"Internet Trolls Really are Horrible People"

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Trolls are horrible people because all people are horrible.

 

The only innocent are the unborn.

 

[may be trolling]

[Sargallath Abraxium]

 

 

...peoples takes theyselves faaaar too seriously these days...hells, half ya's'd prolly be in tears right now, were this the ol' BIS boards...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[BruceVC]

le

 

 

...peoples takes theyselves faaaar too seriously these days...hells, half ya's'd prolly be in tears right now, were this the ol' BIS boards...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

 

I've heard this before that people nowadays are more serious and can't take a joke. That may be so or it may be the new online reality we live in where people are less tolerant of anti-social Internet behaviour or people that think its funny to be offensive or for example are dismissive of issues around equality

[Amentep]

 

 

A Troll is basically someone who has several dysfunctional mental traits.

Or its someone who thinks that maybe people shouldn't take themselves or the things they like so seriously - including their own posts/comments.

 

 

There is a big difference between trolling and being a troll.  We all have our trollish moments.

 

An actual troll is probably spending more time online than they are in real life, and they are completely disassociating themselves from reality when they do so.  That's not good.  Muy Malo.

 

If everyone trolls, then at what level do you trip from being a normal, upstanding internet citizen engaging in a bit of tomfoolery and high-spiritedness when trolling and transition to knuckle dragging, disassociated from reality shut-in whose only joy in life is to make others miserable when trolling?

 

It sounds like you're arguing for a standard with no clear delineation between the two groups.

 

I've heard this before that people nowadays are more serious and can't take a joke. That may be so or it may be the new online reality we live in where people are less tolerant of anti-social Internet behaviour or people that think its funny to be offensive or for example are dismissive of issues around equality

I've been on the internet since the early 90s is some form or fashion. My experience is that it really hasn't changed much in terms of the pro-social behavior, the anti-social behavior and the strata between.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Amentep

[Keyrock]

There is a difference between having a bit of fun with someone and doing it in a non-aggressive and good spirited way and trolling.  Yes, the line between good spirited fun and trolling can definitely get blurry, which is part of the reason I am quite happy I am not a moderator on an internet forum any longer and have no desire to be one again (since I've had to make that distinction and take appropriate action in the past).  As an example of good spirited fun, I have recently poked some fun at Bruce for his fascination with video game romances.  I tried to make it very clear that I am just having a bit of fun and am not being serious.  I hope Bruce sees it that way too.

 

And believe me, I've typed out posts before that I regretted typing.  The vast majority of the time I've stopped myself before clicking "post" when the realization "dude, you're being an idiot and an a-hole" comes over me, but sometimes that realization doesn't come soon enough.  At that point, the best course of action is to apologize as soon as possible.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Keyrock

[Sargallath Abraxium]

 

I've heard this before that people nowadays are more serious and can't take a joke. That may be so or it may be the new online reality we live in where people are less tolerant of anti-social Internet behaviour or people that think its funny to be offensive or for example are dismissive of issues around equality

 

...save the schoolyard psychology...we ain't talkin' online hate crimes 'ere, most o' what y'all consider ta be "trollin'" be jus' a bit o' Pokin' & Baitin' in the debate, whate'er said debate may be...peoples get theys undies in a bunch o'er nothin' all the time...get a tissue, build a bridge, etc, etc, etc...people is people...all o' us can be horrible, all o' us can be spectacular, all o' us is human...labels, like humor, be subjective...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

A Troll is basically someone who has several dysfunctional mental traits.

 

I've been on the internet since the early 90s is some form or fashion. My experience is that it really hasn't changed much in terms of the pro-social behavior, the anti-social behavior and the strata between.

 

 

I think it depends where you look, if you use the RPGCodex forums as your benchmark then I agree we aren't seeing much progress around how people post and what they are prepared to say. But if you take sites like RPS they take the issue of sexism and the objectification of women in games very seriously. I would say it would be difficult to argue that in the last few years there hasn't generally been more of a raised awareness around issues of Internet anti-social behaviour and social justice.

[Amentep]

There is a difference between having a bit of fun with someone and doing it in a non-aggressive and good spirited way and trolling.  Yes, the line between good spirited fun and trolling can definitely get blurry, which is part of the reason I am quite happy I am not a moderator on an internet forum any longer and have no desire to be one again (since I've had to make that distinction and take appropriate action in the past).

There's also a difference between someone adopting a negative net persona to "act out" for their own amusement and having clinically diagnosable mental issues.

 

My worry about a study like this (besides the obvious that we have little about their methodology in the linked article) is that its "science as excuse"; it reads as an attempt to not understand trolling behavior and trolls so much so as to cow them with a stigma.

 

Its entirely ancedotal, of course, but there are probably at best a couple of people I've interacted with online in the last 20ish years who I harbored suspicions that they had deep set emotional/mental issues.

 

I think it depends where you look, if you use the RPGCodex forums as your benchmark then I agree we aren't seeing much progress around how people post and what they are prepared to say. But if you take sites like RPS they take the issue of sexism and the objectification of women in games very seriously. I would say it would be difficult to argue that in the last few years there hasn't generally been more of a raised awareness around issues of Internet anti-social behaviour and social justice.

