Ukraine burns

[Sarex]

Not sure what are you refering to 'full of it' however east of ukraine is where most of industry is, if they split up they can just kill those people now before they die from hunger and povetry. Its exatly what would Russia like, take Crimean (military base, economy, access to black sea) and put rest on shouldrs of EU and then laught that they are unnable to stabilise its economics.

 

BTW which of my point is flat?

 

First you said, "wouldnt be easier to just invite them back to Russia and helping them there instead of invading other country", then you said "I would not suggest to move them because ethnicity, but because they invited occupation army into sovereign country. eg - traitors.".

[Chilloutman]

 

Not sure what are you refering to 'full of it' however east of ukraine is where most of industry is, if they split up they can just kill those people now before they die from hunger and povetry. Its exatly what would Russia like, take Crimean (military base, economy, access to black sea) and put rest on shouldrs of EU and then laught that they are unnable to stabilise its economics.

 

BTW which of my point is flat?

 

First you said, "wouldnt be easier to just invite them back to Russia and helping them there instead of invading other country", then you said "I would not suggest to move them because ethnicity, but because they invited occupation army into sovereign country. eg - traitors.".

 

I dont see any contradiction in it, however there was question mark at that first sentence, maybe that confused you?

[Rostere]

Rostere, you will have to do better research on native population of Crimean and why there is much more Russians now. And please dont call what Russians did there 'resettlement' few milions of people died in concentration camps during these 'resettlements'

 

Sure, we can call it "ethnic cleansing" or even a petty genocide if you want, but that is really a red herring - it is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The native population of Crimea were not ethnic Ukrainians but Crimean Tatars, as I have said. They are not related ethnically with Ukrainians. They speak a Turkic language. It's a completely different people. They don't belong in Ukraine any more than India belongs in England. The end line of that is that it leaves Ukraine with no serious claim on Crimea, since the only reason Crimea belonged to Ukraine in the first place is that Khrushchev happened to draw the border that way during some crayon session in the Kremlin.

 

Let them have a referendum on independence and we'll see what they think. Like I wrote, the provisional government has already begun wooing them for their support.

[Chilloutman]

 

Rostere, you will have to do better research on native population of Crimean and why there is much more Russians now. And please dont call what Russians did there 'resettlement' few milions of people died in concentration camps during these 'resettlements'

 

Sure, we can call it "ethnic cleansing" or even a petty genocide if you want, but that is really a red herring - it is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The native population of Crimea were not ethnic Ukrainians but Crimean Tatars, as I have said. They are not related ethnically with Ukrainians. They speak a Turkic language. It's a completely different people. They don't belong in Ukraine any more than India belongs in England. The end line of that is that it leaves Ukraine with no serious claim on Crimea, since the only reason Crimea belonged to Ukraine in the first place is that Khrushchev happened to draw the border that way during some crayon session in the Kremlin.

 

Let them have a referendum on independence and we'll see what they think. Like I wrote, the provisional government has already begun wooing them for their support.

 

1. Well it surly is not irrelevant - I suppose you are not from post soviet country so you cant probably understand

2. what left there of Tatars feels as part of Ukraine, definetely not part of Russia (but becasue they are not mayority there after Stalin reign you probably dont know about it but a lot of people still remeber how their fathers where deported to concentration camps by Stain - at least most of his statues where torn down during that revolution (at least something positive happend there)

Edited March 3, 2014 by Chilloutman

[pmp10]

Let them have a referendum on independence and we'll see what they think. Like I wrote, the provisional government has already begun wooing them for their support.

You can't seriously think that anyone would hold a honest referendum on this issue?

Neither side would accept unfavorable outcome anyway.

Edited March 3, 2014 by pmp10

[213374U]

But this is fundamentally a question of how many people support secession, and on what grounds. I think there are several parts of Europe which have some reasonable claim for independence: Basque Country, Catalonia

 

I guess you'd have to clarify what you mean by "reasonable", but pending that, the comment is off the mark in my experience. Catalonia, where the push for independence is more politically solid, is mostly "meh" about the issue, as illustrated by the low turnout of the unofficial town "referendums" conducted in the past five years or so. They will only rally to the independence cause if somebody makes a point of telling them that they do not actually have a right to be independent. In the Basque Country, actual independentism is more a politicized topic that parties love to trump up than an actual issue for people (Euskera is a difficult language and is still very much minoritary). Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for giving people the political freedom to secede—something that is not present in the current Spanish Constitution—but you should not mistake the propaganda efforts of a bunch of loud-mouthed corrupt buffoons for the actual will of the people.

[Tagaziel]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738

 

The Russian military has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 03:00 GMT to surrender or face an assault, Ukrainian defence sources have said.

Putin's insane.

[Sarex]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738

 

The Russian military has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 03:00 GMT to surrender or face an assault, Ukrainian defence sources have said.

Putin's insane.

 

 

Excuse me if I don't believe them, but I guess we will find out if they were telling the truth at 03:00 GMT.

