Thoughts on damage types

[robfang]

 

Plate, and mail armors are worn all over the body. It is not like wearing a metal helmet and have metal shoes.

That's not true, armor is only the body part so you could wear non metal shoes/helmets etc. Also most armor will cover only 3/4 of the body.

 

Mail armor does cover your upper body including the head. Even if only the torso is covered with metal, it protects the heart and major internal organs from the passing current. Also you are missing the point: Metal armor does not make you vulnerable to electricity, instead it protects you. Of course, if you are not just wearing a skull-cap and metal boots.

Edited February 16, 2014 by robfang

[catspwnme]

Very interesting points here. 

 

All I know, is in full plate I would get struck by lighting in Buldar's Gate  

 

 

 

I'm curious if we will see "holy" damage. 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I like the basic damage types.

 

Elemental: Fire, Cold, Electrical, Acid

Physical: Slashing, Piercing, Crushing

Magical: Magic (That's it)

 

I don't care for holy, positive/negative, necrotic, etc. Magical damage is perfectly suitable for just about any extra-normal use. Spell, abilities, and effects which target or damage based on alignment/creature type should and tend to state the targeting parameters anyway, making the differentiation of these exotic damage types pointless. The only complicated damage type is Poison. D&D treats it as an ability reduction, but I don't like that. I feel poison damage is best represented as damage over time, particularly as massive damage over a brief interval.

[Sir Chaox]

I like the basic damage types.

 

Elemental: Fire, Cold, Electrical, Acid

Physical: Slashing, Piercing, Crushing

Magical: Magic (That's it)

 

Me too.

 

I actually thought magic would be more like a combination of those damage types, dependent on what the specific spell does.

 

So, for example. Flame arrow would do piercing damage (it's an arrow) and fire damage (it's on fire). The amount of damage might be variable to the casters level or other stats.

 

Or maybe magic is the raw damage type, if they don't want magic damage being mitigated the same way as physical damage.

[J.E. Sawyer]

It's true that a grounded suit of metal armor would protect you from electricity.  However, it's relatively easy to lose grounding and to still get shocked, especially if you're covered in sweat and hopping around a battlefield.  Even a fencing lamé and mask need a mask cord to ensure a constant connection.  It's extremely easy to lose contact between the neck of the mask and the lamé and break the circuit.  So while I don't dispute that in ideal circumstances a full suit of armor would protect you (possibly entirely) from electricity, combat is not ideal at all and would likely result in a lot of interruptions to grounding, IMO.

[Sir Chaox]

As a person with almost no knowledge of the subject at hand, I am become satisfied. 

[Tsuga C]

So while I don't dispute that in ideal circumstances a full suit of armor would protect you (possibly entirely) from electricity, combat is not ideal at all and would likely result in a lot of interruptions to grounding, IMO.

Simulationism strikes a blow against rainbows and unicorns! *mwhahahaha*

 

Yes, I enjoy being a pest at times. 

[Lephys]

Yes, I enjoy being a pest at times. 

Would you say you enjoy it even at the... "pest" of times?

 

[teknoman2]

just a little reminder to those who seem to missunderstand something about the game mecchanics: this is an RPG, not a fantasy combat simulator. just saying

[Lephys]

just a little reminder to those who seem to missunderstand something about the game mecchanics: this is an RPG, not a fantasy combat simulator. just saying

Granted. However, I'd temper that consideration with the fact that using reality as a basis for abstracted mechanics and simulating reality are not the same thing.

 

The throwing of reality out the window is not required to escape simulationism.

 

That being said, I do feel that "metal armor would always be a Faraday cage" is a bit overboard in opposing something such as "why would shock damage be boosted against metal armor?!", for the reasons that Josh pointed out. IF the game was intending to simulate everything down to the detail, then yes, it would check your armor's Faraday-Cage-ness before deciding about shock damage. However, since it's abstract, it's simply ignoring the possibility that your metal armor is maintaining that state, since that's not going to be the case most of the time anyway.

[teknoman2]

 

just a little reminder to those who seem to missunderstand something about the game mecchanics: this is an RPG, not a fantasy combat simulator. just saying

Granted. However, I'd temper that consideration with the fact that using reality as a basis for abstracted mechanics and simulating reality are not the same thing.

 

The throwing of reality out the window is not required to escape simulationism.

 

That being said, I do feel that "metal armor would always be a Faraday cage" is a bit overboard in opposing something such as "why would shock damage be boosted against metal armor?!", for the reasons that Josh pointed out. IF the game was intending to simulate everything down to the detail, then yes, it would check your armor's Faraday-Cage-ness before deciding about shock damage. However, since it's abstract, it's simply ignoring the possibility that your metal armor is maintaining that state, since that's not going to be the case most of the time anyway.