RPG Codex and RPS are perfect examples of how it hasn't changed. There used to be unmoderated and moderated newsgroups on USENET for example that were what RPG Codex was and unmoderated and moderated newsgroups that were the same tone as RPS. The nature of what people want and expect from interactions online hasn't changed, just the venues and tools they use to enable such.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Amentep

[Orogun01]

Moderation has however become politicized on some places where a voice of dissent is disregarded as it just being some troublemaker, even if the wording is polite and makes an actual point.  

[BruceVC]

There is a difference between having a bit of fun with someone and doing it in a non-aggressive and good spirited way and trolling.  Yes, the line between good spirited fun and trolling can definitely get blurry, which is part of the reason I am quite happy I am not a moderator on an internet forum any longer and have no desire to be one again (since I've had to make that distinction and take appropriate action in the past).  As an example of good spirited fun, I have recently poked some fun at Bruce for his fascination with video game romances.  I tried to make it very clear that I am just having a bit of fun and am not being serious.  I hope Bruce sees it that way too.

 

And believe me, I've typed out posts before that I regretted typing.  The vast majority of the time I've stopped myself before clicking "post" when the realization "dude, you're being an idiot and an a-hole" comes over me, but sometimes that realization doesn't come soon enough.  At that point, the best course of action is to apologize as soon as possible.

 

I did know you were joking and it was no problem at all. I joke with people as well and I believe that if you are going to do that you must be prepared to take it. Also we sometimes engage in discussions that get heated and emotional as people take there views seriously. I think that is all part of what constitutes healthy and lively debate and is not Trolling by any means  

[Amentep]

Moderation has however become politicized on some places where a voice of dissent is disregarded as it just being some troublemaker, even if the wording is polite and makes an actual point.

Overmoderation will drive people away as much as undermoderation - whether its official mods or the community policing itself. Eventually those places where the moderation becomes a barrier to communication with whither and either stagnate or collapse entirely, IMO.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...so neutered discussion be the new norm, eh??...nice...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Hurlshort]

I would agree with Amentep that the number of people online I have met that I would consider as having serious mental issues is extremely small. Most of you guys are just run of the mill jerks

[Sargallath Abraxium]

 

I would agree with Amentep that the number of people online I have met that I would consider as having serious mental issues is extremely small. Most of you guys are just run of the mill jerks

...thanks, amigo...luv ya too...

 

 

...unless I's the other one...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Keyrock]

 

There is a difference between having a bit of fun with someone and doing it in a non-aggressive and good spirited way and trolling.  Yes, the line between good spirited fun and trolling can definitely get blurry, which is part of the reason I am quite happy I am not a moderator on an internet forum any longer and have no desire to be one again (since I've had to make that distinction and take appropriate action in the past).  As an example of good spirited fun, I have recently poked some fun at Bruce for his fascination with video game romances.  I tried to make it very clear that I am just having a bit of fun and am not being serious.  I hope Bruce sees it that way too.

 

And believe me, I've typed out posts before that I regretted typing.  The vast majority of the time I've stopped myself before clicking "post" when the realization "dude, you're being an idiot and an a-hole" comes over me, but sometimes that realization doesn't come soon enough.  At that point, the best course of action is to apologize as soon as possible.

 

I did know you were joking and it was no problem at all. I joke with people as well and I believe that if you are going to do that you must be prepared to take it. Also we sometimes engage in discussions that get heated and emotional as people take there views seriously. I think that is all part of what constitutes healthy and lively debate and is not Trolling by any means  

 

 

 

Moderation has however become politicized on some places where a voice of dissent is disregarded as it just being some troublemaker, even if the wording is polite and makes an actual point.  

 

 

 

Moderation has however become politicized on some places where a voice of dissent is disregarded as it just being some troublemaker, even if the wording is polite and makes an actual point.

Overmoderation will drive people away as much as undermoderation - whether its official mods or the community policing itself. Eventually those places where the moderation becomes a barrier to communication with whither and either stagnate or collapse entirely, IMO.

 

Agreed on all points.  Being a moderator is kind of a thankless task (*ePats moderators on back*  Thanks, mods!) and one where you need to make some judgement calls and walk a fine line.  A bit of fun, some playful poking the ribs, if you will, is part of a healthy forum community, as is spirited discussion on a variety of topics.  However things can escalate quickly and run off the rails even if those who originally began the debate had nothing but good intentions.  Taking a hard line and cracking down on every little thing can lead to a forum becoming a police state, which isn't any fun for anyone and can turn the forum into a ghost town quite easily.  At the same time, if you let the inmates run the asylum things can go out of control, which can turn your forum into a ghost town just as quickly.

 

*ePats self on back for using a bunch of idioms*

Edited February 17, 2014 by Keyrock

[Zoraptor]

Who are these mysterious people that think trolling is okay?  Besides the trolls themselves, obviously. 

