About hate-mail and other online abuse.

[smithereen]

Also, the difference is that people who are victims of this outside the internet usually don't get told to shut up and take it because "it's life".

 

Well, that plus the GID effect.

[LadyCrimson]

But, oh well, enforced civility is the rage these days.

I thought enforced civility was always the surface rage thing, outside of the occasional youth rebellion ... in the USA, at least. Couldn't even say those "seven words" on TV not that long ago. If anything, it's loosened up tremendously since I was a wee tot. Course, it's probably still too civil compared to some other countries culture, but oh well. There's still time before the Apocalypse.

 

...although, I tend to see "politically correct" as being something a fair bit different than civility. The former is used to try to fit in/try to make sure others like you - it's akin to peer pressure. The latter is to try to at least minimally get along with neighbors and strangers without actually killing each other over a parking space or making too much noise at 3am.

[pseudonymous]

I love these types of threads.  You'd think that in 2013 people would have read enough of them to realize that they aren't effective in changing the tone of any discussion anywhere on the internet... but here we are.

[Gromnir]

soooo...

 

am not quite sure we see a point.

 

anybody here think it is a good idea to threaten developers o' a game with violence?  email harassing o' artist or programmers is a good idea? anyone? am doubting any nutter who is gonna stalk a developer is gonna be dissuaded by a message-board appeal, but you get no argument from us that such behavior is bad. just kinda pointless to say so as all but crazies already agree and the real wackos is not gonna care if poster X observes that death threats is very rude. 

 

...

 

want us all to be nice to developers, is that it? 8 pages o'... whatever? doesn't seem to have an actual purpose. if we tells developers that they is so kewl they fart bose-einstein condensate, they will maybe make a better game? makes an over-the-top happy birthday poem to   _________ the programmer maybe sees us get additional info drops? hmmm. seems kinda sketchy. 

 

well okie dokie, am guessing we can do our part.

 

*Gromnir spreads arms wide and offers tim cain, and feargus urquhart a manly group hug*

 

all good?

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

*Gromnir spreads arms wide and offers tim cain, and feargus urquhart a manly group hug*

 

*Feargus and Cain cry out "He likes us. He really likes us!"

[pseudonymous]

A relevant Kevin Smith reference:

 

[KillerClowns]

I'm just gonna leave this here.

[GrinningReaper659]

I'm just gonna leave this here.

Well, I almost stopped reading at this point:

 

"How many times have you seen a website say 'We're not responsible for the content of our comments.'? I know that when you webmasters put that up on your sites, you're trying to address your legal obligation. Well, let me tell you about your moral obligation: Hell yes, you are responsible. You absolutely are. When people are saying ruinously cruel things about each other, and you're the person who made it possible, it's 100% your fault. If you aren't willing to be a grown-up about that, then that's okay, but you're not ready to have a web business. Businesses that run cruise ships have to buy life preservers. Companies that sell alcohol have to keep it away from kids. And people who make communities on the web have to moderate them."

 

This is outright ridiculous, the comparisons here aren't equivalent in any way. Yes, those that run cruise ships are obligated to buy life preservers to save the lives of the passengers and crew in case of a disaster; they are not, however, held morally or legally responsible for some random horrible sh*t said by some idiots shouting death threats from the dock, or held responsible for the things said by their passengers for that matter. I understand that the point is that people should have a way of controlling comments on websites, but in many cases on forums and comments sections, it can be extremely difficult to control communication without destroying it (especially in the extreme cases being talked about here). My point is that those that run a cruise ship can't control what their passengers say any more than a person with a blog can attempt to control an onslaught of hateful speech overwhelming their comments section.

 

Some (idealistically) decent points were eventually made. What it comes down to, though, in the cases such as those discussed in this thread, is: "don't allow comments." There's no number of bans or moderators that could stop some of these aggressive attacks that cover many, many pages of comments.

 

Additionally, the author eventually makes one reasonable point concerning the blame being placed upon the head of those running the site. When the hatred of comments is being used by those that run the site for publicity in the vein of "all press is good press," then yes, I would say that using something ethically reprehensible for personal gain is itself at least ethically dubious. However, it still doesn't make those that run the site morally responsible for the words and actions of others.

Edited August 26, 2013 by GrinningReaper659

[PrimeJunta]

Just my dime's worth – in my experience, social reinforcement works much better than top-down policing.

 

Put another way, be the culture you want to see, reinforce (=make visible) your support for other individuals who are the culture you want to see, don't be the culture you don't want to see, and discourage (=call out) the culture you don't want to see. It takes time but behavior does shift. Sometimes it shifts in directions you like, sometimes it doesn't, but in an environment about the size of, oh, the Obsidian fan forums, all it takes is a half-dozen determined but patient individuals to make a big shift in the culture.

 

There will always be a few individuals who make a point of making a nuisance of themselves, and some policing/moderation will (probably) be needed for that.

