Quest system

[600lbpanther]

I like what everyone is saying about making communication carry more weight in the game world.

 

During Elder Scrolls Online Beta testing I am not sure I fully read one quest nor cared (and most of the time didn't know) who I was ultimately benefiting in completing said quest.  However, I did know where to go due to magically appearing map markers.  I wish I cared about the questing system (another conversation) but thankfully the map automatically marked where I needed to go or I wouldn't have had the foggiest.

 

I believe if the quests are engaging then the player will care to read and find out where to go.  I want that also but, hell, if I had a tough day at work, drank a bottle of wine, or just can't think straight *I* might want a map marker at that point in time.  I am not sure why a toggle to turn map markers off / on is such a big (or bad) deal.  Also, having a journal that auto-updates the necessary gist of info you need while offering a basic text editor (that saves user inputted notes pertinent to that quest) would speak to a vast majority of gamer's playing style.

[khalil]

I wouldn't be opposed if that's an option, though personally I'd take it a step higher than that.

 

i.e. I get the BG entries "Talked to Captain Stupidface, he told me about Gale, the former captain of the guard who went crazy and killed his family.  Asked me to bring Gale to justice"

 

Asking around town, I find out that Gale ran off to the southeast (this doesn't go in the journal). However, I (as the player) can add it.

I actually hated that, because if I got up to do something else, when I came back I could never remember what I was doing.

Also, it wastes my time. I have to go and type something in for every damn quest like that, and it's no more immersive than it just being automaticly added to the log.

[Sir Chaox]

 

I wouldn't be opposed if that's an option, though personally I'd take it a step higher than that.

 

i.e. I get the BG entries "Talked to Captain Stupidface, he told me about Gale, the former captain of the guard who went crazy and killed his family.  Asked me to bring Gale to justice"

 

Asking around town, I find out that Gale ran off to the southeast (this doesn't go in the journal). However, I (as the player) can add it.

I actually hated that, because if I got up to do something else, when I came back I could never remember what I was doing.

Also, it wastes my time. I have to go and type something in for every damn quest like that, and it's no more immersive than it just being automaticly added to the log.

 

 

I agree that it does not inherently add to immersion. Rather, it can force immersion upon the player.

 

First, it offers a new element of gameplay, requiring you to be attentive to details and make notes if you require (which can be fun for some). Paying attention to plot details can improve immersion as we have to understand even small quest lines to a particular level of detail in order to successfully complete them. But having an automatic log can potentially still offer the same level of detail if you wish to read and understand what was written; you just aren't going hands on with it. This is assuming the automatic log entries are detailed and not simple one-line objectives.

[kappaomicron]

I don't see any issue with implementing the player-written quest journal; it would definitely aid in the immersion for the hardcore role-players. But I'm not too bothered by it being in or out of the game myself, since personally I'll just use the default in-game journal they provide. I say if it's easy enough and the developers have enough free time on their hands to add in this feature; go right ahead. But if it would conflict with major development of the game, then I would rather they just focus on the stuff they're currently doing so they don't go over their budget and miss set milestones for development of the game.

[Ffordesoon]

I almost never use player-written journals, but I absolutely support their inclusion. It's one of those cases where I don't think the game should be designed around it, but I do think that players who like that sort of thing should always be allowed to have it.

 

One thing I like about BG:EE is that it allows you to copy certain documents into your player-written journal, thereby allowing you to to drop those documents and move on. I wish they had let you do it with lore books and the like, though I understand why they don't. Still, it's a lovely little workaround. Given the stash system, I don't know if it's strictly necessary, but it might be a nice feature to allow in PoE for people who might not want to scroll forever to get to any lore books they might have picked up, or whatever.

 

I also liked the way Dragon Age did it, of course, but there's something ineffably cool about books being interactive objects that a lore repository just can't replicate.

[insidious89]

Don't worry guys, us beta testers will make sure no quest is too annoying to finish! :D

[Wizaerd]

Don't worry guys, us beta testers will make sure no quest is too annoying to finish! :D

 

Define too annoying... What may or may not be too annoying to you may or may not be too annoying to others...

 

I want to play an immersive game, and enjoy myself.  I don't want to have to "work" in order to enjoy the game.  I don't want to keep my own log on pen & paper, I don't want to have to draw my own maps, I don't want to have to remember each and every little thing that is said or done.

