UK Muslims targeted for speaking out about terror

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This makes the romance threads look good.

[Lexx]

You could try a language that is most spoken in your area beside english.

 

In my opinion, everyone should try to learn at least a second language, doesn't matter if you are never going to visit that country. It can be simply for education or for lolz- best of course if there are people in your local area who speak that language.

 

Me personally, I would also love to get better in spanish, even though there is like nobody speaking spanish in germany.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

The definition I would pick involves the refusal to assimilate

 

But you just picked the one that you happened to like.  We can go in circles here.  I think that your interpretation is used as a means to undermine the efforts specifically to ensure cultural hegemony because when you're on top, it's easy to have the perception that relatively speaking, the only direction we have is down.

 

So? You can pick whichever you like, so long as we're clear on which one, else we're speaking past each other. As far as cultural hegemony, what's wrong with trying to preserve your own culture in your own country? I'm not advocating going to other countries and imposing our culture on them.

 

 

Because that's exactly what advocates of multiculturalism want. For example they want Sharia to apply to Muslims in America, not American law.

Nonsense.

 

It can't be nonsense if it's true.

Or when Canadian RCMP states that a Sikh must remove his turban to be an RCMP officer, because their cap is an essential part of the uniform.  So basically "If you identify as a Sikh, and identify strongly as being a Canadian, well you're screwed the RCMP isn't for you.  Because I'm sure that there'd be no intrinsic advantages to having a Sikh member of the service either!

Because they want that individual to represent RCMP, not Sikhs. If he can't do that, he doesn't belong in RCMP, or at least they can make that determination. US army doesn't allow beards either. Anyone could claim their religion requires whatever. If a job conflicts with your religion, don't take the job.

[ShadySands]

Isn't Mandarin the language spoken by the most people?

 

Let's all just learn that, problem solved

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm sure we will sometime this century, whether we like it or not.

[Hurlshort]

If we are just talking about preserving our own culture within the US, I don't see what the problem is.  I'm incredibly proud to be an American and I travel the country every summer sharing as much of this country as I can with my kids.  It does not make me insecure that there are other cultures around.

[BruceVC]

Isn't Mandarin the language spoken by the most people?

 

Let's all just learn that, problem solved

 

The 3 most commonly spoken languages in the world are English, Mandarin and Spanish

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

For starters it's being fluent in English. Beyond that, i don;t care what it is.

 

To be fair, in God's country, English isn't the official language. We have no official language, unofficially it's English, but it's still unofficial. In fact two states have another language besides English which is part of the State's heritage or something. New Mexico and Louisiana. Take a guess at what the other language for those two states are. 

 

It's too late to try make it a official it at a Federal level as well. 

 

 

Bull****. The least a person can do when immigrating here is learn the predominant language. That's English. Any other country expects the same.

 

 

I do think if person makes a decision to immigrate to another country they need to learn the local language

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well the glass is half full for you. My mother is an ESL teacher, and she can't say enough about how immigrants don't give a rat's ass about integrating, speaking English or embracing American culture. It's grab as grab can. If you think multiculturalism works, you are deluded. It has never fully worked, especially in modern times. Angela Merkel said it best: multiculturalism has utterly failed.

 

 

 

My great grandmother was full blooded Italian.  My wife's dad is full blooded Mexican.  My wife has two grandparents that were full blooded French.  

 

My children dance ballet folklorico.  They attend Eid celebrations at local mosques.  We hang out with a family that runs a Japanese Grocery Store, and we go to Portuguese Crab Feeds with another.  Our babysitter has us over for dinners regularly, her mom only speaks Spanish and she makes the best salsa I have ever tasted anywhere.  My kids understand her perfectly.

 

Multiculturalism makes my world a beautiful place, if you don't think it works, I feel extremely sorry for you.  

 

 

 

Also German Chancellors don't have the best track record when it comes to multiculturalism, I'd hesitate to use that as your tagline.     

 

 

 

Shariah is a silly talking point for shock jocks trying to drive their ratings up.  It preys on the ignorance of the average American about Islam.  We have a separation of church and state, that isn't going to change because we have Muslims in the country.   

 

Excellent points, you have summarized my view on this topic

[HoonDing]

Do we really need to go over the history of New York, San Francisco, etc.?

Didn't horrible things happen to the Chinese in San Francisco in the 19th century?

[Oerwinde]

What has stared happenig in Vancouver, I can't speak for elsewhere, is that with the rate of immigration, there are larger and larger immigrant communities that are insular, and its becoming easier and easier for immigrants to get by without integrating. Businesses start seeing that there are large communities that only speak tagalog or mandarin, or punjab, so they start offering services in those languages in order to attract the business, further hindering integration. This causes a lot of issues with police, because largely the police only speak english.

