Infinitron Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/76165227151/do-you-think-it-is-important-for-attributes-to-allow silkvalley asked: Do you think it is important for attributes to allow certain archetypes? For example, a clumsy and physically weak wizard, yet she deals tons of damage with her spells. The priest who's outstandingly accurate with his spells, but is not a master in sleight of hand and pickpocketing (Dexterity). Similarly, should increasing the damage he deals with spells (via attribute) also increase the number of items he can carry? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 At first I thought it was a draught, but in hindsight it was probably Sesame. Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milczyciel Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Wow, how the hell did I miss all that (tumblr, yt channel)? Thanks Infinitron! "There are no good reasons. Only legal ones." - Ross Scott It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrich Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I was trying to articulate similar points when this debate was raging on the Attribute Theory thread, but I did so much more poorly. I agree with his outlook here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSOCC Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Is that a production beard? also, it seems he released a bunch of videos. let's go through them. Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Is that a production beard? also, it seems he released a bunch of videos. let's go through them. Listening to all of us go on about PoE is steadily turning his hair grey... 4 "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm absolutely fine with Josh's attribute division for PE. I've said it before: To me, this gives me a definite Aang: The Last Airbender-vibe in so far as how magic is affected by strength, dexterity and wisdom in that TV-series. And I actually adore that setting and how magic takes on a slightly different gestalt than in typical western RPGs. This is going to be so much fun. PE couldn't come soon enough! 1 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Chaox Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I like the system in place now; it sounds like it will be interesting and have good balance. But just a thought. Couldn't we utilize starter traits like Fallout, Arcanum, Avernum, etc. where you can gain some special positive/negative passive stat effect that works for/against another particular stat effect provided by the default attribute system? So you could get that fighter that has high strength but crummy immune system (low Fort. saves, I'm guessing). Now, I don't mind gimping a character to make the game interesting, but for those who want balance, there would have to be some tradeoff there. Maybe the reason why they didn't do this was to keep focus entirely on balancing all of the attributes and having the player wholly focus on utilizing this system to produce interesting characters. But just throwing it out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greensleeve Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I like the system in place now; it sounds like it will be interesting and have good balance. But just a thought. Couldn't we utilize starter traits like Fallout, Arcanum, Avernum, etc. where you can gain some special positive/negative passive stat effect that works for/against another particular stat effect provided by the default attribute system? So you could get that fighter that has high strength but crummy immune system (low Fort. saves, I'm guessing). Now, I don't mind gimping a character to make the game interesting, but for those who want balance, there would have to be some tradeoff there. Maybe the reason why they didn't do this was to keep focus entirely on balancing all of the attributes and having the player wholly focus on utilizing this system to produce interesting characters. But just throwing it out there. I would love to see starter traits like those in Fallout or Arcanum. Highly approve of that idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonek Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I can understand where the gentleman is coming from, it's reasonable and I look forward to trying out the system. Personally I was looking forward to playing a physically deficient Wizard who was powerful in the arcane arts, but if that's not available then i'll have to redesign my character. I wouldn't be averse to doing as Sir Chaox suggests and using a starting trait to mitigate the effect that Strength has on spells, as this archetype would already be punished with poor combat skills and frailty, it seems a little excessive to also lessen his spell strength. 1 Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milczyciel Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Listening to all of us go on about PoE is steadily turning his hair grey... Sir, are you suggesting we should complain more, so it would get even better? Because that's an awesome shade... of... <ok, I don't like where I'm going here> ... G-damn, all I wanted to say is that it looks great and I envy him. Look what you've done! "There are no good reasons. Only legal ones." - Ross Scott It's not that I'm lazy. I just don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamerlane Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I can understand where the gentleman is coming from, it's reasonable and I look forward to trying out the system. Personally I was looking forward to playing a physically deficient Wizard who was powerful in the arcane arts, but if that's not available then i'll have to redesign my character. I wouldn't be averse to doing as Sir Chaox suggests and using a starting trait to mitigate the effect that Strength has on spells, as this archetype would already be punished with poor combat skills and frailty, it seems a little excessive to also lessen his spell strength. Well, you can still play a physically deficient wizard who is powerful in the arcane arts. Its just that the physically deficient wizard will be biased towards long-lasting spells with big AOEs that interrupt enemy attacks instead of straight damage. As opposed to in Baldur's Gate where spell damage was affected by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The other option, in terms of compensating for low stats, might be the equivilant of the "weapon finesse" feat from 3.5. Obviously it would require some balancing issues rather than being transplanted like-for-like, but it was a reasonable solution then and I can't immediately see why it shouldn't be now. Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lephys Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I've said it before: To me, this gives me a definite Aang: The Last Airbender-vibe in so far as how magic is affected by strength, dexterity and wisdom in that TV-series. Yeah, but, to be fair, it was more "endurance" than raw strength. I mean, Toph was a complete BAMF, even though she was what... 10? And she fought fully-adult Conan The Barbarian dudes who were about 18-times her size and had obviously trained their muscles to a much greater magnitude. Yeah, old Fire-Nation General, Uncle What's-His-Face was super-out-of-shape, and his Firebending capabilities suffered for it. But, he wasn't a wuss. Plus, their bending basically had a rigorous somatic component to it. Thus, being out of shape, or even just really tired, would affect it much like losing your voice would affect a spell that requires a verbal incantation. You have to be capable of performing that incantation to get the spell to work properly. That doesn't mean that the louder your voice is, the more powerful the spell is. Same with Strength versus Bending. That being said, I understand the abstraction of something like Might applying to magic/representing non-physical potency. I just think that, ideally, both things would be distinctly represented. I also realize that other factors are closer to ideal with both of them (physical and non-physical power) represented by a single stat, as opposed to being separated. So, it's not just a matter of "well obviously, separate them." Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Winter Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Yeah, but, to be fair, it was more "endurance" than raw strength. I mean, Toph was a complete BAMF, even though she was what... 10? And she fought fully-adult Conan The Barbarian dudes who were about 18-times her size and had obviously trained their muscles to a much greater magnitude. I got the impression it was more like 'internal-strength' that you get from something like Tai-Chi (NB: it refers to the use of the stabilizing muscles for movement (as opposed to vice-versa - I mean you still use the motivational muscles but just for quick burst of movement)- these muscles are smaller but stronger (pound for pound) than the motivational muscles - so you can look slighter of build but hit like a brick). Combined with the need for precision and coordination of movement. So yeah, somatic components, dexterity+strength as mentioned. (not sure I was adding anything there - I just like Airbender too - if only they'd done a better job with the movie) (side note: why do I keep trying to spell 'somatic' as 'somantic'? ) Edited February 11, 2014 by Silent Winter _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ffordesoon Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, you can still play a physically deficient wizard who is powerful in the arcane arts. Its just that the physically deficient wizard will be biased towards long-lasting spells with big AOEs that interrupt enemy attacks instead of straight damage. As opposed to in Baldur's Gate where spell damage was affected by BY WHAT I MUST KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Chaox Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, you can still play a physically deficient wizard who is powerful in the arcane arts. Its just that the physically deficient wizard will be biased towards long-lasting spells with big AOEs that interrupt enemy attacks instead of straight damage. As opposed to in Baldur's Gate where spell damage was affected by BY WHAT I MUST KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW OMG, cliffhanger posts are the WORST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) I got the impression that Tamerlane was suggesting nothing. eg. Baldur's Gate spell damage was affected by... nothing. Which is correct when referring to your attributes. However, some spells like Magic Missile did increase in damage as you level up but it had nothing to do with any attributes. So you could have a Mage with a Might (Str) & Int of 18 and a second Mage with Might (Str) / Int of 9 and both would put out the same damage. Edited February 11, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ffordesoon Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Ah. Well. This is why I can never solve those word puzzles in the newspaper where it says, like, "score" with a line drawn below it. Some people go, "Underscore, obviously!" and roll their eyes. I'm the type of person who stares at it for an hour and then looks at the answer. Which is also at least twenty percent of the reason why I think puzzles in adventure games are usually aggravating distractions that only serve to artificially lengthen the playtime, and that the genre could get along fine without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Does anyone know what exactly Might refers to? I know it increases damage and healing, but is it just meant to refer to the character's muscle mass, strength of soul or more abstract "the mightiness of your character" thing? Are we gonna get eye scanner things that can read the Might level of a character and lead to "It's over NINE THOUSAND!!!!" quotes? Enquiring mind must know!!! "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Abstract. 2 Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Abstract. That's cool with me as it still means I could make a high damage dealing mage type without making them musclebound, but I do hope they still define your character in some way especially in dialog. "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Presumably, when your high strength mage tries to intimidate someone, sparks fly from his armpits rather than his muscles flexing. Or something. 2 Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Presumably, when your high strength mage tries to intimidate someone, sparks fly from his armpits rather than his muscles flexing. Or something. That can actually work. Not necessarily with the armpits bit, but kinda like Gandalf's "Do not mistake me for a conjurer of cheap tricks!" bit. 3 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 "BILBO BAGGINS! DO NOT TAKE ME FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS!" *Sparks fly from armpits* 7 Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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