Space Fans: X Rebirth has a Release Date!

[marelooke]

"SHOW ME YOUR SKILLZ"

 

I think they may have been future proofing for release on next gen. That's what the game feels like, because now there is limited functionality to menus and hotkeys. I mean why would they even bother with gamepad design for something as complex as a space sim?? I always use joystick/keyboard combo.

 

You'd think they would have learned something from The Witcher 2...

 

Shame the release is so shoddy, the easier-to-get-started aspect really interested me as while I loved the idea of X3 (I rather enjoyed EVE) I found getting into it just too time consuming.

[Keyrock]

 

"SHOW ME YOUR SKILLZ"

 

I think they may have been future proofing for release on next gen. That's what the game feels like, because now there is limited functionality to menus and hotkeys. I mean why would they even bother with gamepad design for something as complex as a space sim?? I always use joystick/keyboard combo.

 

You'd think they would have learned something from The Witcher 2...

 

Shame the release is so shoddy, the easier-to-get-started aspect really interested me as while I loved the idea of X3 (I rather enjoyed EVE) I found getting into it just too time consuming.

 

It's one thing building an aRPG around a gamepad, that type of game actually naturally lends itself to a gamepad (For example, I prefer to play TW2 with my 360 pad than with m&kb, and not because of the horrid menus). Plus, TW2's interface, while clumsy, is at least fully functional with m&kb. Building a space sim around a gamepad is straight up ridiculous. A gamepad can't even begin to have even 30% of the necessary buttons to control everything in a deep, complex space sim.  In order to make a proper space sim (not just an arcady space ship pew pew type game) playable solely on a gamepad you have to strip the game of many functions (check) and force most commands to be done through layers of menus (check).

 

The only way I can make sense of the UI design is that they're working toward a Steam Machine release and want the game to be fully playable with just the Steam Machine Gamepad (I'm just going to refer to it as "SMG" from now on).  It makes sense, they've been porting all their games to Linux anyway and having proper SMG support is sensible, I'm not against them making a separate control scheme for the SMG, but they should have worked on that AFTER making sure they have a proper, robust control scheme for m&kb and flightstick.  The Steam Machine isn't even going to be available to the general public for likely at least another 2 or 3 months, likely longer.  At least in the case of TW2 you could make an argument that gamepad is the superior control method for that game (I, for example, would make that argument, though I wouldn't be adamant about it).  I don't think anyone is going to make the argument that a gamepad (even the SMG) is a superior control method for a hardcore space sim as compared to flightstick or m&kb, at least not anyone without significant brain damage.  Why make control scheme for a clearly inferior input device first, especially when said device won't even hit the market for several more months, and then work to make a proper control scheme for clearly superior input devices afterward?  Wouldn't it make a heck of a lot more sense to make proper control schemes for m&kb and flightstick first, then work on a separate control scheme for the SMG?  Am I talking crazy here?

[Mamoulian War]

Nope, you are talking sense and I fully agree with you. To bad that kind of sense is not crossing the minds of the proper people in the industry...

[Zoraptor]

It makes sense to consumers, but not to those making (or more likely producing/ running the making of) the games. The general rule is that if you're going to have a 'minimum target' for a control scheme then you have to make sure that your game works on that minimal scheme. It's easy enough to make anything work on a positional input+keyboard scheme because you have effectively unlimited buttons available, so even if you have a mouse and thus don't have a built in roll control (only yaw/ pitch) you can spin that off to a key- or even the mouse wheel. If you want to have a controller scheme only option then you can very easily end up with controls simply not fitting onto the control scheme. Of course the satan steam controller is supposed to have the ability to add buttons/ keys but how well that works in practice is a more open question.

 

It's all very well to argue that they shouldn't be making that choice in the first place and should decide that [control scheme] is fundamentally too limiting, and it may well be the case here though I obviously cannot comment first hand. But, if they make that choice then they will annoy some people who then won't buy, and they will limit their future options. It's not hard to see why they and many others come down on the side of 'lowest common denominator' first approach.

[licketysplit]

CD Projekt pulled a similar stunt. I feel it was with the UI system and certain graphical implementations. They were clearly readying Witcher 2 to be released on xbox. But unlike Egosoft, they didn't nerf anything else in the game. A space sim is a hell of a lot more complex. Whoever thought it was a good idea to make the game pad the core input device, should be beat over the friggin head with one.

[alanschu]

Would it be possible to play the original Wing Commanders or X-Wing/TIE Fighters with just a gamepad?

[Azdeus]

I could'nt get my USB joystick to work with WC Privateer, but I did get it to work with Privateer Gemini Gold.

 

Dunno about the other. Getting a joystick ain't expensive though.