 

Its one thing to have an intermixing of cultures, but its just become so easy not to intermix.

[Walsingham]

I'd like to throw in three additional points:

 

1) IMO poor people tend to object to multi-culturalism. But I don't think they do it because they're bigots. They do it because cultural identity and standards are so much more important to them. A Middle class Londoner is a middle class Londoner, irrespective. They get what they need with cash and understanding the official levers. A poor Londoner depends on his or her community to get what they need. They need to have one rule for what's acceptable. If culture gets 'noisy' it becomes correspondingly harder to get what they need.

 

2) Extending the above, we're all pretty relaxed about multi-culturalism in, say, food or art. But we get awfully antsy when it extends to - to take UK examples - the exorcism of children, or domestic servitude for minors.

 

3) Culture is inevitably non-static, if only due to changing societal roles caused by technology.

[Elerond]

There is two major ways how multicultural environments are build.

 

first is segregated way, where different cultures live in same area, but they try keep themselves segregated from other cultures and live as other cultures don't exist, which usually causes conformations between different culture groups and usually this also cause different groups to create their own set of rules how people should live.

 

second is blending way, where people from different culture backgrounds live together and they start to take things from others cultures as part of their culture, this way usually cause much less conformations and people usually live with one set of rules. This is usually the way that pro multicultural people want as it helps society to advance, where segregation usually causes rise of protectionism, where different cultures try protect their ways from influences from other cultures.

 

Usually multiculturalism show in both ways in every country, and areas that live by first way are usually those areas that cause most of typical problems that are associated with multiculturalism (own set of rules, no mutual language, protectionism, etc.). 

 

Many people that say that multiculturalism is bad still enjoy many benefits of multiculturalism like different foods, new stories, increased knowledge, etc., because they associate most of those things to be part of their own culture because of cultural blending. 

[Walsingham]

Stumbled across this. Regarding the 'news' about Bin Laden's porn stash.

 

Two years ago, Gallup released a study of public opinion in Western Europe. It reviewed surveys, taken in 2006 and 2007, in which people were asked whether "attacks in which civilians are the target" could be justified. Three percent of French respondents, 1 percent of Germans, and 6 percent of Brits said yes. In Berlin, Muslims hardly differed from their countrymen on this question. But in Paris and London, 11 percent of Muslims indicated that such attacks could be justified. (See Figure 51 of the report.)

 

Surveys in 2008 found higher numbers. Six percent of German Muslims, 11 percent of British Muslims, and 17 percent of French Muslims said deliberate attacks on civilians could be justified. (See Figure 50.)

 

On pornography, the pattern was reversed. In France, 43 percent of the general public said viewing pornography was morally acceptable, but only 16 percent of Muslims agreed. In Germany, 58 percent of the general public, but only 18 percent of Muslims, said it was acceptable. And while 35 percent of Brits said it was acceptable, only 1 percent of British Muslims shared that view. (See Figure 34.)

 

In sum, if you're looking for an argument in Western Europe that's more likely to appeal to Muslims than to the general population, pornography is a better bet than civilian casualties. And in France and the U.K., you'll find narrower Muslim support for the acceptability of porn than for the justifiability of attacks on civilians. These numbers don't convey the nuances of public opinion, nor do they warrant crude assumptions about individuals based on their faith. But they're pretty grim.

[Meshugger]

I think that i have asked this before, but i will ask again: 

 

1) What is the future of the nationstate for a nation that has previously been culturally homogenic? With no common ideals, traditions, laws or language that binds it together, what's left?

2) Why should a country become multucultural as a moral good? Why shouldn't it be seen as natural occurance of people moving and conducting commerce with each other without the need of it being a political agenda?

3) Should only first world countries become multicultural? Or is every country obliged to do so in the long run?

4) What will happen when there is no countries left with any distinct culture? What would be great about Japan being just an island, but with no distinctly japanese about it?  

[Hurlshort]

I'll answer these out of order to be confusing

 

In regards to 4, The idea that Japan will lose their distinctness because they've embraced another culture is not realistic.  The Japanese have been embracing all that is American for decades and it is still very distinct.  Just look at Japanese Baseball.

 

3, Considering the clashes between ethnic groups in Africa, it seems like every country would be better off with an acceptance of multiculturalism.  There are obviously much bigger issues in 3rd world nations, but accepting other cultures would be part of the solution to those issues.  

 

2, Public policy is often needed to enact social change.  It would be wonderful if it happened naturally, but that can also be a painful and long process.  People resist change.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Hurlshot

[Monte Carlo]

If we are just talking about preserving our own culture within the US, I don't see what the problem is.  I'm incredibly proud to be an American and I travel the country every summer sharing as much of this country as I can with my kids.  It does not make me insecure that there are other cultures around.

