More Mega-Dungeon Discussion.

[Monte Carlo]

I keep coming back to IceWind Dale. It nailed the whole dungeon experience for me.

[Tuckey]

What about the ancient equivalent of a underground city meant to house an ancient king and his retinue? Like the first chinese emperor he was interred with his terracota soldiers and when the time came he would rise again to rule the world. The city would be filled with traps and the engineers that built it were buried with him to ensure that their knowledge would not be passed on to grave-robbers. That city would perhaps house a monument to the king like a giant statue of his likeness; (see 15 level dungeon pic) this statue perhaps would be the intended vessel for his spirit when he returns from the land of the dead. But some of his servants rebelled on him and issued instructions to chain the statue-likeness so that he could not rise. However the chains have weakened and you have been sent to stop him.

[JFSOCC]

or help him.

[Sir Roderick Amplepole]

If I am to venture within this dungeon you speak of I have several demands that I shall not relinquish.

 

1. It must be challenging. If I am not losing at least one of my Orlans per level then I will feel quite the fool in making that bulk purchase in New Heomar. Indeed, an Orlan bewteen one's saddle and buttocks can provide comfort on long journeys but I have enough to get me from Girrar to New Yarma thrice over without a single blister. And have you ever tried to keep a secret from an Orlan? I discretely broke wind whilst bathing at Maiden Falls and somehow they heard. Travelling with them has been trying.

 

2. Clever puzzles. Too many times I have braved the ruins of some long forgotten temple only to find a set of levers; a narrow, arrowslit lined hall; and a band of buffoons emerging from an open doorway holding a rod of resurrection and sacks of loot. It's quite exhausting toiling all night long and come morning be left with an empty sack.

 

3. Unique items and artefacts. I am currently in need of a new longsword. "Spittle" my +2 1D6 acid enchanted longsword has rusted. I had only to speak my terms and foes would cower with such a weapon by my side. I do not want to replace it with some feeble blade endowed with some minor enchantment by some incompetent apprentice who most probably turned himself to ash at his subsequent trial.

 

Onwards to adventure!

[curryinahurry]

Content and level design isn't a big concern for me considering that these are essentially the ‘same guys that designed IWD and IWD 2. Also from what we’ve seen of the concept art, I think they will get the feel right. 

 

Mostly, I want the design of the levels to make sense; upper levels should be the most heavily trafficked and populated, and there should be a transition from those areas to the deeper reaches.  Levels should reflect this transition and give hints as to what may lay ahead for the party.  I also want the lowest levels of the Old Paths to feel really alien and to encounter creatures that are not to be encountered anywhere else in the game.

 

The things mentioned by other posters in this thread regarding cults, adventuring parties, etc. are all great.  I would prefer not to encounter another “civilization” or army, as I prefer the idea of descending into a subterranean wilderness.  Maybe small communities (or cults having communities) or the ruins of attempted settlements would be fine.

 

One thing I would like in terms of level design is for the Old Paths to be vertically sectioned as well as the traditional horizontal sectioning we typically see in games.  That is, we may descend to the 7^th level and discover a cave-in, but no access to what lies beyond.  Our party then goes down a few more levels and finds a passage that then opens up to a new section that then allows us to go back up to the cave-in point, but on the other side.  This would be a great way to control areas for access and give the sense of non-linear exploration.

[betelges]

about dungeons i can say, when i played BG & Company, a sense of oppression and stress if they were too long and large, especially if u had to finish them before seeing again sun light ) ok ok maybe i'm a little too druid connected, just like Jaheria )))

so, the word MEGA-dungeon really scary me!

i hink it s not so easy calibrate the tension, before the player getting tired....best thing would be give the right rhythm

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

Well, in my opinion, the dungeons story could progress in kind of a dual-arc. For example, the first "half" would be about the (near)surface level structures, telling the story of the people who built it, lived in it and all that. And the second "half" about their discovery about the earlier structure below them(the statue and what-not shown in the kickstarter page) and about their journey(and possibly death) to it. But anyway, some sort of a two-part or parallel stories. 

 

And what comes to monsters and their plausibility to live, I think that a representation of their possibility to live needs to be shown, either by having something like edible mushrooms on the walls and corners or some such, and/or having monsters that don't actually need anything to live with, like golems or the like. Preferably both.

 

As for treasure and traps, I hope to see both in abundance, and treasure hopefully in treasuries(aside loot of course), and so that there could even be two in the dungeon, one on the top structure while the other links with the lower one. And traps? Everywhere I say! As long as it makes sense though, and it is explained why the traps are there, if the scenario is some other than a big big chest filled with gold that needs protection.