 

indeed. what i meant is that the game has some mechanics that are meant to strike a balance between reality and fantasy, providing a fun experience, without having you scratch your head in confusion (either because you dont get what the mechancs are, or they are overloaded with stats). it does not need to be overloaded with things like 1000 different damage types with the respective defenses, or things like your example  because it is not a simulation... or, as Josh said, 50 attributes because the character may have strong legs and not arms, so just strength doesnt cut it

Edited February 23, 2014 by teknoman2

[Giantevilhead]

A lot of things can be done through status effects rather than damage types. For example, a spell that conjures up a flood can cause crushing damage and leave a "soaked" status effect that makes the targets more vulnerable to shock. Poison and disease can cause reduction in stats, a chance to lose actions, and increased damage from other sources.

[NothingToSeeHere]

...a lot of interruptions to grounding, IMO.

 

While I'd normally argue that a lightning bolt which arcs through the air from mage to target should be able to bridge any interruptions to grounding in a suit of armour, I agree that it doesn't make sense to dissect this in an abstracted combat system. The idea of plate being "weak" to shock worries me though - is this still going to be included? What is the justification (or necessity) for that?

[Sabotin]

it's magic, does it really bother you that much? Metal is less resistive, allowing more energy to pass through into the body, thus increasing damage? Or maybe for the same reason the magic lightning naturally gravitates towards the target, making it easier to hit?

[NothingToSeeHere]

it's magic ... Metal is less resistive...

Which is it? Magic? Or Physics? If it's just an arbitrary "plate is weaker to shock magic just because it's magic" (like Runescape, but only for shock and nothing else?) then sure, it shouldn't bother anyone.

If it's physics then there's a problem there. The lightning is going to go through your armour, through you and into the ground no matter what - and if you're wearing plate then there will always be metallic bits of armour in parallel with parts of your body, reducing the amount of electricity flowing through those parts of your body. Even if we drop all those details due to abstraction, I don't see a physical reason why it should suddenly make you more susceptible to shock damage.

[robfang]

It's true that a grounded suit of metal armor would protect you from electricity.  However, it's relatively easy to lose grounding and to still get shocked, especially if you're covered in sweat and hopping around a battlefield.  Even a fencing lamé and mask need a mask cord to ensure a constant connection.  It's extremely easy to lose contact between the neck of the mask and the lamé and break the circuit.  So while I don't dispute that in ideal circumstances a full suit of armor would protect you (possibly entirely) from electricity, combat is not ideal at all and would likely result in a lot of interruptions to grounding, IMO.

A suit of armor does not need to be "grounding" in order to protect your organs from the electricity. Just like NothingToSeeHere and I have pointed out, metal armor that covers any part of your body protects that part from the passing current. Ideal is not a necessity here. Current passing through your heart is not the same as current passing through your bare kneecap. Being able to cover your heart is still quite important. The exceptions to this protection are like wearing the combination of a metal skull cap and metal boots because they make you less resistant to the current when compared to your environment without providing any major protection. So, the argument "metal armor makes you weak" is almost totally wrong.

[Sabotin]

 

it's magic ... Metal is less resistive...

Which is it? Magic? Or Physics? If it's just an arbitrary "plate is weaker to shock magic just because it's magic" (like Runescape, but only for shock and nothing else?) then sure, it shouldn't bother anyone.

If it's physics then there's a problem there. The lightning is going to go through your armour, through you and into the ground no matter what - and if you're wearing plate then there will always be metallic bits of armour in parallel with parts of your body, reducing the amount of electricity flowing through those parts of your body. Even if we drop all those details due to abstraction, I don't see a physical reason why it should suddenly make you more susceptible to shock damage.

 

 

Indeed I believe this is coming purely from the gameplay side of things. As far as I know, there isn't any special elemental resistances and DT from armor is applied to everything (not always full amount). So this looks like an attempt to make physical and magical effects interact more (since they use the same mechanic). I would also like to know more about other similar effects. It would seem weird if this was the only one.

[teknoman2]

i dont remember what game it was, but in it leather armors offered a flat resistance to fire and metal armors gave some lightning resistance, independetly from other stats

[Lord Gorchnik]

i dont remember what game it was, but in it leather armors offered a flat resistance to fire and metal armors gave some lightning resistance, independetly from other stats

 

Indeed.  A very old MMO had elemental resistances based on armor type.  Those wearing cloth got devastated by fire attacks.  Made for a slightly interesting system, but ultimately abused becuase everyone knew what your primary weakness was.