[Zoraptor]

I got my MS joystick to work with all the WCs when I replayed them earlier this year, though it needed some work from the GOG defaults so I played a fair bit of WC1 with a mouse, and joystick twist roll would only work with WC3+.

 

Would it be possible to play the original Wing Commanders or X-Wing/TIE Fighters with just a gamepad?

You'd need roll pitch yaw velocity, fire weapons/ missiles, change/ cycle target as minimum for the early WCs. Also comms, though that could be worked around most likely. For the later ones power management and the like would probably have to go though. So I'd say a qualified yes, but with the proviso that there's a reason real pilots use joysticks instead of gamepad equivalents, ie joysticks are just fundamentally better tools for the job.

[licketysplit]

Would it be possible to play the original Wing Commanders or X-Wing/TIE Fighters with just a gamepad?

 

Not ideal. Some control schemes are better for certain games. Playing Free Space 2 with a Joystick and keyboard is what got me hooked on the genre. Playing that game with a gamepad would just be, not fun. And i have no desire to play an X game with a gamepad. 

[alanschu]

I guess my usage of gamepads for many PC flight sims doesn't have them much different than my joystick  (i.e. I still use the keyboard at times).

Edited November 20, 2013 by alanschu

[licketysplit]

I guess my usage of gamepads for many PC flight sims doesn't have them much different than my joystick  (i.e. I still use the keyboard at times).

 

Gee, how did I know this was going to be your angle all along. X:Rebirth awaits you and your gamepad then.

[Keyrock]

A more arcadey type game focused solely on combat will likely work with a gamepad fairly well (I'd still rather have my flightstick personally), however a deep, hardcore space sim just has WAY too many functions to fit onto a gamepad.  You can map yaw and pitch to one analog stick, then strafing to the other, then roll to the shoulder buttons, thrust and retro rockets to the triggers, now you have 8 buttons left to work with (the 4 face buttons, the start and select buttons, and pressing down on each analog stick).  At the very least, you need to have fire weapon group, select next weapon group, fire missile, select missile, select closest enemy (this function doesn't exist in ANY form in X-Rebirth at the moment  ), that leaves you 1 button to play with for fleet commands (missing in X-Rebirth currently), wing commands (missing), communications, trade commands (missing), scanner options, navigation, boost/afterburner, SETA (if it existed in X-Rebirth), docking computer (missing), autopilot (missing), switch to turret, target next enemy, target previous enemy, etc. 

 

Edit:  I forgot you can map some stuff to the d-pad.  It's possible, it just will never complete or pretty.  Heck, even my HOTAS flightstick setup doesn't have enough to cover everything and I have to rely on the keyboard for some functions, but it does have enough buttons (about 20, I think) and axes to cover about 90% of my usual usage.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Keyrock

[alanschu]

 

I guess my usage of gamepads for many PC flight sims doesn't have them much different than my joystick  (i.e. I still use the keyboard at times).

 

Gee, how did I know this was going to be your angle all along. X:Rebirth awaits you and your gamepad then.

 

 

I rarely use a gamepad on my computer (I guess you predicted that too).  I have, however, used one in the past for Battlefield before I picked up a joystick.  I did so by primarily using only one hand on it and having it act as a flight stick with the right analog stick.

 

 

What I got by asking my question, however, is why the gamepad isn't acceptable.  X:Rebirth is already a game that isn't particularly interesting enough for me to pick up, and I doubt I'll be picking it up any time soon (as previously stated in this thread).

 

 

X3 didn't do it for me, while I was a big fan of X1 and X2.  I did map most of the game's controls to my Saitek Cyborg Evo Force for those games because I preferred to not use the keyboard if I could avoid it (especially for anything resembling close to the actual flying part of the game).  Maybe X3 wasn't for me because it was just trying to do too much compared to the other games?

 

I'm wondering if there's a differing definition of the term "hardcore space flight sim" however, since I would consider games like Wing Commander and TIE Fighter to be included and so forth to be applicable (the latter of which I played with a Sidewinder 3D Pro), and even using a controller with one hand is significantly better than playing Flight Simulator with the original Gravis Joystick.

 

Is the X series the new measuring stick for hardcore space flight sim and those older games simply the arcadey games?

 

I love the X Games for them basically being Privateer++ on some level, but it's combat model was always rather poor IMO compared to other space flight sim games that I was able to survive with without having nearly the amount of buttons available to me on one handed gamepad let alone something like the 3D Pro (though hell, most of my TIE FIghter experience came on a damn mouse).

[Keyrock]

I'm not exactly an authority, so certainly don't take my views as law, but I consider games like Wing Commander and Tie Fighter more toward the arcadey end of the spectrum (though great games to be sure).  To me a hardcore space sim is about more than just pew pew pew combat, it tries to simulate a universe and includes exploration, trading, possibly politics, and so on.  Of course, the term space sim to another person may mean as closely as possible simulating actual space flight (ala a flight simulator).  In that case the X games don't exactly fit the bill since their space flight physics model isn't exactly realistic.