 

Then we come to the appeal of the dungeon. I'm holding my thumbs up for versatile environment, I'd say roughly 3 levels of  verysimilar appearance max? Or 5, but a relatively small number anyway. And small aesthetic differences work miracles when customizing dull stone walls, like overgrown level versus and badly damaged one(burned, for example). That way they'd be similar, but still different.

 

And as a final thought, I think that preparing should be important, in the ways of actually bringing rope and other useful adventuring thingies to overcome gorges and cliffs and slimy upward walls that the dungeon throws at the player.

[Tuckey]

I like the rope suggestion particularly; not enough rpgs have used ropes to access areas; like fallout 2 elevator shaft

[Woldan]

I hope we're going to get really deep dungeons with that Jule Verne -ish vibe to them, lots of exploration of the strange environment that gets increasingly alien the deeper you get.

I want to see strange crystal structures, florescent plants, extremely rare herbs, small passages the group has to squeeze through with the occasional huge cavern.....
Like a more extreme version of the Underdark in Icewind Dale 2.

Oh, and I want to see LOTS of florescent crystals / plants so I never have to see dungeons no adventurer has set a foot in in centuries lit up with big convenient torches everywhere, again. Or extremely bright ambient lighting that comes from nowhere. Surely the devs will come up with a clever plausible combination of natural light sources. 

Edited July 29, 2013 by Woldan

[curryinahurry]

+1 for rope!  Also, oils, poles, lamps, etc.  ... in our packs, not stash.  If consumables are in the game as anticipated, they should factor into exploration so that running out of a resource could present a danger when contemplating moving deeper.

 

Also, skills like metallurgy, stonecraft, herbalism, could all be put to good use during exploration if they are in the game.  As could knowledge of certain languages , lore, or arcane knowledge while trying to decipher runes, way-points, or even pictograms/ cave graffiti.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Kraken or GTFO.

[Jarmo]

I just hope the whole thing is optional and skippable. Long and deep dungeons are just depressing.

I'm always happy to reach the end and alway sad to see there's yet another "stairs down".

 

If there's good loot and XP rewards, guess I'll have to drudge through,

especially if the endgame difficulty is based on the assumption that I did.

[BruceVC]

I just hope the whole thing is optional and skippable. Long and deep dungeons are just depressing.

 

Wow that's not a comment I would expect from you Jarmo, exploring complex dungeons is a cornerstone of almost fantasy RPG like D&D

 

 

If you don't like multi-levelled dungeons what do you enjoy exploring?

[Morgulon the Wise]

What about the ancient equivalent of a underground city meant to house an ancient king and his retinue? Like the first chinese emperor he was interred with his terracota soldiers and when the time came he would rise again to rule the world. The city would be filled with traps and the engineers that built it were buried with him to ensure that their knowledge would not be passed on to grave-robbers. That city would perhaps house a monument to the king like a giant statue of his likeness; (see 15 level dungeon pic) this statue perhaps would be the intended vessel for his spirit when he returns from the land of the dead. But some of his servants rebelled on him and issued instructions to chain the statue-likeness so that he could not rise. However the chains have weakened and you have been sent to stop him.

 

Sounds like Kresselack in IWD 1.

 

I would really like to see many factions of dungeon keepers having war against each other constantly (No exp for killing is quite awesome in the context of respawning enemies ^^). If enemies like Kresselack in IWD1 and the priests of Auril in IWD2 would be fighting all the time in some area with maybe 3 dungeons (2 HQ and at least 1 place both want to conquer besides extinguishing the enemy would be great) it would perfectly hit my intent.

 

I didn't like the fight between the druegar and the monks in IWD2 because it was too linear in which way you encountered them. i would like to see the war first and then seek out for one of their HQs.

 

 

what about and underworld like in might and magic several lvls to like underneath the world map is  a huge complex cave system with multiple entrances to the first levels of it.

 

Many layers of vast dungeons upon each other and linked in many spots might be difficult and costly to design, but for a battlegrund this would be soo goood...

Edited July 29, 2013 by Morgulon the Wise

[motorizer]

I just hope the whole thing is optional and skippable. Long and deep dungeons are just depressing.

I'm hoping it's interesting enough that people won't want to skip it, or piss off out to the shops half way through....

I'd be a bit disappointed if it's 15 levels of dark rooms stuffed with monsters.

 

I think it will be optional though, in fact I think they've already said that it is, but I'm not going to spend hours looking for a quote.

 

In a way i hope the rewards aren't that massive, as that makes it difficult to balance the end game for those who've done the whole thing versus those who haven't touched it

 

A compelling story is what it needs....rather than just being an extended looting session

 

 

 

On another note...it's another +1 from me for ropes, lanterns and  other exploring equipment.

[Jarmo]

 

I just hope the whole thing is optional and skippable. Long and deep dungeons are just depressing.

