What you did today

[Malcador]

I can write a life story similar as mine is too okay to complain about. I'd hate to be on call, our clients have to do that crap and that'd result in me getting fired for being too ragey about it at work.

[Walsingham]

Gfted1, just because you made it doesn't mean anyone can. Quite the reverse, IMO. So if I'm disagreeing with your politics you may take that as a sincere compliment to your personality.

 

From my personal perspective, it's like arguing about antibiotics. Sure, you can heal without them, and you can also get really sick if you stay on them too long. Most people do neither. They take a hit, they take the drugs, they get better quicker.

 

To understand the welfare state you have to understand why we created it. It emerged in the UK in the wake of WW1 and WW2. Three core concepts emerged: 

 

1. A faith in organised motivated administration as a means of achieving the 'impossible'

2. A mixing up of social classes and a realisation by the successful middle and upper classes that the lower classes weren't workshy bastards, and were generally much more pleasant when they weren't starving

3. As JFSOCC already pointed out, it costs less to keep a man in his house and capable of finding a job than it does to have him homeless and effectively incapable

 

Of course, the same mechanism for keeping honest men from ruin can be abused to keep lazy ****ers in clover in return for their vote. Which is why I find it infuriating that modern socialists p*** all over the noble principles on which it was founded.

[Rosbjerg]

Of course, the same mechanism for keeping honest men from ruin can be abused to keep lazy ****ers in clover in return for their vote. Which is why I find it infuriating that modern socialists p*** all over the noble principles on which it was founded.

 

Well some do, while some believe homeless people choose to be homeless. I often jokingly remark that we should kill off the most extreme 10% in either end of the political spectrum

[Woldan]

Brought my posessed rifle to the gunsmith, we talked about the possible problems that might cause it to shoot so much to the left but he insisted on shooting it first with various ammo before making any assumptions and/or modifications.
I told him not to shoot the gun at extreme ranges or he might shoot himself in the back with the projectile flying a full circle. We had a good laugh.

That gunsmith is a cool guy, he totally looks and acts like a highly talented Swirfneblin / deep gnome smith or machinist. Even his repair shop looks like its from an RPG game. I almost wanted to ask him if he offers any steam powered golems with repeating crossbows.   

Edited September 26, 2013 by Woldan

[Walsingham]

The - in my opinion fatal - flaw in the darwinian notion that the weak fail and fall is that they don't get swept off the table by a friendly referee. As JFSOCC says, they end up fuelling social disintegration and urban rot.

 

There's a good reason why a European 'riot' would be unrecognisable as such in the USA or in other countries without a social safety net.

 

Ultimately I have a parochial and personal reason for supporting it. When my folks had me we were dirt poor. I would have simply died for want of healthcare and adequate nutrition. I recognise that's just me, but I figure it's the least I can do.

[Gfted1]

Gfted1, just because you made it doesn't mean anyone can.

Agreed. I was just trying to illustrate that a person with no beginning advantages and a pretty huge disadvantage can carve out a decent middle class life through effort (and some good luck). 

 

Well some do, while some believe homeless people choose to be homeless. I often jokingly remark that we should kill off the most extreme 10% in either end of the political spectrum

I think a lot of people do "choose" to be homeless. Notwithstanding the hard luck cases where someone lost their job/died/whatever, I believe most homeless are in that condition due to their own actions, most commonly substance abuse of some kind. We already have programs to help people but at some point personal accountability has to rear its ugly head, imo.

[Hurlshort]

Well in California we cut quite a few mental health programs decades ago, and because of that a good chunk of our homeless are people with mental illnesses.  They are typically in and out of halfway homes.

[Walsingham]

I agree that personal responsibility is key. But sometimes you make people rally by shouting, sometimes with threats, sometimes with kindness, sometimes by example.

 

I guess the point where we don't differ, and it's heartening, is that we'd both like people to rally.

 

I work with a fellah who would revealed this week that he'd be quite content for 'the weak' to just die. I haven't decided what to do about that. I may be obliged to treat him as a worthless ****.

[Malcador]

A mayoral candidate said something pretty funny about deporting all homeless out of the city, said he had a 'final solution' to the problem. Didn't win, naturally.

[Nepenthe]

Gfted1, just because you made it doesn't mean anyone can. Quite the reverse, IMO. So if I'm disagreeing with your politics you may take that as a sincere compliment to your personality.

 

From my personal perspective, it's like arguing about antibiotics. Sure, you can heal without them, and you can also get really sick if you stay on them too long. Most people do neither. They take a hit, they take the drugs, they get better quicker.

