Permanent Injuries

[Osvir]

Yo!

So, this is an idea I've been thinking about and have posted in several of the "Healing" and "Injuries" threads that has come and gone. I think it is a fairly basic idea that could be simple to execute.

If you know my sort of thread of thought, you should know I enjoy a good challenge, which this idea caters fully too. There are several methods I have in mind, so let me get on with it. The first 2 examples are an "easy" injury to implement.

Scenario 1: The "Chaotic" Version (Based on Luck)
1. You are in a fight, the enemy scores that Critical Hit (that one which you learn to "hate")
2. Your character loses an eye, and is penalized with -1 Accuracy for the rest of the game.

Scenario 2: The "Treatable" Version (Still based on Luck but can be treated)
1. You are in a fight, the enemy scores that Critical Hit 
2. Your character is on the verge of losing and eye unless treated.
3. You have a potion, bandages or whatnot, close to a Camp Site, and can rest and your character does not lose an eye (thus no penalty)

How would this be presented? Would the character model change?

No, not at all. The simplest method I can think of would be a text line in the "Records" tab:

 

 

See "Free Action" and "Haste"? Replace that with "Injury: Eye-loss" or something.

The more difficult version I can think of... it would be "Arm-loss". Because that would affect the Inventory screen as well. Take this picture below, it would nullify one arm (let's say the "Right" arm). I haven't photoshoped the picture but I think you get the picture I am conveying, basically putting an "X" or greying out the Arm if affected by a Permanent Injury.

Again, the character model (paperdoll) wouldn't need to change (the character model and paperdoll would still have 2 arms but can only equip items to one), because I believe we, the majority of gamers/humans, fill in the blanks with our imagination. 

Thoughts?

[Silent Winter]

I think that this would lead to reloads for most people so it would need to be a difficulty level option.

Losing an arm - you'd need to relearn your weapons and balance - and then if you lost the other one later?

Same for losing an eye - you'd lose depth-perception (hence the accuracy penalty) but then you could lose the other one later...

It'd have to be pretty unlikely (such that losing 2 in one game virtually never happens) or go with the short-term treatable approach.

 

It's not something I'd like to play with myself but it would probably suit the ironman/no-reloads crowd.

[LadyCrimson]

I think that this would lead to reloads for most people so it would need to be a difficulty level option.

^ This.

 

And if it was based on luck, that would = a RNG form of calculation, yes? So I probably wouldn't like it in that case, if the effects of such injuries were permanent, because there's no way, by skills, to be able to avoid it, even if you're superman in combat. RNG's in games are notoriously terrible. If the injuries were a timed penalty, then maybe. eg, break an arm, -1 to strength or agility (or whatever) for 2 weeks of in-game days.

 

Bandages or kits to fix and such are fine. I just wouldn't want unavoidably permanent, and based on something as iffy as Luck.

[Osvir]

 

I think that this would lead to reloads for most people so it would need to be a difficulty level option.

^ This.

 

And if it was based on luck, that would = a RNG form of calculation, yes? So I probably wouldn't like it in that case, if the effects of such injuries were permanent, because there's no way, by skills, to be able to avoid it, even if you're superman in combat. RNG's in games are notoriously terrible. If the injuries were a timed penalty, then maybe. eg, break an arm, -1 to strength or agility (or whatever) for 2 weeks of in-game days.

 

Bandages or kits to fix and such are fine. I just wouldn't want unavoidably permanent, and based on something as iffy as Luck.

Well, in my defense and to the ideas defense, I did provide a concept in the OP of getting an injury that you can treat, to elaborate on that:

 

Untreated temporary injuries transforming into permanent injuries~ that's kind of what I'm going for. That might've been a better thread title hrm. Anyways, this is probably an idea I'll play with when I try to mod the game.

 

This is ofc related to harder difficulties. I find- and imagine it being somewhat a charm getting to the end of the game, all battered and worn, you got one eye, one arm, a broken knee cap etc. etc. and doing your best to succeed at a disadvantage.

 

I think that this would lead to reloads for most people so it would need to be a difficulty level option.

Losing an arm - you'd need to relearn your weapons and balance - and then if you lost the other one later?

Same for losing an eye - you'd lose depth-perception (hence the accuracy penalty) but then you could lose the other one later...

It'd have to be pretty unlikely (such that losing 2 in one game virtually never happens) or go with the short-term treatable approach.

 

It's not something I'd like to play with myself but it would probably suit the ironman/no-reloads crowd.

This idea is not "I want more realism", this is purely "I want challenging mechanics".

 

Underline = Hello

[Silent Winter]

 If the injuries were a timed penalty, then maybe. eg, break an arm, -1 to strength or agility (or whatever) for 2 weeks of in-game days.