 

 

I like quest markers. I also like being explicitly told how to get somewhere. My gaming time is too short and too precious to waste large chunks of it wandering around, increasingly frustrated with not getting to the good parts. (Yeah, I'm a fairly story/character development/dialogue-oriented player.)

 

So, unless there is a specific feature to ask generic NPCs for directions, I'd prefer if they'd at least have a BG2-style map, with the important locations pre-labelled.

 

 

I am completely on board with the way this person thinks...

[Sir Chaox]

I like quest markers. I also like being explicitly told how to get somewhere. My gaming time is too short and too precious to waste large chunks of it wandering around, increasingly frustrated with not getting to the good parts. (Yeah, I'm a fairly story/character development/dialogue-oriented player.)

 

So, unless there is a specific feature to ask generic NPCs for directions, I'd prefer if they'd at least have a BG2-style map, with the important locations pre-labelled.

 

 

I am completely on board with the way this person thinks...

 

I consider myself story/character/dialogue-oriented as well, but I dislike the use of quest markers. I want the quests in the game to require an understanding of what NPCs are asking of you, rather than a simple checklist in your quest log of what to do and where to go and a helpful arrow to show you exactly where you need to go. It's also immersion breaking, which can ruin atmosphere for the story. I understand being focused on only the actual plot and characters and dialogue, but a large part of it all is how it is delivered, the storytelling aspect, which can be ruined by excessive hand-holding by the developers.

 

Personally, I think it would be interesting if not all important locations were pre-labelled immediately but perhaps you need to discover its importance before it will be. Some places like towns/cities should be pre-labelled, as that would make sense (they are commonly known locations), but unknown areas should be a question mark, especially if this game is trying to emphasize exploration as a major part of gameplay.

[Hassat Hunter]

The worst is if "hidden" locations of "find x" or hell, even the order of a puzzle(!) are simply questmarked. What kind of search is one that the answer is provided for you?

 

Questmarkers have done some terrible things in RPG's... and many games who allow turning them off still are build around them, so you get no critical information to a location except that icon. 'Go there, I marked it on your map'... :/

[Pipyui]

I can understand that some would prefer to have a quest-marker toggle option, sometimes after a long day or on "down" hours you just want to power through the experience of a video game.  I can understand it, however I can't say that I condone the idea; I don't think that it fits the PoE vision ("IE feels"), even as an option.  Sometimes I just want to power through a gaming session too, but pin-point quest markers exist solely to let me turn off my brain and autopilot through story.  Maybe sometimes that's what I want, but I don't feel that the game should cater to this at expense of its own vision.  Of course, this is worse for some situations than others - I suppose I wouldn't mind much for quest-markers that point me to explicit and known locations (the blacksmith in Townharbor, perhaps), but situations such as Hassat addresses above me would go straight past infuriating and into the realm of numbing dissapointment.

 

That being said, since PoE isn't going to have quest markers (unless the devs pulled a 180 on this), I'd be pleased to see location information or directions appear automatically in my journal.  I have to presume that if I'm told to meet Cascades, whose home may be found in Balmora on whatever side of the river, that I'd posses the foresight to write this info down rather than look back at my journal and say "To Cascades!  Who the **** is Cascades?"

So long as I have a reasonably concise description of somebody/thing's whereabouts recorded, I should be okay to find the bloke/whatever myself when I need to.

 

 

Not perfectly relevant to the topic at hand, but since I'm here I would also address the other end of this spectrum - Deus Ex: Human Revolution.  A game with (perceivably) great depth, but that I couldn't get far into due to lack of a real journal (that I could find).  From one weekend to the next I would have no idea what it was I was supposed to be doing, would just follow one marker to the next, hoping to be reminded once I arrived at my destinations.  I see the "vision" here, but quest-markers without the benefit of a quest journal is completely unacceptable.  Magic GPS or no, I certainly hope PoE doesn't follow this example.

 

Edit: I hope never to have to use the word "vision" again.  So abstract.  So inconcise.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Pipyui

[Suburban-Fox]

What do I think of it? I couldn't possibly be happier about this design choice!!

 

I never liked the quest marker system, ever since they introduced it in Oblivion. I wouldn't have minded so much if there was a way to turn it off and use an alternative method, but usually, there isn't. So I'm very happy that they're not doing that.   

[Co0n]

So I think we can agree, that there is no "one solution for all of us", and thats why the game needs to allow the different options people talked about here.