[obyknven]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26424738

 

The Russian military has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 03:00 GMT to surrender or face an assault, Ukrainian defence sources have said.

Putin's insane.

 

Source - Ukrainian ministry of defense.   These posers in Kiev don't control situation in Crimea  and constantly produce disinformation from first days of Crimean crisis. Not trusted source. 

 

We think usurpers want steal so much money as they can and flee. For cover of this plans they constantly try escalate conflict. They even make mobilization (quite useless - no money, no gear, no armament - everything is stolen, time for  mobilization is 1-2 moths)  for steal more money for "protect of homeland". They just bunch of pathetic criminals.

 

They begin fight against each others also. Very soon rats begin flee from the ship. Euromaidan leaders:

http://youtu.be/eC9ht5vtKqo

Edited March 3, 2014 by obyknven

[Tagaziel]

Excuse me if I don't believe them, but I guess we will find out if they were telling the truth at 03:00 GMT.

I didn't believe Russia would be stupid enough to invade Crimea, but lo and behold, they did. And they laid siege to Ukrainian military bases on the shores of the Black Sea. This isn't inconsistent.

 

Aaaand it's official:

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Edited March 3, 2014 by Tagaziel

[obyknven]

 

Excuse me if I don't believe them, but I guess we will find out if they were telling the truth at 03:00 GMT.

I didn't believe Russia would be stupid enough to invade Crimea, but lo and behold, they did. And they laid siege to Ukrainian military bases on the shores of the Black Sea. This isn't inconsistent.

 

You dont understand. Putin make this invansion just for trolling and have loots of lulz today. In other words it's just spectactle, roleplay game, but you are too serious about this.

[Malcador]

They deny sending any such ultimatum, according to Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/ukraine-crisis-russia-control-crimea-live).

 

Hard to tell from the outside, I guess.

[obyknven]

Yesss!!!! This war so sucessfull! World markets fall! Putin just buy entire USA soon. Bears gooo! (Psst! Especially for idiots - any war do for profit, not for something else, capitalism everywhere)

http://www.pressherald.com/news/World_markets_fall_as_tension_rises_in_Ukraine.html

[alanschu]

I found this link interesting, if it's true.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html

 

 

(apologies if this has been brought up already)

[Mor]

They deny sending any such ultimatum, according to Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/ukraine-crisis-russia-control-crimea-live).

 

Hard to tell from the outside, I guess.

or good old disinformation campaign while they solidify their assets.

[obyknven]

I found this link interesting, if it's true.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html

 

 

(apologies if this has been brought up already)

Yep. But USA don't want into war against Russia, and just throw away this treaty into garbage. Any treaty with USA about protection is useless paper, Georgians can prove this.

Most lul'z thing is how China watch this Russian performance in Ukraine, but thinknig about Taiwan and other ilsand's.  

 

[Mor]

By supporting Crimean independence, Russia is betting that Crimea will side with them instead of the EU. They have already lost Ukraine or otherwise they wouldn't be doing this, which will upset Ukraine to the point where no immediate reconciliation is possible.

Sure. Just a minor nit pick, instead of "supporting" Crimean independence "orchestrating" would be far more appropriate ( i.e. the German ww2 refernce someone mentioned above )

 

Similarly to how they tried to portrayed themselves as the generous saviors of Ukraine in the recent financial deal that tied Ukraine to Russia, leading to the Euromaiden protests. When actually they orchestrated that Ukrainian financial crisis, so that Ukrain don't join the EU, and swooped in to pick up the pieces with that "generous" deal( that you can refuse)

 

If Russia subjects Crimea to a military regime against their will, then that would be awful - but not them allowing the Crimeans a chance at independence. These are two different things.

Who established what Crimea wants? was there any vote, attempts to resolve the situation, or any kind of international forum to assess the situation? Because it looks like more Russian single minded self interests aggression like in Georgia.

 

Crimea has never been part of Ukraine until the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, himself a half-Ukrainian, gave it to Ukraine. Crimean Russians shouldn't go back to Russia from Ukraine because Crimea is not a natural part of Ukraine any more than Brittany belongs to the UK or Poland to Germany.

First of all he didn't gave it to "Ukraine" but he made adjustments to districts within the soviet union which Ukraine was part of. Russia has no more claims to either districts of former Soviet union, then imperialist UK to any of its colonies or Germany to territories of Nazi Germany.(even if they have a nice German majority) Otherwise tomorrow they can decides to invade Belarus for example.

 

Sure, we can call it "ethnic cleansing" or even a petty genocide if you want, but that is really a red herring - it is completely irrelevant to the current discussion. The native population of Crimea were not ethnic Ukrainians but Crimean Tatars, as I have said. They are not related ethnically with Ukrainians.

True, but they support Ukrainie, in fact they have been the major force in pro-Ukrainian against separatism in recent Crimean protest. Edited March 3, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Likewise for the other side.