Thinking about it more - I wouldn't mind something like this - injuries that take time to heal and cause penalties in the meantime (even full-on "can't use that broken arm" penalties)

 

Untreated temporary injuries transforming into permanent injuries~ that's kind of what I'm going for. That might've been a better thread title hrm. Anyways, this is probably an idea I'll play with when I try to mod the game.

But then why would you leave it untreated? (other than for the extra challenge, as you said - that's what challenge modes are for after all - but from an in-game/rp perspective, I couldn't see it - [python]'It's just a flesh-wound' ... "Flesh-wound? I cut your arm off"[/python])  Or is it a case of 'you might be able to treat it in time IF you can make it to the rest spot' ?

[Osvir]

Untreated temporary injuries transforming into permanent injuries~ that's kind of what I'm going for. That might've been a better thread title hrm. Anyways, this is probably an idea I'll play with when I try to mod the game.

But then why would you leave it untreated? (other than for the extra challenge, as you said - that's what challenge modes are for after all - but from an in-game/rp perspective, I couldn't see it - [python]'It's just a flesh-wound' ... "Flesh-wound? I cut your arm off"[/python])  Or is it a case of 'you might be able to treat it in time IF you can make it to the rest spot' ?

Depends on how the rest mechanic is handled really, because there needs to be (in my opinion) a risk factor the other way around as well. Do you press on forward and take the injury as a consequence, or do you turn back to the rest spot and suffer whatever consequence that might bring? Is there any consequence at all when you go to the rest spot? Can you spam the Camp Site and rest as much as you like (i.e. can you sleep 356 days of the year?)?

 

It's a question of preparation as well and adding incentive for more preparation. You don't want to lose an arm right? Right. So you bring with you tools to prevent that in case your character would suffer the risk of losing an arm. And, you could use the same resources for something else as well (bandages, for instance, let's say they are stackable by 3 so you can't carry too many, but might heal 1 HP or close wounds if you have "Bleed" effect or something). Or herbs that you can chew to get rid of nasty poison, or mix into a potion.

 

It's kind of like the Hardcore mode in Fallout: New Vegas, you got to drink water and eat food or else you'll starve or dehydrate.

 

Or better yet, as an example, the game "Don't Starve". If you don't treat your character right you'll suffer dire consequences.

 

If there is no risk of losing an arm, then you don't have to worry about that as you engage in combat (but the combat itself might be riskful in itself ofc). All I'm saying is that I believe the mindset would be different if you go into combat, knowing that you might lose an arm in doing so. A tactical element to consider. Of course, getting an injury in combat would also be difficult to deal with, as it'd make your character weaker during combat. Suddenly you might need to wrap up the battle much faster than you previously thought, otherwise you might be an arm shorter.

[kgambit]

Linking crippling wounds to crits could work.  But the injuries have to be treatable

I would use the link below as the model with the appropriate adjustment for PE stats:

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Injuries

 

The only addition you need for PE is to add something comparable to injury kits. 

(the only other way to remove them would be via resting and I'm not sure that encouraging additional resting is a good idea)

If that doesn't fit the game design model for the state of medicine in PE then I would drop the idea

 

As mentioned before, permanent crippling wounds are simply going to result in reloads.   

[Osvir]

As mentioned before, permanent crippling wounds are simply going to result in reloads.   

 

Presumably. But as Silent Winter also said regarding this: the Ironman crowd (or those who intend to play on Ironman) can't reload. This feature is directed at a harder difficulty a higher challenge (as I usually direct many of my ideas).

 

When PE comes out I'll see how the scripts work, maybe you can modify some existing values to become virtually permanent (Extending a "Weakening" Effect for 100000000000000000000 hours/in-game days etc. etc.), maybe you can even modify Critical Hit values. The idea is based with Player choice in mind, it shouldn't be something that is "tossed" in the Players face a la "You got injured. Deal with it  8)".

 

A feature in a "Challenge Mod" might be more appropriate than in the original release.

[Sacred_Path]

Loss of health will result in you being maimed, which will bestow penalties as you described. On the higher difficulties you will be dead, which is, well, a permanent injury in its own right.

[kgambit]

 

As mentioned before, permanent crippling wounds are simply going to result in reloads.   

 

Presumably. But as Silent Winter also said regarding this: the Ironman crowd (or those who intend to play on Ironman) can't reload. This feature is directed at a harder difficulty a higher challenge (as I usually direct many of my ideas).

 

When PE comes out I'll see how the scripts work, maybe you can modify some existing values to become virtually permanent (Extending a "Weakening" Effect for 100000000000000000000 hours/in-game days etc. etc.), maybe you can even modify Critical Hit values. The idea is based with Player choice in mind, it shouldn't be something that is "tossed" in the Players face a la "You got injured. Deal with it  8)".

 

A feature in a "Challenge Mod" might be more appropriate than in the original release.

 

 

Fair enough re: Iron Man mode. 