 

The Player comming home late night and just wanting to kill some Dragons may not want to read books or ask around or even take notes himself.
For this kind of player some convenient questmarkers are essential.
For other players it kills the experience and prevents them from finding stuff out themselves.

 

If PoE offers the questmarker solution + the Journal solution + enough ingame information to get to the goal without those, I think we have the perfect base.
Then Add the option to turn off Questmarkers and toggle journal infos (Full/Medium/Off) then there is the right experience for all of us.

[Hassat Hunter]

The Player comming home late night and just wanting to kill some Dragons may not want to read books or ask around or even take notes himself.

For this kind of player some convenient questmarkers are essential.

Actually, for that kind of player other games exist... and he has nothing to look for in PoE.

 

There's no need to cather to each gamer, especially if that cheapens the very core of the game in doing so...

[JFSOCC]

that's my thought. If you come home late and want to do something cathartic, play another game, and go back to PoE later.

[Lephys]

^ Thirded.

 

To clarify, there's room for flexibility. Some people want to gather all the info they can in any scenario within an RPG, and some people prefer to play more run-and-gun characters, etc.

 

However, if getting home from a hard day has you thinking "Man... I kinda want to play Diablo," then you shouldn't really mentally demand that you get to play PoE in the style of Diablo. You should probably just go play Diablo.

 

I say that because a lot of times, the perfectly feasible "the game doesn't really need to cater to people who want something beyond the scope of the game, and there are other games for that" messages gets falsely interpreted as "If you don't like the way WE like to play PoE, then EFF YOU! GO PLAY (insert game name here that's supposed to imply you're simple-minded and can't do anything but push buttons and watch explosions happen)!"

 

But, that's not the case. If you just feel like killing some dragons, then it's not PoE's job to just have a bunch of dragons lying around that you can just go fight, no quest-ions asked (pun completely intended), just so that your potential desire to merely fight and slay some dragons can be appeased.

 

It doesn't make you some kind of simpleton or anything, but... as a gamer and a human, you're going to be in the mood for gameplay with some rather specific criteria at times, and it's not the obligation of one game to make sure all of those potential urges are always met no matter what you want to do.

 

Specifically on the topic of quest-system handling in PoE, I'm all for the option between having explicit instructions/goals shown in a quest listing (stuff that it's understandable your party interpreted from the information available to them) and having to just read through stuff to kind of "figure out" (not that it's necessarily complex) what you're specifically "supposed to do" (or what the situation is, in a nutshell). However, there's no reason to go beyond that at all. There's no reason for a quest system to solve problems for you, and/or for the game to support laziness or something.

 

Or, to put it another way, if you're too tired to go for a jog at the end of the day, then just don't go for a jog. It doesn't mean you're a pathetic lazy person. But, why would you put on athletic attire and attach things to the bottoms of your feet that simulate the impact of jogging, without actually getting any exercise in? You wouldn't. So why would you want an RPG to have a "skip aspects of this game that make this game what it is" toggle, for when you kinda want to play the game but don't really want to have to deal with the game? You wouldn't.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

So it’s okay for them to not like it, but we’re not really making it for people that don’t. It’s like a suite of things we think our players are going to enjoy.

 

 

This is most excellent.

[Amberion]

lol @ World of Warcraft for instituting the tyranny of quest markers

 

I am relieved to have a return to the "ye olde" way of doing things.

 

What I am wary of:

- What would happen if you <accidentally> complete a quest, before officially receiving the quest?

   Or will the initiation of a quest via the primary interaction spawn the rest of the quest actors?

 

1) Having characters on site prior to quest spawn leads to a more populated and "realistic" world

2) Spawning in relevant actors following quest initialisation leads to a structured quest resolution by precluding some of the scripting difficulties and premature quest failure

For the record, WoW didn't introduce it - it was a fan-made mod that first created the quest objective tracker and Blizzard adopted the feature, because so many people were using it.

[khalil]

Yes, but who doesn't like whining about how WoW/VTM/COD/KOTOR2/D3 ruined fun forever.

[Ffordesoon]

Yes, but who doesn't like whining about how WoW/VTM/COD/KOTOR2/D3 ruined fun forever.

You forgot Fallout 3. If only the people who hate it would.

[AGX-17]

So, in summation: You felt ashamed while playing Skyrim. The end. Fin. Finito. Full stop. Halt. Beenden. 停止