A good troll is a thing of beauty. It speaks to the human condition, it illuminates the darkness and is an integral option in ecommunication. A good troll is satire, it is well thought out, it is intelligent. A bad troll is a pointless exercise in futility; lazy, facile and worthless. Of course, you can say the same thing about any style of post on the internet, they range from a potential "oh wow, Road to Damascus the scales fall from my eyes" to "please give me that 15 seconds of life and 20 IQ points back".

 

A good troll pokes the self righteous, self important and self serious streak everyone has, and commits the worst crime imaginable to those people- making them look silly. That isn't always possible to do with impeccable logic and Socratic method.

 

People need to be trolled, on the internet and in real life. Everyone needs their fundamental beliefs challenged at various points, if for no reason other than to affirm that you still believe them. And if your fundamental beliefs include the sorts of trivialities that people typically get trolled over then... well, a bit of self examination would not go amiss about whether Pikachu really could take Darth Vader in a fight is a truly important argument to have.

[Keyrock]

 

Who are these mysterious people that think trolling is okay?  Besides the trolls themselves, obviously. 

A good troll is a thing of beauty. It speaks to the human condition, it illuminates the darkness and is an integral option in ecommunication. A good troll is satire, it is well thought out, it is intelligent. A bad troll is a pointless exercise in futility; lazy, facile and worthless. Of course, you can say the same thing about any style of post on the internet, they range from a potential "oh wow, Road to Damascus the scales fall from my eyes" to "please give me that 15 seconds of life and 20 IQ points back".

 

A good troll pokes the self righteous, self important and self serious streak everyone has, and commits the worst crime imaginable to those people- making them look silly. That isn't always possible to do with impeccable logic and Socratic method.

 

People need to be trolled, on the internet and in real life. Everyone needs their fundamental beliefs challenged at various points, if for no reason other than to affirm that you still believe them. And if your fundamental beliefs include the sorts of trivialities that people typically get trolled over then... well, a bit of self examination would not go amiss about whether Pikachu really could take Darth Vader in a fight is a truly important argument to have.

 

The problem is that roughly 98% of trolls fall into what you defined as the bad troll category.

[Hiro Protagonist]

So you have no problem with the other 2%?

[Keyrock]

So you have no problem with the other 2%?

Not really. (Also, the 98% number is a figure I pulled out of my ass, figuratively speaking.  Suffice to say 'vast majority')  As Zor stated, they serve a purpose.

 

The problem is that of the "bad trolls", I would guess that almost every single one of them thinks they are a "good troll".  It takes sharp with and a good grasp of subtlety be a "good troll".  A lot of people think of themselves as being witty and subtle, very few actually are.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Keyrock

[rjshae]

 

So you have no problem with the other 2%?

Not really. (Also, the 98% number is a figure I pulled out of my ass, figuratively speaking.  Suffice to say 'vast majority')  As Zor stated, they serve a purpose.

 

The problem is that of the "bad trolls", I would guess that almost every single one of them thinks they are a "good troll".  It takes sharp with and a good grasp of subtlety be a "good troll".  A lot of people think of themselves as being witty and subtle, very few actually are.

 

I'm not even sure that what is being classified as a "good troll" is actually a troll. More like the Socratic method being applied by a closet prankster.

[Zoraptor]

The majority of bad trolls are just noise though, as is most of the internet. With the greatest of respect to people who post such things, some random person on the internet talking about potty training their toddler or going out to lunch or how that guy on Days of Our Lives is totally hot or whatever is not fundamentally more worthwhile than someone saying that Planescape Torment sux because it is a jRPG that is worse than KOTOR (and they're an authority because they played KOTOR 7 times) for the hundredth time. They're both things that you tend to read and forget, unless you have some sort of investment in them.

 

Yeah, there are really bad trolls who will do pretty despicable things, but then there are always 'bad' people who will do despicable things. Picketing a funeral because you think God is punishing America for its sin, and being serious about it, has exactly the same practical effect as doing the same thing 'for the lulz'.

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

I'm not even sure that what is being classified as a "good troll" is actually a troll. More like the Socratic method being applied by a closet prankster.

 

 

So you think there is never a good troll and if there is, it's called something else and not a troll? Is it so hard to accept that there could be good trolls (whether it's a person or post).

[rjshae]

 

 

I'm not even sure that what is being classified as a "good troll" is actually a troll. More like the Socratic method being applied by a closet prankster.

 

 

So you think there is never a good troll and if there is, it's called something else and not a troll? Is it so hard to accept that there could be good trolls (whether it's a person or post).

 

No, that is not what I said.

[Hiro Protagonist]

So do you accept that there are good troll posts?

[JFSOCC]

The study didn't follow the self-professed trolls behaviour outside their behaviour on the internet, making it a very flawed study. While this behaviour maybe considered "dark tetrad" it could be anything like an outlet for real life frustration, or selective bad behaviour. To remark on behaviour and attribute it to character on so little evidence is downright bad. I'd would be good if the study had followed the trolls (and everyone else who participated) for a while longer before coming with such bold claims.

 

Calling trolls psychopaths is just too easy, as tempting as that can be.

Edited February 17, 2014 by JFSOCC