 

I think the idea is extendable to normal difficulty in PE under the conditions I mentioned.   It's in Dragon Age Origins on all difficulty levels and it's not a crippling (har har pun intended)

mechanic.

 

Loss of health will result in you being maimed, which will bestow penalties as you described. On the higher difficulties you will be dead, which is, well, a permanent injury in its own right.

 

 

True enough.  LOL @ death as a permanent injury

Edited September 21, 2013 by kgambit

[Nonek]

Wouldn't mind something like the Eye of Rhynn or the Hand of Kwll from the Corum books, one supposes however that these mutilations would need to be garnered in scripted sequences (to prevent repititive loss of the same extremity,) perhaps stupid or risky decisions in the text based encounters? Whatever the case I unfortunately would not wish injuries to be dealt with as easily as in Dragon Age, injuries were pathetically trivial in that game, at least for my tastes i'm afraid to say.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Nonek

[Messier-31]

Wow, this brings back memories. One of my WHFR characters had some serious foot damage infliction, and since that accident I had to roleplay a limping warrior. It was pretty hard rolling for everything that required dexterity, but somehow we managed to pull this off in the long run. Being already an advanced adventurer at the time, rumours were heard across the land about a limping human warrior with a 2-h-sword wreaking havoc amidst his foes.

 

I think permanent injuries are worth considering in cRPG games, but these should not be possible early in the game and rely on some luck, I guess. As characters may permanently die, so there should be place for other unpleasant possibilities e.g. broken finger (treatable) or limb loss (or is it too much?).

[rjshae]

I'd be okay with a permanent injury if it was specifically written into the story. Otherwise no. If you want to play a crippled character, then just stick with the crummiest equipment you can find.

[jamoecw]

so why not just grab some trollish blood and fix up the eye you lost last winter?  if injuries happened with every critical you would accrue them far too often, if removing them is as trivial as in DA then why bother?  to do it right you need to balance it just right, and have the situation about the injury back you up story wise, random stuff seems like not the way to go.  part of a quest, maybe.

[Jarmo]

I'd be okay with a permanent injury if it was specifically written into the story. Otherwise no. If you want to play a crippled character, then just stick with the crummiest equipment you can find.

 

In NWN2 Dark Waters campaign (psionics and pirates) there was an instance where you or another was going to lose an arm.

Which was awesome, because then you was off to buy a hook replacement and there were plenty of those around, with various extra abilities.

 

But otherwise, a permanent injury is like a companion dying. Reload and retry.

Treatable (permanent unless treated) injuries would be ok, though if too frequent it'd just be another hassle, but I can't actually see the significant upside.

There's going to be a maimed or what was it called state for nearly dying already, this would just be that state randomly happening.

[TrashMan]

Critical injury - loss of attribute points. Persistant untill healed. Healing takes a lot of time, so you're just gonna have to accept being weaker for a while.

 

Maybe you cannot ever recover COMPLETELY? So instead of a -2 dex penalty, after helaing it's -1?

Or reduce Max health by a pont or two?

 

Otherwise, I can't see a permanent injury woking in a game with a save/load option. In Ironman it might work.

[PrimeJunta]

Permanent injuries are not worth the trouble IMO, as very few players would bother continuing after getting a permanent injury serious enough to affect stats. That's reload-tyme. (Or restart-tyme if you're in Trial of Iron.) The "verge of" mechanic would amount to a variant of "hovering at death's door."

 

IOW, I think this would take a significant amount of effort to do, and have very little return in gameplay value. 

[motorizer]

Also there is the point that you will likely get into far more fights than any real warrior ever did, so chances are you might not just lose an arm, over the course of the game you might end up losing both arms, a leg and an eye...at what point would you give up adventuring for a quiet life?

It would have to be limited to one injury per character.... and then it would feel a bit odd if by the end of the game everyone in your party was missing a limb.

[JFSOCC]

I'm going to veto this. If my arm gets cut off, I will reload, as will a lot of other players, I am willing to bet.

[Gfted1]

A variant of scenario 2 is already in the game:

 

 

 

2. ...If character death isn't enabled, characters who hit 0 Health are maimed (massive penalties to accuracy and defenses, drop if they take any Health damage at all) until they rest, which is a pretty bad condition to be in.

[Nonek]

For some reason the cautionary tale of the head of Vecna keeps springing to mind, if replacable limbs are implemented this might be a nice little easter egg.

[Osvir]

Nnyyyarrrgh daaaaaaaamn yoooooooou baaaackspaaace!!!!!

Now that's done with, let me try to recall the 3 paragraphs I wrote...

Recollection A) Prosthetics

Gun/Cannon Arm: Arm Loss

Wooden Leg: Leg Loss

Sharingan (Joke) Eye Loss

The last one could however be a Magical Eye or whatnot, perhaps better discussed in this thread (How many [Rings]?) which is steering towards a discussion on accessory ideas.