[Cultist]

REALLY? Of all people, Kerry? Kerry? It was kinda fitting he lost to Bush.

[Mor]

Likewise for the other side.

The other side is not the one who violated the sovereignty of another state after two days of minor protest. Btw People like to bring up former Yugoslavia, do you recall how much time the International community spent on resolving the issue until they took action there or what was the catalyst? Edited March 3, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

The other side is not the one who violated the sovereignty of another state after two days of minor protest. Btw People like to bring up former Yugoslavia, do you recall how much time the International community spent on resolving the issue until they took action there or what was the catalyst?

True, but both sides have reasons to lie. Though, with the Russians' strong stance I'd imagine they just openly issue the ultimatum.

[obyknven]

As we predicted Kievan usurpers plan use Ukrainian army and SBU not against Crimean selfdefence, but  against peaceful protesters from East Ukraine.

http://youtu.be/BK6DrzEj3x8

Ukrainian SBU special forces in Donetsk. SBU officially tied with Neo-nazi Right sector now.

[Meshugger]

REALLY? Of all people, Kerry? Kerry? It was kinda fitting he lost to Bush.

 

While not exactly the same situation, the rhetoric is hilariously ironic.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile on bbc

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26415789

 

best rated comments.

 

65. Wirralman82
7 Hours ago

Hold a referendum in Crimea asking if they want to be part of ukraine or russia. UN stands in favour of self determination, Crimea was part of russia till the 50's, I think the people there want to go back, let them decide and keep out of it UK, we got enough on our plates already.

Report this comment (Comment number 65)

Link to this (Comment number 65)
 
+83
Comment number 8. 8MM
8 Hours ago

Gotta love the hypocrisy in these situations… It's fine for the US, UK and rest of Europe to go into far flung foreign countries and bomb the hell out of regimes, but NOT fine for Russia to protect and defend areas along it border than have real and verified Russian interests! Remember it was "The West" that wanted to arm Islamic Extremists in Syria!

 

 
+82
Comment number 30. Lemog
8 Hours ago

Considering that the UK and USA invaded Iraq on the pretext of the country having WMD, I think its a bit rich criticising Russia.

 

 
+70
Comment number 33. DarwinsGhost
8 Hours ago

11. illusion

" Lets impose lots of trade sanctions on them and then see how long they can continue to go solo. "

You seem to forget that the UK, Ukraine and several other European countries depend on Russian gas for their heating and electricity.

 

 
+66
Comment number 16. Bildeborg
8 Hours ago

I thought it rather rich of Kerry on the news last night pontificating on the wrongs of invading another country's territory...pots and kettles anyone?

 

 
+60
Comment number 126. Wakeupthesheeple
7 Hours ago

The US Secretary of State John Kerry said about Russia yesterday: "You just don't invade another country on a phony pretext in order to assert your interests". He even managed not to laugh afterwards. Even by the extremely hypocritical standards of US and Western politicians, that has to be one of the most hilarious statements ever made.

 

 
+52
Comment number 76. Fedupwithwords
7 Hours ago

Cyprus 1974 all over again, Turkey invaded to 'protect its people' and never left after annexing the island
Let Ukraine sort out their own problems 'cos I am sick and tired of interfering politicians getting me involved and telling me it is 'just and right' no it is not but the people wanted change and now have it, if it leads to civil war so be it that is the people of Ukraines choice not ours

 

 
+48
Comment number 209. 0racle
7 Hours ago

Some people need to get real. Never in a million years is Russia going to allow its naval base in the Black Sea to be controlled by anti-Russian interests. The US or the UK would be doing exactly the same in the circumstances. The area has always been under Russian influence, even well before the rise of the USSR. The West needs to stop its empty rhetoric and engage in sensible diplomacy.

 

 
+42
Comment number 29. Muumipeikko
8 Hours ago

How can John Kerry.. condem Russia for coming up with trumped up reasons for invasion when his country along with ours dreampt up the WMD which could launch in 60 minutes (despits not existing) as a trumped up excuse to invade Iraq. Didn't Russia (and a lot of Europe0 condemus for our invasion? Pat calling the kettle black?

 

etc.

 

Western politics against own people.

[Volourn]

 Oby is salivating at the taste of Ukranian blood. It's funny that Putin and his alckies claim this is to defend Russians yet Putin has no problem murdering fellow Russians WHO LIVE IN RUSSIA. LMAO On top of that, Cremia isn't Russian. It's Ukranian. This is an invasion.  The Cremian Russians are in less danger from fellow ukranians than theya re from Putin's Russia.

 

 

"Didn't Russia (and a lot of Europe0 condemus for our invasion? Pat calling the kettle black?"

 

Yup. Putin has shown - no surprise to me - he is a hypocrite. No excuse for invading sorveign countries, RIOHT Putin? LMAO

 

Of course, Western gov't are cowards just like the Russian gov't is. All talk no action. And, the Ukranians will be the ones to suffer.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Volourn