazy conspiracy theorist and were demeaned with caricatures of people with tinfoil hats. But hey, now it seems that everyone knew that the government was spying on them and no one is surprised...

 

Generally people are idiots and aren't willing to put 2 and 2 thorougher for precisely the reasons Valsuelm's videos describe.

 

 

Much of what is happening is out in the open for the more informed reader, I don't see a conspiracy in it. Political interests are part covert and denying their existence just because you couldn't prove your case in a court of law is senseless - much of what happens in international relations can't be proven in the legalistic sense without access to classified information. That doesn't make it any less obvious.

 

If the talk of the Ukraine crisis shifts from "people yearning for freedom on the Maidan" to US-RF showdown in a day, you can pretty much be sure it was a showdown all along. The various leaked phone calls that no one really bothered to deny pretty much exposed what is going on behind the scene.

 

This is often the fun thing about 'conspiracy theory' in regards to the brainwashed sheeps. It is often the case where there is indeed evidence that X is happening/happened, but it's not reported through official channels (mainstream media, government, major corporations, major educational institutions, etc) so then in the minds of those brainwashed to not think for themselves, you can show them all the evidence in the world to prove that X happened/is occurring and they will tell you you're nuts and only believe what is told to them by an official (in their minds) channel. It is especially hard to convince such a person to look at the facts if one of their official channels denies the reality of X. However, as soon as someone they perceive as being from an official channel tells them it's happened/is occurring then, and only then does it become true in their minds.

 

Sarex mentions possibly the best example of this in recent times. For anyone who has been paying attention, isn't naive, and thinks for themselves it's been known for many years that the NSA, CIA, et al have been spying bigtime on Americans and others (it's been especially obvious if a person has even a basic understanding of how electronic networks work). Snowden is not the first whistleblower by any means to shine light on this. There have been a few over the last decade+, as well as evidence it was happening right in legislation such as the Patriot Act (many sheeps don't read legislation for themselves). However none of them got the publicity that Snowden got. Snowden really didn't say much of anything new that wasn't already in the public domain at all, yet he is the one hailed as the hero/traitor, and the one official channels picked up on and made noise with. Why he got that publicity and the others didn't I'm unsure about, but I have some theories

 

Point being, that if you told many of the same people who believe all that Snowden has made public that what Snowden has made public was going on years ago, many of those people would dismiss you as a crackpot 'conspiracy theorist'. I know, I used to tell people it was happening, try to get them to think, and point them in the direction of the whistleblowers that came before Snowden as evidence. A few already knew, and of those that didn't some of course looked into it, realized it was happening, and others of course took a firm stance of indigence and denial.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Valsuelm

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The point at which I'm arguing against 9/11 nutters is the point I go back to bed and rest.

 

Conspiracies do indeed happen. However, if you take the absence of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy then you're bat**** insane. Or a cretin. Take your pick. I'd personally recommend insane.

So you mean you're a lunatic or a reprobate if you assume a shadowy, and possibly fictional, organization is behind every atrocity with flimsy evidence(at best) to support that view?

[Tagaziel]

This is often the fun thing about 'conspiracy theory' in regards to the brainwashed sheeps.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, those you call sheep are actually people impervious to manipulation by people who push shadowy agendas disguised as conspiracy theories?

[Malcador]

"Impervious to manipulation".  Well that was the joke for the day.

[Valsuelm]

 

This is often the fun thing about 'conspiracy theory' in regards to the brainwashed sheeps.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, those you call sheep are actually people impervious to manipulation by people who push shadowy agendas disguised as conspiracy theories?

 

 

 

LOL.

[Tagaziel]

"Impervious to manipulation".  Well that was the joke for the day.

The actual quote is "impervious to manipulation by people who push shadowy agendas disguised as conspiracy theories", Malc. I don't claim anyone's perfectly impervious to manipulation, but I sure as hell ain't going to be convinced by crazy people pushing their own theories as fact for personal gain. Like ol' Antoni Macierewicz and Jarosław Kaczyński, trying to ride into the Parliament and claim the government on the coffins of the 96 Polish dignitaries killed in the 2010 Smoleńsk catastrophe.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

The point at which I'm arguing against 9/11 nutters is the point I go back to bed and rest.

 

Conspiracies do indeed happen. However, if you take the absence of evidence as evidence of a conspiracy then you're bat**** insane. Or a cretin. Take your pick. I'd personally recommend insane.

 

9/11 nutters? Please do explain. That's an event for which there is indeed ample evidence in the public domain to support a number of theories and facts.

 

 

Vals, please take the time to read what I am about to post and then absorb it

 

Al-Qaeda perpetuated 9/11, they admitted it. There is NO other theory, there is only the truth.

 

If you doubt what I am saying please download or watch on Discovery channel "Inside 9/11", it debunks every, and I mean every, conspiracy theory about 9/11

 

 

BruceVC, please take the time to read what I am about to post and then absorb it.

 

There is a boogie man under your bed, and sometimes in your closet!

 

 

 

If you doubt what I am saying about what's under your bed and in your closet, good. There is at least one fantasy and myth you don't believe.

 

I watch the DSC's doc years ago. It's pretty horribly produced, aimed at the uninformed, and really doesn't do much to inform (like so many other things on that channel). Better to watch:

 

 

The above is probably the most comprehensive best single documentary on 9/11 out there. It's definitely the best I've seen in regards to being comprehensive, and I've watched dozens at this point. It's ~5 hours and really does a good job going over the synopsis of 9/11. By no means is it the end all be all on it, and it doesn't pretend to be. Other videos are still worth watching too, but this one is a must see if you're at all interested in the reality of that day.

 

I challenge anyone to watch that all the way through and not come away questioning at least some of the official narrative on what happened that day.

 

In your case BruceVC, sadly, I doubt you'll watch it as it will challenge your world view. Just so you know though, it discusses the DSC documentary and other documentaries as well.

 

Edited April 10, 2014 by Valsuelm

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

This is often the fun thing about 'conspiracy theory' in regards to the brainwashed sheeps.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, those you call sheep are actually people impervious to manipulation by people who push shadowy agendas disguised as conspiracy theories?

No, you're just a brainwashed sheep because you don't believe what I believe.