 

(What kind of culture would I like to see? Well, for starters, I'd like to see strong, vocal, and near-unanimous social disapproval of, say, someone saying they'll rape your kids because they didn't like the game you worked on. There's critique and then there's douchebaggery; the former is necessary, the latter is a nuisance.)

[Hiro Protagonist II]

...wow...good thing these bleedin' hearts wasna 'round on the ol' BIS boards, they'd 'ave been scarred fer Life...lads that work at Obsidz has thick skins, they can handle a bit o' shyte-slingin'...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

 

 

Yeah, the BIS boards were definitely one of those times we can't forget. Mostly good times though. I remember when Fallout BOS was announced. Definitely a milestone for the board. And the lets just say 'criticism' over IWD 2. The lack of kewl phat loot, the mess that is the Fell Woods, the slow downs with the game, and on and on it went. And who could ever forget Ye Olde Political forum. Some good debates there.

 

I'm just waiting on the next similar white knight thread to grace us.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist II

[TrashMan]

Death threats and getting overly emotional are stupid - no question about it.

99% of death threats are just expressions, jokes and can be easily ignored. But there are those 1% made by unstable fanatics....

 

 

The unfortunate part of being a public figure and talking to thousands is...well, you are talking to thousands. There WILL be people who will not like what yo usay, regardless of what you say.

You cannot forbid them to think negative, nor can you really forbid them to express it. That in itself is wrong.

 

HOWEVER, good thing about forums and e-mails is that you can ignore/block trash.

 

 

[philosophical rant]

Ultimatively, I can't say I see a solution for this "online abuse" ... because pretty much anything humans do on a regualr basis could be classified as abuse. After all, scolding someone and trying to pressure him into changing his behavior for the "better" by making him feel bad is in reality no different than that person making you feel bad by saying something you don't like.

 

As long as humans try to force eachother to change, eider by phsical or psychological pressure, nothing will ever change. And humans always do it. All the time.

 

[/end rant]

[KillerClowns]

 

I'm just gonna leave this here.

This article is out right ridiculous.

This guy only resolution is having more police/moderators to enforce civil behavior? 

Is that Germany '39? I would take a good close look on that guy, as he is prone to follow Hitler/Stalin/Mussolini/Mao road.

 

"As it turns out, we have a way to prevent gangs of humans from acting like savage packs of animals. In fact, we've developed entire disciplines based around this goal over thousands of years."

Yes, we developed a whole bunch of preventing disciplines. This guy claims they are effective, looking at the riots in Greece, USA, France, Russia, Poland etc. they are clearly not. 

Moderating comments is not a method of preventing hateful and uncivil comments, it's a way of dealing with them. A very bad way, because the same flaws apply to real life police and moderators. They are recruited from the same people that are prone to misbehave, so you have to have another group to control the controllers and so on. That's why we have corrupted cops, criminal cops and so on. That's why moderators are often the ones being attacked most often.

 

So sum it up, this article is fascist beyond comprehension. 

 

 Wow, that's a lot of butthurt over an article. With a side of Godwin's Law to boot! 

 

...then again, that's really why I posted the article. I don't agree entirely with it -- though it makes some legitimate points, I think PrimeJunta has it right when he says social pressure is a much better solution, albeit one that will take longer. And yeah, noting what TrashMan said, I too reserve the right to be a jackhole when I feel people have it coming. Maybe that makes me no better than other trolls.

 

I just figured watching people bitch and moan when they realize that a bunch of dudes in suits could take away the right to be a jackhole on the internet would be funny.

Edited August 26, 2013 by KillerClowns

[Malcador]

I thought enforced civility was always the surface rage thing, outside of the occasional youth rebellion ... in the USA, at least. Couldn't even say those "seven words" on TV not that long ago. If anything, it's loosened up tremendously since I was a wee tot. Course, it's probably still too civil compared to some other countries culture, but oh well. There's still time before the Apocalypse.

 

...although, I tend to see "politically correct" as being something a fair bit different than civility. The former is used to try to fit in/try to make sure others like you - it's akin to peer pressure. The latter is to try to at least minimally get along with neighbors and strangers without actually killing each other over a parking space or making too much noise at 3am.

Well meant online where it's a lot looser than the real world due to varying reasons. Then again the real world is a lot worse than I recall or seem to, then again maybe people in my city are just giant jerks.

[Agremont]

"White knights", "bleedin' hearts"...

 

Very telling. Nice...

[Sargallath Abraxium]

"White knights", "bleedin' hearts"...

 

Very telling. Nice...

...OK, this be gettin' sad...y'all needs ta hike up yer skirts an' realize there be one helluva difference 'tween a bit o' shyte-slingin' 'bout game design an' such compared ta actual verbal harrassment...no one 'ere be tellin' devs that we's rapin' theys wives or throwin' kids off bridges or any such foolishness...sky ain't fallin' 'ere, save the Chicken Little routines...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Agremont]

 

"White knights", "bleedin' hearts"...

 

Very telling. Nice...