 

Wow that's not a comment I would expect from you Jarmo, exploring complex dungeons is a cornerstone of almost fantasy RPG like D&D

 

 

If you don't like multi-levelled dungeons what do you enjoy exploring?

 

 

I'm not that much into all common rpg tropes. Say BG2, I liked it best when in the city.

Villages, reasonable non-empty outdoor areas, locations like dungeons and such are fine but less so when they're built in level1->level2->level3 style.

 

Say you come into an abandoned fort.

 

I'd expect there to be the walls and gatehouse then courtyard. The main building would have some kind of entrance and then the "main room".

On the sides few other rooms, maybe second level living quarters and a cellar. If we meet a boss enemy, that'd likely be in the main room or cellar if it's some giant-spider bugger.

 

I wouldn't like to see the fort built in game style. Entrance, 1st level populated by weak enemies. 2nd level by some other enemies. 3rd level by undead. 4th level (the throne room in some deep low damp dungeon) where the main evilboss lives. All corridors and doors fully trapped up so the monsters living there couldn't possibly move around at all. Add a few levels if the game playthrough time is a bit too low.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Jarmo

[Tuckey]

"In a way i hope the rewards aren't that massive, as that makes it difficult to balance the end game for those who've done the whole thing versus those who haven't touched it"

 

@motorizer I can appreciate where your coming from, but there is only so much you can do. In bg2 there was late game loot you could buy from the adventurers mart if you didn't pick up good enough gear in the underdark + various side quests. Beyond that through you risk balancing the risk/reward mechanic to something meaningless for the player who is going to say 'meh why bother doing the dungeon?'; why bother if its not interesting and doesn't advance your party in anyway? I'm sure the dungeon will be interesting but I appreciate the scale of the problem that obsidian has set itself - this dungeon is truly huge.

 

I mean there's no sense applying some false sense of balance for people who don't want to do it. At a certain point it becomes unfair to people who expect reward for adventuring. It's chicken little otherwise; everyone wants a slice of the pie regardless of whether or not they've earned it in terms of doing those dungeons. Perhaps obsidian can split up the 15 level dungeon somehow so its not such a massive grind; I think that is the biggest challenge.

 

Maybe 5 levels can be accessed in one location, while another 5 levels require some sort of portal stone, which you can only acquire some point later in the game. etc

 

At least that way there is pacing so the dungeon won't drag.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Tuckey

[motorizer]

My point is basically that i'd rather the dungeon had it's own interesting and involving storyline rather than just being a place to level up and get loot

I do think the 5 levels from one location and then a portal stone somewhere else goes back to what I was saying earlier, it would make it basically 3 or 4 dungeons rather than the attained stretch goal of one mega dungeon

 

I don't want it to be a grind, I want it to be a separate adventure from the main plot, a game within a game...there are entire games set in one dungeon...and not all of them are grinds

there could be towns of dungeon dwellers with their own shops and economies, and their own quests and adventures...

 

Fair enough have entrances and exits...if you can find them...maybe you'll have to make your own.

but don't split the thing up...it was a stretch goal after all, as with crafting it seems that people paid up for a stretch goal, and then after some thought, decided they didn't really want it...

Edited July 29, 2013 by motorizer

[curryinahurry]

@ Motorizer

 

While I sympathize with your position; I too would love to try and take on the whole dungeon in one shot, I don't see how Obsidian can allow a straight run without either completely screwing up game balance or watering down the experience (both in terms on xp points and exploration).  

 

One question for you is would you be okay with choke points ( a trap or a puzzle) that were only passable with items that had to be sought out in the outside world?  This might mean that the party would have to leave the dungeon in order to find the object or research the puzzle (maybe it's in a dead language).  Or possibly there is a type of energy trap that teleports you out of the dungeon, so to get past the trap, yocu have to find an expert in that type of energy or soul magic who is only available by freeing him or her from a prison that is also part of the main quest.

 

I ask because, I'm curious how Obsidian is going to make the dungeon plot-involved and how they plan to break it up so that people who want to do it in one pass can enjoy it that way.

 

Of course, the easiest way to implement this is to make the entire dungeon part of the end-game with levels that can be entirely or mostly skipped, (as I pointed out in the post I made about the dungeon having branching levels in vertical section), but I'm not sure that is the way Obsidian will approach the problem.

Edited July 29, 2013 by curryinahurry

[motorizer]

I'll be okay however they do it, I'm just stating my preference, if it turn out different I'm not going to wail and gnash my teeth, but as I said earlier if you can go out there needs to be a compelling reason for your character to go back in, regardless of their class and motivation (which would be different for each character, a nature loving druid isn't going to go in in pursuit of treasure, an amoral thief isn't going to go in to rescue someones lost dog...) so it would have to pose a threat or something. maybe you wake something up in there that you shouldn't have done...