 

To understand the welfare state you have to understand why we created it. It emerged in the UK in the wake of WW1 and WW2. Three core concepts emerged:

 

1. A faith in organised motivated administration as a means of achieving the 'impossible'

2. A mixing up of social classes and a realisation by the successful middle and upper classes that the lower classes weren't workshy bastards, and were generally much more pleasant when they weren't starving

3. As JFSOCC already pointed out, it costs less to keep a man in his house and capable of finding a job than it does to have him homeless and effectively incapable

 

Of course, the same mechanism for keeping honest men from ruin can be abused to keep lazy ****ers in clover in return for their vote. Which is why I find it infuriating that modern socialists p*** all over the noble principles on which it was founded.

Doesn't even have to be vote... I swear I'm the only person who' s ever worked in their life a lot of my clients have ever met.

 

I've worked since I was 15, if not to have food on the table, then at least to have music to listen to and games to play, mostly due to the crippling tax burden my university teacher parents had to deal with.

[Walsingham]

The funny thing is that I consider those extremists to be one tantrum short of being homeless.

 

EDIT: Having said that I'm also opposed to government spending accounting for such a large proportion of GDP. They aren't really that smart when they spend, and I just think it would be better having it sloshing around the pockets of the people who made the money.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Walsingham

[Gfted1]

But sometimes you make people rally by shouting, sometimes with threats, sometimes with kindness, sometimes by example.

That's an excellent point and one I will try to remember.

[Calax]

Realized both a depressing and good thing today.

 

I probably won't commit suicide without at least finding a home for Octavian.

 

Good because I won't do it, bad because I even thought about it...

[JFSOCC]

I'm digging this whole debate, btw, good posts all around.

For me, reading that post was like looking at an alien world. Ill never understand why the successful should be penalized to take care of the unsuccessful. But on the bright side, as I advance to my twilight years, at least I too will be able to become a burden to my society.

 

*sigh* That's not true, I responsibly have a retirement plan.

I too have a retirement plan, although basic. secured by the government by paying taxes. Should I find work, the government mandates my employer to pay into a retirement plan, every employer has to do this. Some employers exceed state regulations, as they are free to.

 

 

Wouldn't this political stuff normally have its own safe cosy thread? Just repeating Enoch's point.

 

Unless this is some kind of meta-what you did today which is going over my head.

If any mod wants to move this into its own thread we can go over there. It's a fair cop.

 

 

In general, success (or lack thereof) depends far more on circumstance and dumb luck than most people who consider themselves successful are willing to believe.

I agree that being in the right place at the right time is beneficial but to discount individual effort falls flat imo. Ill use myself as an example. I grew up with nothing. NOTHING. My father died when I was 7 and my mother, who had only been a housewife up to this point, took the only job she knew how to do, she became a waitress at local diners. I never even had new clothes until high school. All of my clothes came from resale shops like Goodwill and Salvation Army. We were poor as hell. She died when I was 17 and I was on my own from that time. Apparently defying the odds, I managed to not turn to crime, hard drugs or homelessness. Am I some kind of unique case? Of course not. People do that every day.

 

It would be an interesting counterpoint if being coddled by the state actually perpetuates the problem. Im not so sure JSFOCC would still be chillin at home at 27 if the mechanism wasn't in place to support that lifestyle. He would have been forced into action long before now. Possibly.

 

Unique, no, but uncommon. I'm not saying you would never be able to succeed without institutional help, but it does vastly increases your chances.

 

The argument that I would be moved to action I've heard before. It's the argument our political right uses to encourage action in the poor.

I'm sure that for some, you would be right. I also believe that for some, whatever action they could come up with, would not be enough to deal with the situation. It's true that it's fairly "cushy" to know that I have food tomorrow, and clothes, and healthcare. And I'll admit it, I might have found work.(at least before the economy tanked) I do think that I would end up better if I get a chance to develop myself (go to university, like I want to) It wouldn't have been rewarding work, maybe washing dishes somewhere, but that's not an argument I care to use.

 

The other end of the spectrum is that I might not have found work at all (and believe me I've looked) In which case it would have been homelessness, depression and suicide. (I'm very vulnerable to depression, long story) 

 

Mostly I think the important thing is about providing opportunities, and making sure that someone will be capable of taking them.

It's then up to them to take that responsibility.

 

Gfted1, just because you made it doesn't mean anyone can. Quite the reverse, IMO. So if I'm disagreeing with your politics you may take that as a sincere compliment to your personality.

 Ditto.