[alanschu]

Fair enough.  TIE Fighter games (as well as games like Freespace, though I haven't played them too much) are definitely still games I consider hardcore space flight sims. (And I'd love love love for EA to give another TIE Fighter game a shot).

 

 

EDIT: Follow up:  What other games come close to X in terms of what it tries to do?

 

 

I never did play Elite, though Privateer games worked well enough (though I missed the mouse based flight system from WC1/2 over being forced to use the keyboard since I didn't have a joystick at the time).

Edited November 21, 2013 by alanschu

[Zoraptor]

I guess the success of Star Citizen may demonstrate there's still a market for space sims and a Star Wars one ought to be a good mark. I always wonder how Privateer Online would have gone if it hadn't been killed off, it's always seemed like such a natural fit and Eve seems to have been pretty successful...

 

I'm probably somewhat biased in that my main experience with a flight 'sim'/ gamepad combo was with what I found to be the utterly horrible GTA flight portions on a PS2- which I somewhat enjoyed (well, didn't actively loathe except that asterisking dweeb and his model chopper quest; I have to kill Tubbs in VC but can't pop a cap in him and his rival? There's no justice in the world) on PC using KB/M. I played Elite when it first came out using keyboard only and it was fine, at the time. But it was only roll pitch velocity, with yaw being an optional upgrade plus a few things you'd use occasionally like ECM iirc, so far from a complicated scheme and one that would easily translate to any other model.

 

The thought of trying to play something like an Independence War without my joystick does not, uh, fill my heart with joy.

[Keyrock]

So they finally got enough reviews for Metacritic to give them a score.

 

/drum roll

 

28/100

 

LOL, that's dangerously close to Leisure Suit Larry Box Office Bust territory, though still nowhere near Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing territory.  It's currently the 34th worst rated PC game ever on Metacritic.  Granted, I'm sure that score will change over time.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Keyrock

[Kissamies]

Heh, this popped up in my Steam a while ago. It looked like something I might like, but not knowing anything about it I decided to check Steam Community forums. Saw all the rage and decided to wait 6 months or so before checking again.

[Malcador]

The thought of trying to play something like an Independence War without my joystick does not, uh, fill my heart with joy.

 

I have tried.  It's not a good idea.

[obyknven]

Remind me, please, why we have today fantasy games about car's in the space (X Rebirth) instead  of  cool old sci-fi games about huge spaceships. 

[Mamoulian War]

Because EA killed off Origin

[obyknven]

Because EA killed off Origin

Origin make only fantasy games about WW2 naval battles in space  . Instead of this i talk about different type of games with sci-fi realistic starship's design: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starflight

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightspeed_(video_game)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Control_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protostar:_War_on_the_Frontier

 

[marelooke]

Because EA killed off Origin

Drat, and here I was thinking they killed off the Origin service, that would have been great news, alas...

[TrashMan]

So they finally got enough reviews for Metacritic to give them a score.

 

/drum roll

 

28/100

 

LOL, that's dangerously close to Leisure Suit Larry Box Office Bust territory, though still nowhere near Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing territory.  It's currently the 34th worst rated PC game ever on Metacritic.  Granted, I'm sure that score will change over time.

 

Meh.

Frak Metacritic.

 

We live in the age of whiny, self-entilted internet hate generation, where people think rating things a 0 or 1 as "punishment" for being dissapointed is OK. 

DNF, DA2 and similar are examples of average games being dragged trough the mud needlesly.

 

I don't trust the scores from random gamers anymore, since most of them are full-blown retards (IMHO), completley guided by emotions and knee-jerk reaction rather then thought.

[mute688]

 

So they finally got enough reviews for Metacritic to give them a score.

 

/drum roll

 

28/100

 

LOL, that's dangerously close to Leisure Suit Larry Box Office Bust territory, though still nowhere near Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing territory.  It's currently the 34th worst rated PC game ever on Metacritic.  Granted, I'm sure that score will change over time.

 

Meh.

Frak Metacritic.

 

We live in the age of whiny, self-entilted internet hate generation, where people think rating things a 0 or 1 as "punishment" for being dissapointed is OK. 

DNF, DA2 and similar are examples of average games being dragged trough the mud needlesly.

 

I don't trust the scores from random gamers anymore, since most of them are full-blown retards (IMHO), completley guided by emotions and knee-jerk reaction rather then thought.

 

The 28/100 is the critic score, not the user review.  The critic score is currently up to 33/100 while the user score is 3.3.