Support the Ban Bossy campaign

[teknoman2]

all gypsies are dirty thieves

all roma are dirty thieves

the second frase is not racist because it does not call them gypsies, but uses the term that in their language means human... becoming "all humans are dirty thieves"

the genius of politically correct use of language

in terraria you kill rainbow unicorns with a flamethrower

Edited March 12, 2014 by teknoman2

[Leferd]

But stating "all Roma are dirty thieves" is still a negative ethnic stereotype with racist undertones.

[teknoman2]

But stating "all Roma are dirty thieves" is still a negative ethnic stereotype with racist undertones.

not in the politically correct language. for it's supporters using roma instead of gypsy is enough for the coment to not be offensive. go figure

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Did I just... watch a white man rave in an increasingly hysterical tone about how the evil marxist jews have always conspired to tear down All That America Stands For? Really?

[alanschu]

I finally had a chance to read the link a bit more thoroughly:

 

Is it just me, or is this thread an entirely irrelevant semantic argument given that the link in the original post doesn't actually have anything to do with removing the word "bossy" from our vernacular, but to instead examine the context with which it is used when discerning similar behaviours between young boys and young girls and how one is considered a pejorative and to make us think about why that happens?

 

 

I mean, I guess you can disagree with the thesis (which is what I think Amentep tried to do in post 16).

 

I see "It is about the word" and how "we should treat the problem not the symptom" when, at least to me, the entire point of the website is that the use of the term bossy for young women that behave the same way as young boys who are instead called leaders. One term has a negative connotation, and the point of the website is to illustrate that disparity. For *some* reason, it's considered unappealing for a young girl to behave that way so we ascribe a negative word (whatever that word may be - I'm intentionally using the term "negative word" instead of "bossy" here). To me it seems pretty clear that the thesis is "young girls are treated differently than young men in these situations, and are looked down upon it for doing so." Not "lets remove bossy from our vocabular."

 

Now, some of hinted that they disagree with this thesis outright (same Amentep post), though to be honest I'm so far removed from being a young child that I certainly cannot provide any anecdotes that would or would not support the idea that young girls were more likely to be called bossy and to deal with the stigma of having that label.

 

 

Distilling away the "does this divide actually happen" I do ask, assuming this distinction is true, do people here feel it's a problem? If not, why not? Is asking this question truly "treating a symptom" or does (should?) it cause people to wonder WHY a campaign like this even starts up?

 

I'm definitely in the latter.

Edited March 12, 2014 by alanschu

[Hiro Protagonist]

Personally, I find the site discriminatory. I've seen many male bossy supervisors and managers in my career and they were not being assertive. No idea why bossy and female seem to be linked on the site and no mention of bossy males.

[Malcador]

They sure chose a bad title. Wonder how my generation or the one before managed, sometimes.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I mean, I guess you can disagree with the thesis

 

I wouldn't be calling it a thesis. It's far from a thesis as you can get.

[Orogun01]

Personally, I find the site discriminatory. I've seen many male bossy supervisors and managers in my career and they were not being assertive. No idea why bossy and female seem to be linked on the site and no mention of bossy males.

You fail to grasp the tenets of modern feminism, I'll help you.

Women are perfect, if a woman has a flaw the fault lies with the Patriarchy.

A woman can do anything a man does but does not need to do it or be capable of doing it and should regardless be considered equal.

All men are rapists and oppressors, therefore men cannot be considered to suffer of anything a woman can because of their privilege.

 

Are you getting the picture?

[Hiro Protagonist]

One of the problems with the site is “bossy” and “leader” aren’t the same thing, by any stretch. We can’t swap one for the other because they aren’t synonymous. Rarely is a bossy person ever a good leader. Bossy girls or boys aren’t always leaders. A good leader is one that communicates the paths to achieve the goal in an articulate manner, while establishing teamwork via a coherent vision. In other words, when the leader comes across as knowledgable, the team becomes confident. When the leader appears to be ignorant while demanding others do as they say, they are seen as arrogant bullies. And this is not just at work, but also in schools. Male or female, many kids go their entire lives without ever being called “bossy” and they become bosses. Really good ones.

[Oerwinde]

Discussing this at work and everyone at work agreed that bossy is generally a term used to describe children who order other children around when they really shouldn't be doing so. At least thays how we all use the word. For girls and boys.

[alanschu]

 

Personally, I find the site discriminatory. I've seen many male bossy supervisors and managers in my career and they were not being assertive. No idea why bossy and female seem to be linked on the site and no mention of bossy males.