From my personal perspective, it's like arguing about antibiotics. Sure, you can heal without them, and you can also get really sick if you stay on them too long. Most people do neither. They take a hit, they take the drugs, they get better quicker.

 

To understand the welfare state you have to understand why we created it. It emerged in the UK in the wake of WW1 and WW2. Three core concepts emerged: 

 

1. A faith in organised motivated administration as a means of achieving the 'impossible'

2. A mixing up of social classes and a realisation by the successful middle and upper classes that the lower classes weren't workshy bastards, and were generally much more pleasant when they weren't starving

3. As JFSOCC already pointed out, it costs less to keep a man in his house and capable of finding a job than it does to have him homeless and effectively incapable

 

Of course, the same mechanism for keeping honest men from ruin can be abused to keep lazy ****ers in clover in return for their vote. Which is why I find it infuriating that modern socialists p*** all over the noble principles on which it was founded.

A recent study into fraud with benefits in the Netherlands showed that about 2% of all money spent on unemployment benefits was fraudulent.

http://www.vng.nl/onderwerpenindex/sociale-zaken/nieuws/gemeenten-herkennen-zich-niet-in-cijfers-bijstandsfraude

Schadelijk

Divosa en VNG betreuren het dat door de berichtgeving bijstandsgerechtigden zonder onderbouwing in een kwaad daglicht worden gesteld. Afgaande op de feiten bedraagt het aangetoonde fraudebedrag € 53 miljoen op jaarbasis, minder dan twee procent van het bedrag van de jaarlijkse uitgaven aan bijstandsuitkeringen. En ondanks dat gemeenten dit nog steeds te veel vinden, rechtvaardigt het de aanname dat veruit de meeste bijstandsgerechtigden zich aan de regels houden.

Translated by me:

Divosa and VNG regret that through the media benefit receipients are put in a negative light without substantiation. Based on the facts, the proven fraud amounts to €53 million a year, less than two percent of the total amount spent on poverty-benefits. This justifies the assumption that by far most benefit recipients abide by the rules, despite municipalities (they do the pay-out) still believe the amount of fraud is too much

 

 

I assure, most people want to work. unemployment gets real boring real fast.

 

 

 

Gfted1, just because you made it doesn't mean anyone can.

Agreed. I was just trying to illustrate that a person with no beginning advantages and a pretty huge disadvantage can carve out a decent middle class life through effort (and some good luck).

 

But it is the exception, not the rule.

 

Well some do, while some believe homeless people choose to be homeless. I often jokingly remark that we should kill off the most extreme 10% in either end of the political spectrum

I think a lot of people do "choose" to be homeless. Notwithstanding the hard luck cases where someone lost their job/died/whatever, I believe most homeless are in that condition due to their own actions, most commonly substance abuse of some kind. We already have programs to help people but at some point personal accountability has to rear its ugly head, imo.

 

There is this book, called "van millionair tot krantenjongen" or "from millionaire to paperboy"

Many of those who end up on the street are those who were unprepared and vulnerable, had little to no support network (either family or friends)

But, a not insignificant amount of those who ended up on the street were just unlucky. Their poverty was sudden and unexpected. I know that's a scary thought, but there you have it.

 

And I agree that people should be held accountable, but responsibility is taught, not inherent, and there is no point punishing those who made mistakes, rather it pays to reach out to them, and help them become responsible, productive members of society. Judging is pointless when you can help. And even the biggest retard/irresponsible junkie can be helped if provided the right aid. I don't think a persons mistakes should cripple him for life.

 

Now lets the the 7 new replies since I started this post.

Edited September 26, 2013 by JFSOCC

[JFSOCC]

Realized both a depressing and good thing today.

 

I probably won't commit suicide without at least finding a home for Octavian.

 

Good because I won't do it, bad because I even thought about it...

Luckily there's a difference between thought and action. And at least it warns you about your state of mind, so you can act on it.

So you have something of a support network in case depression takes over?

[Azdeus]

Well, the opthalmologist appointment went reasonably well, my eye is responding to the treatment, the back of the eye looks well, there are some visible signs of the pupil and the iris being attached to each other, but they've let go by now. But the pressure in the eye is above normal (Got toldd, 10-22 was normal, I had 21 before - now 30 ) so I got some more eyedrops to take.

 

Got ordered to continue my aggressive treatment and return on monday.

In her words; "One of many visits to be done, you'll probably get to know us all here!".

 

And today my new graphicscard arrived, wich turned out to require way more power than the dealers homepage said (600W on the GPU's box, vs 500W on the webpage) though what's what is hard to say, since the maths (12V*42A=504W) on it's requirements seem to favour the dealers. :S

[JFSOCC]

I'm glad you went Azdeus, having your pupils dilate asymmetrically sounds somewhat disturbing.