...OK, this be gettin' sad...y'all needs ta hike up yer skirts an' realize there be one helluva difference 'tween a bit o' shyte-slingin' 'bout game design an' such compared ta actual verbal harrassment...no one 'ere be tellin' devs that we's rapin' theys wives or throwin' kids off bridges or any such foolishness...sky ain't fallin' 'ere, save the Chicken Little routines...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

 

 

I agree. But the sad thing is that people throw those phrases about even for people speaking up against abuse.

 

I'm not advocating sugar coating everything you say. But any discussion about abuse gets filled with phrases like that, and I'm not necessarily talking about this thread here. It is telling.

 

I can understand if some people can't be bothered caring, but what I can't understand are people getting on the offensive towards people who do care.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Agremont

[Amentep]

 I remember when Fallout BOS was announced. Definitely a milestone for the board.

 

 

Not really a fun weekend for those who were mods at the time. 

[Gromnir]

The Church o' Cain were filled with righteous indignation over Interplay's unforgivable sacrilege : development of a fallout action game for consoles.

 

*scratches head*

 

am, to this day, baffled by the reaction. sure, we thinks that most regular codexian/nma posters gots a screw loose, but the vitriol over bos were, to our mind, pointless. nobody were gonna force minions o' cain to buy and play bos. resources going into making bos were not making a pc fo3 less likely. as far as we know, cain had not spoken outta a discarded burning sofa left on streets o' irvine to exhort the faithful to rise up and cast off the shackles o' interplay tyranny. mere existence o' bos inflamed the church to a ridiculous degree.  

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, to stay on-topic, we will note that every game development board has got those posters who is self-appointing themselves as the stalwart defenders o' developer honor. they sacrifice their own dignity to protect developers who has been insulted or attacked. if proper amount of deference is not shown to a developer, the stalwart defenders will step forth and lash the offender with a fiery rebuke. is kinda cute.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 26, 2013 by Gromnir

[Leferd]

Ahh yes, the known entity that is Cavelierus Albinus.

[Felonious]

Not to stray off-topic, but does this Board have a problem with "Trolls"?  Compared to other Message Boards that I have frequented over the years, the Obsidian boards actually seem rather tame.

[Amentep]

I don't think this board has a problem with trolls; the mod team is usually pretty on top of things IMO.

[TrashMan]

 

 

I agree. But the sad thing is that people throw those phrases about even for people speaking up against abuse.

 

I'm not advocating sugar coating everything you say. But any discussion about abuse gets filled with phrases like that, and I'm not necessarily talking about this thread here. It is telling.

 

I can understand if some people can't be bothered caring, but what I can't understand are people getting on the offensive towards people who do care.

 

 

If I were to hazzard a guess as to why, it would probably be because many of the people who "care" are a kind of extremist/fascist in their own way.

 

You will always get resistance. Always. Even agaisnt agood ideas if they are delivered badly. It is compeltely human to agree with someone and STILL go to war with him simply because you don't liek him for reason Y. Unfortunately.

[Agremont]

If I were to hazzard a guess as to why, it would probably be because many of the people who "care" are a kind of extremist/fascist in their own way.

 

You will always get resistance. Always. Even agaisnt agood ideas if they are delivered badly. It is compeltely human to agree with someone and STILL go to war with him simply because you don't liek him for reason Y. Unfortunately.

 

 

Yes there's people like that, but  I'd say they're nowhere near as common as it would seem considering the response the topic gets.

 

I'm guessing it's the old issue of people focusing on the extremes...

[Amentep]

Our Valued Customer (web comic based on things said by actual people in a comic store) has a few interesting customers related to this -

 

http://ourvaluedcustomers.blogspot.com/2013/06/on-social-networking.html

 

http://ourvaluedcustomers.blogspot.com/2013/05/while-describing-recent-online.html

 

http://ourvaluedcustomers.blogspot.com/2013/06/to-his-girlfriend.html

[Fluffle]

So after a long time of abstinence I came back to this forum.

 

The strongold update brought me back and I wanted to make a few points.

 

I am shocked how my points and those of a few others led to the derail of that thread.

 

That was not my intention.

 

I will enjoy the stronghold and I'm very much looking for it, but I wanted to try to see the other side.

 

Those people who are reluctant about the idea of a stronghold. And I tried to understand

and illustrate some concerns they might have. And I actually can see their concerns even though

personally I won't share them as I am going to use the stronghold.

 

I am sad and sorry that that debate went the way it did.

In my eyes it was not a real debate, because the participants lack respect for each other.

 

I even think that some people try deliberately to misunderstand/misinterprete the posts of other people.

 

I have seen a VERY good signature of one of the members (the OP) here:

"Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for."

 

I will sincerely ask myself if I have heeded the advise of that signature.

 

Now I will go "underground" again, avoiding debates here, just checking in for updates.

Maybe take a break for a few months again.

 

I don't wish anyone ill here as I hope nobody wishes me ill.

 

Peace.