You fail to grasp the tenets of modern feminism, I'll help you.

Women are perfect, if a woman has a flaw the fault lies with the Patriarchy.

A woman can do anything a man does but does not need to do it or be capable of doing it and should regardless be considered equal.

All men are rapists and oppressors, therefore men cannot be considered to suffer of anything a woman can because of their privilege.

 

Are you getting the picture?

 

Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

(Successful troll attempt though, since reading it literally pissed me off! \o/)

 

 

No idea why bossy and female seem to be linked on the site and no mention of bossy males.

Well here's a tip for you. The site is putting forward the idea that it is applied more commonly to girls for the same behaviour than boys would be considered leaders (a trait with more positive connotations). Glad I could clear that up for you.

 

You're welcome to disagree with that assertion (as Oerwinde does in the post above this one).

Edited March 13, 2014 by alanschu

[Hiro Protagonist]

Well here's a tip for you. The site is putting forward the idea that it is applied more commonly to girls for the same behaviour than boys would be considered leaders. Glad I could clear that up for you.

 

You're welcome to disagree with that assertion (as Oerwinde does in the post above this one).

 

 

Well here's a tip for you. Read my post that says “bossy” and “leader” aren’t the same thing, by any stretch. We can’t swap one for the other because they aren’t synonymous. So a bossy female and male leader aren't the same thing. The same as a bossy male and female leader aren't the same thing. Similarly, a bossy female and a female leader aren't the same thing. Glad I could clear that up for you.

 

And Oerwinde disagrees with my assertion? Where? If anything Oerwinde agrees with my assertion that bossy should be linked to both girls and boys. 

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[Garryydde]

This has to be a joke, it has to be. People can't possibly be THAT stupid, then again my overestimation of humanity's intelligence has burned me before.

[Valsuelm]

 

Did I just... watch a white man rave in an increasingly hysterical tone about how the evil marxist jews have always conspired to tear down All That America Stands For? Really?

 

 

Not really, no you didn't. If that's what you saw.... well.... I'm probably wasting my time right now.... so I'll stop.

[alanschu]

One of the problems with the site is “bossy” and “leader” aren’t the same thing, by any stretch. We can’t swap one for the other because they aren’t synonymous. Rarely is a bossy person ever a good leader. Bossy girls or boys aren’t always leaders. A good leader is one that communicates the paths to achieve the goal in an articulate manner, while establishing teamwork via a coherent vision. In other words, when the leader comes across as knowledgable, the team becomes confident. When the leader appears to be ignorant while demanding others do as they say, they are seen as arrogant bullies. And this is not just at work, but also in schools. Male or female, many kids go their entire lives without ever being called “bossy” and they become bosses. Really good ones.

 

I honestly cannot say that I have ever seen someone so thoroughly fail to grasp what comes across as such a straight forward and simple assertion. You're right that bossy and leader aren't the same... so tick one on failure at critical thinking. The thesis provided is that boys will do a particular act (whatever that act is) and be called a leader for it, while a girl doing that exact same act will more likely be called bossy.

 

You're right that people you would consider bossy aren't always leaders. So tick two on failure for understanding the message being presented. As stated, the argument being presented in the link is that the girls are more likely to be called bossy while a boy doing the exact same behaviour will be called a leader.

 

What you think is a good leader (or bossy) is actually not relevant to the discussion. Tick three. What you should be asking is "what are the actions being described?" Because what Hiro Protagonist considers to be bossy/leader is irrelevant. Because, and I'll peel away those evil words since you seem to be struggling with them: when little boys behave in a particular way they are being presented with a more positive label than when little girls behave in the same way. I hope you're still with me here?

 

 

I'm feeling generous, so I'm going to list "things you shouldn't do" (they weaken your argument and typically waste people's time) coupled with "things you should do" (they demonstrate sound criticisms and things to keep in mind that can be applied more universally than just these topic even!)

 

 

Things you shouldn't do because they're irrelevant and demonstrate a failure of understanding what is being presented, coupled with utterly abysmal debating skills:

 

1) Say that you know boys that are bossy, and question why they aren't brought up. The thesis (argument, if you will, or some other synonym since you used the word synonym I can have a reasonable assurance that you know what that word means...) put forward is that FOR THE SAME BEHAVIOUR (hint: applying what you THINK they are referring to is irrelevant. I recognize based on past experience that you have fundamental deficiencies in recognizing this reality, but in the hopes of educating you here's what you need to do: find out specifically what behaviours they are referring to, so you can have an actual informed opinion on the topic, rather than stumbling around rambling irrelevant anecdotes).