[Calax]

 

Realized both a depressing and good thing today.

 

I probably won't commit suicide without at least finding a home for Octavian.

 

Good because I won't do it, bad because I even thought about it...

Luckily there's a difference between thought and action. And at least it warns you about your state of mind, so you can act on it.

So you have something of a support network in case depression takes over?

 

Sometimes, it really depends on how much I feel i can open up to those around me, and how bad my mental state gets. I've noticed that as I get worse I become more reclusive which becomes a cycle of doom so I'm trying to sort it out.

[Azdeus]

I'm glad you went Azdeus, having your pupils dilate asymmetrically sounds somewhat disturbing.

 

 

Well, this was a sceduled recheck so to speak, to see if the treatment is working and what, if any, side effects I'm having. I have no idea what dangers high pressure in the eyes mean, but I'm fairly certain that with my luck, it means they pop like grapes when you rub the gravel out of your eyes in the morning!

 

Apparently the pupils not opening properly is par for the course, as Amentep said previously.

I asked a crapload more questions to the doctor this time, that she was tutoring/mentoring a younger doctor at the same time equally helped me, since she told her what was going on, and I was able to ask questions based on that.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Azdeus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

For some reason, Azdeus' avatar cracks me up.

 

I took an exam, hopefully nailed it. Going to drink a little bit, play something nostalgic, and relax.

[Amentep]

Glad to hear your second appointment was an improvement. When I had trouble with my eyes a couple of years ago I had many appointments with my eye doctor.

 

Well, this was a sceduled recheck so to speak, to see if the treatment is working and what, if any, side effects I'm having. I have no idea what dangers high pressure in the eyes mean, but I'm fairly certain that with my luck, it means they pop like grapes when you rub the gravel out of your eyes in the morning!

High pressure can create an issue with sight - I think damage to the optic nerve if left unchecked (as I understand it, Glaucoma's blindness is because it causes increased interocular pressure which is why they test eye pressure in the first place for signs of early Glaucoma).

 

It might be a side effect of the iritis, if she didn't seem that alarmed over it.

[Azdeus]

Thanks!

 

She did prescribe me what the instructions says are betablockers essentially, to bring down the pressure, what the exact reason was I don't know, and she probably can't tell exactly either without having me stop the rest of my meds.

[LadyCrimson]

Time for the pre-winter housecleaning! *scrubdustshakewashputaway*

 

Also, our latest energy co. bill claims a "new and improved, easier to read statement!" Which as far as I can tell, mostly equals larger text printed on larger sized paper, creating more waste. I guess they added a graph too, to let you know how extremely poorly you fare against what they think should be "normal" energy usage. Or perhaps they should get more with the times about what "normal" usage is in this high-tech geek-filled area.

[LadyCrimson]

2 years ago - Me: "You need to ant-fog up in the roof space, they're nesting in the walls and come in the house when it's cold/rainy. It'll get worse all the time."** ...  Hubby: "Uh huh."

1 year ago - Me: "Ants in the walls. Still need to deal with that." ... Hubby: "Uh huh."

 

Today: Me: "Going to the store." *gets back 40 min. later*

Hubby: *running around kitchen with a wet rag* ... "We were attacked by ants!" (recent pizza box left on top of the fridge)

Me: "Figure out where they're coming from?"

Hubby: "Yeah, over here. Looked outside, didn't see a trail leading into the house."

Me: "That's because .... they're in the walls."

Hubby: *silence*

 

 

 

**the ceiling opening to roof space is in hubby's office closet, which is filled with ... stuff.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 years ago - Me: "You need to ant-fog up in the roof space, they're nesting in the walls and come in the house when it's cold/rainy. It'll get worse all the time."** ...  Hubby: "Uh huh."

1 year ago - Me: "Ants in the walls. Still need to deal with that." ... Hubby: "Uh huh."

 

Today: Me: "Going to the store." *gets back 40 min. later*

Hubby: *running around kitchen with a wet rag* ... "We were attacked by ants!" (recent pizza box left on top of the fridge)

Me: "Figure out where they're coming from?"

Hubby: "Yeah, over here. Looked outside, didn't see a trail leading into the house."

Me: "That's because .... they're in the walls."

Hubby: *silence*

 

 

 

**the ceiling opening to roof space is in hubby's office closet, which is filled with ... stuff.

Marital Bliss sure doesn't seem as good as some people hype it.