Recollection B) Permanent Injuries & Critical Hit Protection

.................................................. So.... *scratches head in ritualistic manner to summon paragraphs from thin air! Success!*

Permanent Injuries should obviously only be affected by Critical Hits. So it gave me the thought of "Critical Hit Protection". But before that, I agree that losing all limbs like the Black Knight in Monty Python is awkward and rather silly so it would make sense to limit severe/permanent injuries to a 1 of the kind and have a pool of 5-6 injuries that you could suffer from. Going back to the whole "Critical Hit, Hit, Graze, Miss" discussion, it'd look something like this:

- Critical Miss (Don't know if this is in, but put it in here anyways) - Optional in Normal or Hard and up mandatory.
- Miss
- Graze
- Hit
- Critical Hit
- Severe Critical Hit (Causes Permanent Injury) - Hardcore Difficulty

The Bold is what we know, the other two are just "suggestions" conceptual idea and visual aid. The [severe Critical Hit] would roll a dice between the 5-6 Injuries and choose one (One Eye, One Leg, One Arm, One Hand etc. etc.).

 

Now, Critical Hit Protection would be fairly important. What would be the best ways to avoid Critical Hits? More armor perhaps? Yes. Maybe even have to spend some extra points on an Attribute to gain more protection against it. That implies you'd have to allocate points, thoughts and resources on strategical measures as to try and avoid getting a Permanent Injury.

The Permanent Injury mechanic I want to discuss and envision is the one where you get "Checked" by your mate whilst playing Chess, but you can still block the "Check" by sacrificing a Peasant.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Osvir

[rjshae]

In a futuristic sci-fi setting, developers might be able to incorporate a damage system by means of cybernetic implants, such as Luke Skywalker's hand in the Star Wars series. If they were to incorporate a magitech equivalent and you were playing hard core mode, then getting a permanent injury fixed would be a question of cost and availability of the replacement part. For realism, the replacement could provide a minor skills adjustment, such as (for an artificial arm) a penalty to Dex-based skills but a bonus to melee damage. That might make it interesting to implement.

 

Edit: oops, sorry, I missed the latest discussion.

Edited September 25, 2013 by rjshae

[Osvir]

The Permanent Injury mechanic I want to discuss and envision is the one where you get "Checked" by your mate whilst playing Chess, but you can still block the "Check" by sacrificing a Peasant.

Edit time ran out.

 

You block the "Check" because you knew it was coming/part of your strategy. One sacrifice (spending more attribute points on [stat X] but can't get 18/00 in Strength because of it or putting on more armor and lose some mobility or something) to get an advantage later (get better Critical Hit Protection).

 

In a futuristic sci-fi setting, developers might be able to incorporate a damage system by means of cybernetic implants, such as Luke Skywalker's hand in the Star Wars series. If they were to incorporate a magitech equivalent and you were playing hard core mode, then getting a permanent injury fixed would be a question of cost and availability of the replacement part. For realism*, the replacement could provide a minor skills adjustment, such as (for an artificial arm) a penalty to Dex-based skills but a bonus to melee damage. That might make it interesting to implement.

 

Edit: oops, sorry, I missed the latest discussion.

* Just wanted to emphasize that I don't care much about the "realistic" aspects, but rather I enjoy the "challenging" aspects (not denying that more realism is usually hand in hand with more challenge). Sounds like a neat little balancing idea you've got there though I like it.

[Dawn Quixotic]

I'd say this is okay as long as there is a way to fix it.
If the setting has healing magic or bio-regrowth-technology. Similar to how, if your character is dead, you can just cast "Raise Dead"  on them if you need them back and don't want to go through the hassle of reloading.

OR if you can change body parts, like cybernetic limbs, or geting a golem arm, or something, to make up for it. If there's various Eyes of Vecna floating around you can conveniently pop back in.

 

For most games, anyway. Unless you are going to make that super-hardcore RPG where you have to eat and drink, have to treat injuries immediately or they will fester, everything has time limits and most things have permanent consequences. Might be an  interesting game experience, but you have to go into it expecting it to be that kind of ridiculous.

 

At the end of the day, I think it just wouldn't be worth programming in, really. I don't think it would really add anything, especially considering you need to include a way around it, or they'll just reload anyway. Debilitating criticals make more sense if it's like, "you received an eye injury so you are blind for now"  or "you got a serious arm injury so you are unable to use your right arm for now". But that stuff should go away when you rest, just like taking all those hits from a sword that didn't hit in of your immediately vital organs did... y'know? You're health is already abstracted to hit points, so just keep the concept.

Thinking on it, I do like the idea of an extra bonus for a critical hit that isn't simply massive damage, but some kind of permanent injury just doesn't add anything.