 

TL;DR "Cool story, bro"

 

2) Share an anecdote and assume that it means anything. Because they typically don't, because few things like this speak in absolutes. No one is asserting that ALL people call ALL girls bossy when they would ALL call ALL boys leaders. That you think this is *wrong.* Please be less wrong in the future. Now granted, most people here are just like everywhere else and will overemphasize their own life experience. But since you had "no idea" about what was going on on the site, hopefully this helps!

 

TL;DR "Cool story, bro" (again)

 

 

3) When you have no idea about something (which you've made exceptionally clear), you invalidate your assertions. Given that you have no idea why bossy and female are linked on the site (and I believe you when you say that), I *strongly* encourage you take the time to get SOME sort of idea before commenting, lest you do what you did in this thread and post several posts that demonstrate that you don't actually understand what's going on. Here's a helpful reminder: "if you ever use the phrase 'no idea' when assessing your understanding of something... don't chime in."

 

TL;DR "Best to not share your thoughts on something that you have no idea about."

 

 

Now for some meaningful questions that are actually related to the site at hand.

 

First, and a pretty strong argument to open up with right out of the gate: "Are little girls actually more likely to be called bossy for the same actions that little boys do?" Here's the biggest, most blatant issue with the link in the OP: Is the reality it is asserting actually a problem? Now there's a degree of critical thinking here: Is the issue *really* the use of a particular word (it's not). 37 seconds on the site makes it clear that it's referring to issues that young girls have in terms of self-esteem/confidence, and being willing to put themselves out there to be leaders and vision holders. Now I understand the simple, lazy thing to do is to just look at "Ban Bossy." But, as we've established earlier... best to have some idea, rather than no idea, about the discussion before talking about it!

 

So to give you some live ammunition, rather than the blanks/duds you've been using: point out that they actually don't provide any support that their assertion is true. That's super useful! I tried looking for some, but unfortunately all I really came up with is more references to this movement... which isn't very helpful. Without evidence, the thesis is actually just a hypothesis! Supplemental: by framing the statement they way they did, they exercised the "begging the question" logical fallacy, which is where the conclusion of the thesis is assumed to be true by the statement. It's completely valid to question whether the thesis is correct.

 

 

TL;DR "It's useful to simply ask, is the thesis put forward accurate? Is there any empirical study that (dis)proves the hypothesis.

(WARNING: always remember that a single study is useful, but it's possible that unanticipated variables things. So always be open that the study's conclusion *may* be not be accurate)

 

 

 

Another very important thing to do, if you are still stuck on the use of the words bossy and leader: Find out what behaviours the study is talking about. Some more live ammo for you: they don't really talk about this... the site more talks about various strategies for helping young girls build confidence... which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't really help us understand what behaviours they are talking about. Are they talking about being loud? Telling other people what to do? Coaching people? I don't know what the answer is to this question, and that is a major failing of the idea! These are the knockout punches you have available to you. Not "well I know some boys and they were bossy" or "bossy isn't the same as leader" with further explanations that reinforce that you have no idea what's going on.

 

 

TL;DR "Clarify what actions the group is talking about. Words like 'bossy' and 'leader' are not entirely clear. They may be misusing the word and it's immeasureably useful to know that so that you can have better than no idea what is going on."

 

 

 

Take these and practice them. Forget about using points 1-3 of the stuff you shouldn't do. It undermines your position and shows you're not prepared to actually discuss the topic. Anecdotes, while interesting, are often meaningless. If you do have to use an anecdote, it's useful to acknowledge that it's an anecdote because by doing so, you're making it clear that you understand that your experiences may not actually be applied more generally.

[Hiro Protagonist]

A whole lot of rubbish.

 

Alan, some points for you to take in.

 

It's not a thesis. Tick one on failure at critical thinking.

 

And many more ticks on failure at critical thinking. I don't have the time to list them all.

 

TL;DR "Cool story, bro" 

 

Yeah 'cool story bro'. How about using that critical thing? No? Okay. Go ahead with your long winded straw man arguments, irrelevancies and red herrings.

[alanschu]

Addendum (since I missed it):

 

A third good point to actually bring up is that the site's marketing "ban bossy" is misleading and leads to confusion. Malcador did point this out though, IIRC. And it's a good thing to say and it's a debating point whether or not exposure like that is useful because it gets people thinking, or it just makes people assume the wrong things.

[Calax]

Ban Bossy because it's totally Retarded.

 

Ban Retarded because it's totally Gay dude!