 

Jesus, do you have a unicorn in your garden that craps rainbows, too?

[Hurlshort]

 

If we are just talking about preserving our own culture within the US, I don't see what the problem is.  I'm incredibly proud to be an American and I travel the country every summer sharing as much of this country as I can with my kids.  It does not make me insecure that there are other cultures around.

 

Jesus, do you have a unicorn in your garden that craps rainbows, too?

 

 

Does Rainbow Dash count?

 

[HoonDing]

Multiculturalism is nice, as long as it doesn't involve incompatible cultures still stuck in the Middle-Ages.

[Meshugger]

I'll answer these out of order to be confusing

 

In regards to 4, The idea that Japan will lose their distinctness because they've embraced another culture is not realistic.  The Japanese have been embracing all that is American for decades and it is still very distinct.  Just look at Japanese Baseball.

 

3, Considering the clashes between ethnic groups in Africa, it seems like every country would be better off with an acceptance of multiculturalism.  There are obviously much bigger issues in 3rd world nations, but accepting other cultures would be part of the solution to those issues.  

 

2, Public policy is often needed to enact social change.  It would be wonderful if it happened naturally, but that can also be a painful and long process.  People resist change.

 

The answer to the first question was?....But ok then, allow me to retort:

 

2) I asked why it was good and why society on a national scale should adopt as an agenda instead treating it as a byproduct of commerce between people, and by extension, nations.

3) Could you clarify? Should people be conditioned to like it? How?

4) Japan adopting a western sport is not what i am talking about, i am talking about a hypothetical Japan becoming a hub of Libyan, Angolan, French, Indian and Russian immigrants. You know, a truly multicultural society.

 

It seems like you are talking about being friendly with other people (which is good btw). But I am talking about how it as political philosophy could be applied on nations.

[HoonDing]

Japan has acute demographical problems. That hypothetical Japan may not be so hypothetical anymore in 20-30 years.

[Hurlshort]

 

The answer to the first question was?....But ok then, allow me to retort:

 

2) I asked why it was good and why society on a national scale should adopt as an agenda instead treating it as a byproduct of commerce between people, and by extension, nations.

3) Could you clarify? Should people be conditioned to like it? How?

4) Japan adopting a western sport is not what i am talking about, i am talking about a hypothetical Japan becoming a hub of Libyan, Angolan, French, Indian and Russian immigrants. You know, a truly multicultural society.

 

It seems like you are talking about being friendly with other people (which is good btw). But I am talking about how it as political philosophy could be applied on nations.

 

 

You seem to be talking about some agenda where society is forced to adopt a bunch of cultures that are not even present.  Japan as a hub for Libya?  We have enough culture clashes throughout the world, we don't need to make up hypothetical scenarios.  

 

You are correct that we are naturally becoming multicultural due to trade and commerce.  It's a small world, diversity is everywhere.  I'm not saying society needs to create policies to speed up the spread of culture, that is happening fast enough.  Society need to help teach tolerance, so that people don't freak out when their neighbors act differently.

 

Here is your first question, which I didn't have time to get to.

 

1) What is the future of the nationstate for a nation that has previously been culturally homogenic? With no common ideals, traditions, laws or language that binds it together, what's left?

 

 

1 - I've addressed it already, but I don't see why any culture needs to be threatened by new traditions, ideals, and languages.  Laws of the land, on the other hand, should be used to make sure people can practice their traditions and live by their ideals freely.  For example, it does not affect me if my neighbors wear a hijab, but it also should not be forced on me to wear one.  That also doesn't make my nieghbor any less of an American.  You can have a strong sense of nationalism and still be different than your neighbors.

[ManifestedISO]

 

Do we really need to go over the history of New York, San Francisco, etc.?

 

Didn't horrible things happen to the Chinese in San Francisco in the 19th century?

 

 

Insular culturalism was probably at its height in that age here. Every race present in North America  ... Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Black, Native American, Mexican, et al ... had horrible things thrust upon them. 

 

The cold light of day on this subject was written by Ronald Takaki, called A Different Mirror. It is both remarkable and astounding, and disturbing, but not without hope.             

[NOK222]

But Hurlshot, what IS american culture?

[Hurlshort]

But Hurlshot, what IS american culture?

 

Do you want me to recommend some books on the topic?  There isn't really a simple answer to that question, but I'd venture that's the same for most countries.

 

I once had a history professor describe it this way.  In the US, if our doorbell stops working, we fix it.  I think his point was about the pioneer spirit of America.  If the roof needs shingling, we get up there and do it ourselves.  We invent stuff.  We restore stuff.  It's not exactly unique to just the US, but it is rather widespread.  First in flight, first to the moon, Al Gore inventing the internet, etc.