 

There is always going to be a way to screw up balance in one area by doing all the stuff somewhere else first, that's the nature of an open map, and the only way around it is elder scrolls style levelled enemies

 

Maybe you can do it in one shot, but not if you go in at level 1 or 2 I dunno...

Edited July 29, 2013 by motorizer

[SophosTheWise]

What I want in a dungeon:

 

1.) A sense of the size of the dungeon and a sense of adventure. Especially when it's called a "mega dungeon" I don't want any sort of "fast travel" or anything that shortens my exploration experience. I remember for example the firewine bridge in BG 1 that sounded awesome (well, according to that bard at least) but in reality it was just a slightly bigger cellar.  I want to feel lost, in the depths, maybe without possibility to ever return to the surface. If it's a dungeon that noone has returned from, I want the game to replicate that feeling. That's what a dungeon should feel like. Do you remember in Skyrim where you had to "climb that mountain with a bazillion steps"? That was BAD. Nice idea, but bad execution. If that was really a gigantic mountain that no one has ever climbed I want to ascend that mountain in more than 10 minutes. It has to be a 7 hour quest then.

 

2.) I don't want dungeons to simply be slightly intricate basements with enemys and traps for no reason. Every trap and enemy should have reasons to exist other than killing incoming players as if they were The Dungeon Staff Inc. If there's an old statue of a forgotton God and he has giant gem as eyes, let me take them (with consequences like curses, a trap or whatever) and he has those Gem eyes because maybe the worshippers of that deity believed that inside glittering stones lies the soul of the God - and because Goblins like shiny things there's a lot of Goblins in that area, trying to find other statues (since the aforementioned statue has killed a lot of Goblins with whatever means available to the staute). That was a bit of rambling, but tl;dr: I want things to have a reason to exist, I want causality.

 

3.) Indiana Jones. Make it in the style of Indiana Jones. Not always those boring traps we're used to see. Creativity, people. Also: traps not only in the context of "if you step on it, you'll take damage" - maybe also a trap that releases a monster four levels deeper that otherwise wouldn't be there.

 

4.) Consistency. Don't make the mega dungeon 15 levels of stacked individual dungeons. The mega-dungeon has to be consistent, it has to have a real reason to exist and still offer a wide variety of things, so we don't get bored with it too fast.

[motorizer]

What I want in a dungeon:

 

1.) A sense of the size of the dungeon and a sense of adventure. Especially when it's called a "mega dungeon" I don't want any sort of "fast travel" or anything that shortens my exploration experience. I remember for example the firewine bridge in BG 1 that sounded awesome (well, according to that bard at least) but in reality it was just a slightly bigger cellar.  I want to feel lost, in the depths, maybe without possibility to ever return to the surface. If it's a dungeon that noone has returned from, I want the game to replicate that feeling. That's what a dungeon should feel like. Do you remember in Skyrim where you had to "climb that mountain with a bazillion steps"? That was BAD. Nice idea, but bad execution. If that was really a gigantic mountain that no one has ever climbed I want to ascend that mountain in more than 10 minutes. It has to be a 7 hour quest then.

 

This is kind of what I was getting at...I havent been lost in a dungeon since daggerfall in 1996 (then I really was lost) they always feel like you can just nip out at any time

[Gfted1]

1) I want fast travel portals on every floor so I don't have to hump up 15 levels to rest.

2) Epic loot and don't be shy dishing it out. Preferably including some item that allows travel from where I was, back to town, then back to where I was. Think D3's portal. This is a carryable item and is different from the static fast travel portals described above. Also should include some mysterious gizmo that allows healing without resting.

3) Megaboss on the last floor.

4) Maybe some puzzles but nothing I have to lookup the answer too.

5) A lever on the first floor that enables kill XP.

[Monte Carlo]

I thought there was kill XP, just limited. Or has Sawyer snuck pure quest XP back in?

[SophosTheWise]

1) I want fast travel portals on every floor so I don't have to hump up 15 levels to rest.

2) Epic loot and don't be shy dishing it out. Preferably including some item that allows travel from where I was, back to town, then back to where I was. Think D3's portal. This is a carryable item and is different from the static fast travel portals described above. Also should include some mysterious gizmo that allows healing without resting.

3) Megaboss on the last floor.

4) Maybe some puzzles but nothing I have to lookup the answer too.

5) A lever on the first floor that enables kill XP.

 

1.) Please no. A Megadungeon should be a mega-dungeon, not a playground for loot-fanatics and XP-messies.

2.) Epic lot yes, but please don't give it away like candy. That destroys the value of finding something awesome, also it probably destroys any background the "loot" has. Also D3s portal NO, GOD, PLEASE NO! NO! NOOOOO!

3.) I can live with that.

4.) You don't have to look up anything, you have to simply think. It's been ages since I've had to solve any remotely interesting puzzle.

5.) NO.