[ManifestedISO]

It's rare the arrant dressing-down that cannot be labeled a harangue. Canadian 'ticks' are straight deadly. 

 

I feel like I should improve what I contribute now ... but I thought this thread was a polite rainbow trolling, anyway. Not that children's self-esteem isn't important. 

 

   

[BruceVC]

Addendum (since I missed it):

 

A third good point to actually bring up is that the site's marketing "ban bossy" is misleading and leads to confusion. Malcador did point this out though, IIRC. And it's a good thing to say and it's a debating point whether or not exposure like that is useful because it gets people thinking, or it just makes people assume the wrong things.

 

Honestly for me the purpose of the campaign is not about banning the actual word "bossy". Its about encouraging young girls to be confident and to be able to achieve anything in life. But the way the website is marketed  and designed this message is misunderstood, all people see is that the website is suggesting " we ban the word bossy"  and somehow that is going help with gender equality. I am normally happy to debate these types of issues by myself and I was prepared to explain this over and over again but when Hurlshot also didn't get it then I realized that this type of message using this type of mechanism would never achieve its purpose.

 

Remember also bare in mind certain people on this website will always reject and joke about any discussion around topics like gender equality, I have come to accept that and its fine. But whatever the campaign or initiative is you have to have  a message that your average person understands and is prepared to support. That is why I disengaged from this discussion

[Bartimaeus]

Okay/good sentiment, (I mean, I haven't really seen it happen myself - I've often seen "bossy" applied to both boys and girls...though I'll admit that I can't think of any times I've heard of a girl being called a "good leader", so that probably says something in itself - and I see absolutely no reason not to support either gender as long as it does not elevate one above the other, which I don't think the basic sentiment of this does), doubleplusungood (it seems to me) execution. Let's not 1984 ourselves anymore than need be, okay? Support campaigns that have both good intentions AND good means for those intentions becoming reality. From what I can see of this page, it seems to be at least sort of on target, but I think they should've focused on something - anything, really - besides "ban bossy".

 

P.S: People are getting really bent out of shape over this. 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

Okay/good sentiment, (I mean, I haven't really seen it happen myself - I've often seen "bossy" applied to both boys and girls...though I'll admit that I can't think of any times I've heard of a girl being called a "good leader", so that probably says something in itself - and I see absolutely no reason not to support either gender as long as it does not elevate one above the other, which I don't think the basic sentiment of this does), doubleplusungood (it seems to me) execution. Let's not 1984 ourselves anymore than need be, okay? Support campaigns that have both good intentions AND good means for those intentions becoming reality. From what I can see of this page, it seems to be at least sort of on target, but I think they should've focused on something - anything, really - besides "ban bossy".

 

P.S: People are getting really bent out of shape over this. 

 

Barti certain people say they are getting upset because they think this is a campaign to curtail there free speech and its ineffective. But the real reason is that they are tired of getting reminded about issues around gender inequality. But there wouldn't be all this awareness if there wasn't still a problem. Thats the way I see it

 

But to be honest if someone of your generation can at least recognize that there aren't enough  examples of people saying things about women like "she is a good leader" thats a positive step. And the objective of these types of campaigns is ultimately to raise awareness. So this is a victory even though it may seem like a minor statement from you

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

Honestly for me the purpose of the campaign is not about banning the actual word "bossy". Its about encouraging young girls to be confident and to be able to achieve anything in life. But the way the website is marketed  and designed this message is misunderstood, all people see is that the website is suggesting " we ban the word bossy"  and somehow that is going help with gender equality. I am normally happy to debate these types of issues by myself and I was prepared to explain this over and over again but when Hurlshot also didn't get it then I realized that this type of message using this type of mechanism would never achieve its purpose.

 

Remember also bare in mind certain people on this website will always reject and joke about any discussion around topics like gender equality, I have come to accept that and its fine. But whatever the campaign or initiative is you have to have  a message that your average person understands and is prepared to support. That is why I disengaged from this discussion

 

 

Maybe they should have used the 'ban bossy' message as being something attributed to both boys and girls. Like don't be bossy, be a leader to both genders. That would have been a better message. And not single out one gender as being bossy (girls) and comparing it to leadership with another (boys) when they say the exact same thing. The fact is that they don't actually give an example of that same exact thing. It's deceptive hyperbole.

 

But then I guess it would come across as another type of anti-bullying encouragement building site and drown in the hundreds of other anti-bullying encouragement building websites if it was aimed at both genders. Easier to aim it at one gender and get the emotional responses that it's received.