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

Indeed I believe this is coming purely from the gameplay side of things. As far as I know, there isn't any special elemental resistances and DT from armor is applied to everything (not always full amount). So this looks like an attempt to make physical and magical effects interact more (since they use the same mechanic). I would also like to know more about other similar effects. It would seem weird if this was the only one.

 

All base armor types have different strengths and weakness against different damage types, mostly physical, but some elemental as well.  The majority of damage types are 1:1 with the base DT.  It's not at all unique to plate armor.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Which is it? Magic? Or Physics? If it's just an arbitrary "plate is weaker to shock magic just because it's magic" (like Runescape, but only for shock and nothing else?) then sure, it shouldn't bother anyone.

If it's physics then there's a problem there. The lightning is going to go through your armour, through you and into the ground no matter what - and if you're wearing plate then there will always be metallic bits of armour in parallel with parts of your body, reducing the amount of electricity flowing through those parts of your body. Even if we drop all those details due to abstraction, I don't see a physical reason why it should suddenly make you more susceptible to shock damage.

 

PoE's plate's stats don't make you more susceptible to shock damage (no armor makes you more susceptible to any damage type).  Plate armor has a modifier that reduces base DT when Shock (electrical) damage is involved.  The armor is still absolutely protecting you from damage, but a lesser amount than it does against Slash, Pierce, Crush, Freeze, etc.

 

These are temporary values, but let's say plate armor has a base DT of 16.  Its Shock modifier is -50%.  Against Shock, the DT is 8.  If you later find a suit of Cool Guy Plate Armor with a DT of 20, the Shock DT would be 10.  These values are still much higher, even modified, than the base DTs that light armors provide.  Shock is just the damage type it doesn't protect against as well.

 

Would it be more accurate to give Shock-based attacks an Accuracy bonus against plate armor or to covert some percentage of Misses to Grazes or Grazes to Hits but leave the base DT alone -- i.e., it's more likely to hit you in the first place, but no more likely to damage you?  Sure, I could see that, but I think giving different modifiers to the base armor types mechanically comes close to achieving the same outcome.

[NothingToSeeHere]

Would it be more accurate to give Shock-based attacks an Accuracy bonus...

 

Well technically the accuracy bonus should only apply when the suit of armour is perfectly grounded (a non grounded piece of metal is just as likely to be hit as an insulator)

 

But it's good to know that the DT reduction won't make plate weaker than other armours to shock. I guess that works as some sort of a compromise...

[Lephys]

But it's good to know that the DT reduction won't make plate weaker than other armours to shock. I guess that works as some sort of a compromise...

Well, it's quite likely that the mechanics will make plate weaker than other armors to shock. I mean, relatively. But, what it won't do is take you from getting hit by lightning for 20 dmg, naked, to getting hit by the exact same lightning for more than 20 dmg simply because you donned some plate. However, since plate's DT is halved versus Shock, then if there's some other armor that has, say, a DT greater than half a set of plate's DT, and 100% DT versus Shock damage.

 

In other words, if Enchanted Elven Leather has a DT of 12, and has no Shock penalty, and steel plate armor has a DT of 20 but has a 50% Shock penalty, then the plate's going to be weaker vs. Shock than the Enchanted Elven Leather (12 Shock dmg blocked versus only 10 in the plate).

 

And yeah. Like Josh said, it's unlikely you'll remain perfectly grounded the whole time in combat (what with armor being beaten and bent, and your whole body moving around a great deal), so it'd be a nightmare trying to program a system that actually accurately checked whether or not you were grounded in your full plate before determining the impact of Shock damage.

[AGX-17]

 

4- what would poison damage, hunger damage, curse, or magic damage go under?

 

Poison sounds like corrode. Curse could be determined on what type of curse it is. From Wikipedia, The word 'corrosion' is derived from the Latin verb corrodere, which means 'to gnaw', indicating how these substances seem to 'gnaw' their way through the flesh. Doubt if our characters will get hungry.

 

Be good to get a confirmation on these.

 

Corrosion and poison are two significantly different things (in reality, at least.) Poison ain't acid and acid ain't poison. Acid is a matter of electromagnetic attraction between free protons and anything that has an electron, poison is typically a molecule that's similar in structure to one vital for life, but isn't that molecule and, thus, does not perform its function and just sits there gumming up the works in a cell. Arsenic is a prime example: its compounds are similar to phosphates which are the 'P' part of Adenosine Triphosphate (and to a much lesser degree, Diphosphate,) which is how all living things power their activity. Shove an arsenic in there and suddenly you've got organelles trying to derive energy from something which won't give it up.

Edited March 4, 2014 by AGX-17

[Gfted1]

Why is only plate subject to a Shock modifier? What about other metal armors such as chain and scale?