Dream & dread: Your hopes and fears for PE

[IndiraLightfoot]

For every update, my appetite for PE is whetted even more. I start dreaming of endless adventures, joyful character creation and fun and varied gameplay. But sometimes nightmares darken my dreams. Then I fear that PE will have pitfalls that will get me bored or disappointed. Thus, this thread!

 

Here I will vent some of my hopes and fears for PE, and so can you. And regardless of the things I dread here, I am pretty confident that OEI will avoid most of them, or at least ameliorate such shortcomings cleverly.

 

Dreaming about:

-Character creation with lots of choices right off the bat

-Character development that widens the scope of choices even more

-Great stories and lore, difficult social and moral choices and dilemmas

-Moody music, as well as fantastic art and area design

-Memorable NPCs

-Rewarding exploration - lots of twists and turns and fantastic surprises

-Challenging combat and/or sneaking, with a nice pace and strategy to it

-Unexpected traps, and not just basic tripwires and such

-A great variety of monsters and adversaries that still follow ecologies and socio-economic contexts

-Encounters on maps that are just as varied and context-bound

-A reasonably generous freedom to explore maps and dungeons in a number of different orders

-No hand-holding and obvious pointers to be seen

-Slow levelling, shortage of money and magic items

-Interesting loot, and perhaps some of it will be different on each playthrough

 

 

Dreading:

-Bare-bone character creation with far too few choices, stats that don't really matter (D3)

-Classes that narrow into pipelines as you level up

-A few great choices, the rest is just whimsical story fluff (Kingdoms of Amalur)

-A few apparent main quests (DAO - shiver!)

-A game where railroading is the norm (DS3)

-Music as mere variation on almost the same theme (lots of games)

-Too much tunes and too little atmosphere. Sound effects should shine too

-Having a few NPCs forced into the party (NWN2)

-Too repetitive dungeons and quests

-Combat feels like a chore, an annoying hurdle to jump before next quest event 

-Map A, monster 1, 2 and 3 - Map B, monster 4, 5 and 6 - Map C, monster 7, 8 and 9...

-Hordes of mindless critters

-Levels fly by and you are swimming in money, Uncle Scrooge-style

-Too much loot, and a lot of it is meaningless and takes up to much invo space

Edited July 11, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Malekith]

For every update, my appetite for PE is whetted even more. I start dreaming of endless adventures, joyful character creation and fun and varied gameplay. But sometimes nightmares darken my dreams. Then I fear that PE will have pitfalls that will get me bored or disappointed. Thus, this thread!

 

Here I will vent some of my hopes and fears for PE, and so can you. And regardless of the things I dread here, I am pretty confident that OEI will avoid most of them, or at least ameliorate such shortcomings cleverly.

 

Dreaming about:

-Character creation with lots of choices right off the bat

-Character development that widens the scope of choices even more

-Great stories and lore, difficult social and moral choices and dilemmas

-Moody music, as well as fantastic art and area design

-Memorable NPCs

-Rewarding exploration - lots of twists and turns and fantastic surprises

-Challenging combat and/or sneaking, with a nice pace and strategy to it

-Unexpected traps, and not just basic tripwires and such

-A great variety of monsters and adversaries that still follow ecologies and socio-economic contexts

-Encounters on maps that are just as varied and context-bound

-A reasonably generous freedom to explore maps and dungeons in a number of different orders

-No hand-holding and obvious pointers to be seen

-Slow levelling, shortage of money and magic items

-Interesting loot, and perhaps some of it will be different on each playthrough

 

 

Dreading:

-Bare-bone character creation with far too few choices, stats that don't really matter (D3)

-Classes that narrow into pipelines as you level up

-A few great choices, the rest is just whimsical story fluff (Kingdoms of Amalur)

-A few apparent main quests (DAO - shiver!)

-A game where railroading is the norm (DS3)

-Music as mere variation on almost the same theme (lots of games)

-Too much tunes and too little atmosphere. Sound effects should shine too

-Having a few NPCs forced into the party (NWN2)

-Too repetitive dungeons and quests

-Combat feels like a chore, an annoying hurdle to jump before next quest event 

-Map A, monster 1, 2 and 3 - Map B, monster 4, 5 and 6 - Map C, monster 7, 8 and 9...

-Hordes of mindless critters

-Levels fly by and you are swimming in money, Uncle Scrooge-style

-Too much loot, and a lot of it is meaningless and takes up to much invo space

-Handplaced loot everywhere, soon you know the content of each chest by heart

Completely agrre with all except the last part. I expect and hope the game to have handplaced loot. Randomized loot is a concept that needs to die outside of Diablo style A-RPGs.

IWD2 was the only IE game with a significant portion of randomized loot and it was the worse for it.

Also i don't get the complain that soon you will know the content of each place by memory. First of all, why is this a bad thing?

Second, for you to be able to memorize the items of an entire game you must have replayed it at least 3+ times. By that point the game has done his job to be replayable, there is no point to worry   " what must we do for the poor player that has played the game seven 10  times, there is nothing more to surprise him."

Edited July 11, 2013 by Malekith

[IndiraLightfoot]

I agree. Your argument is rock solid on that! In fact, I agree so much that I'll remove that point on the list.

Edited July 11, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Archmage Silver]

RE: Random vs. static loot. Icewind Dale used both static loot and loot lists, I think it's the best system myself. Note that all the items on the loot lists were handmade.

 

Dream:

Obsidian completes the game on schedule

Obsidian carries out their vision for the game

 

Dread:

jRPG influenced equipment

Bad voice acting

Obsidian hires Tim Schafer as a financial consultant

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Dread:

 

Obsidian hires Tim Schafer as a financial consultant

      Or Curt Schilling!

[JFSOCC]

Excellent thread IndiraLightfoot!

 

Dreams

Dynamic content heavy cities with a ton of factions and exclusive content for all factions.

Dynamic stronghold which plays an integral part in the story, not just a project off on the side.

Weapons and Gear you can personalise (using crafting) to fit your playstyle.

Diverse challenges with many different approaches to solving them (not all equal).

Enemies/Monsters with (diverse) signature skills and tactics, so you know what to expect when you encounter another of the same type.

Hidden doors and secret tunnels.

Best gear available in large cities, not a small town near the end of the game.

Save-game exporting so in the sequel I can continue with my character, not just her levels and skills.

Narrative conveyed through level design and artwork as much as text. (you'd be surprised how much you can learn from seeing a head on a spike, on each spike along a perimeter, no?)

Seeing even one of my suggestions make it into the game.

Factions which you can influence the nature of.

The ability to smack some sense into people talking down to me.

Factions which remain relevant throughout most of the game.

Marathon game. (more than 60 hours of gameplay per playthrough)

A victory condition which includes something other than defeating a boss mob.

 

Dreads

Exposition dumps of ANY kind.

Areas becoming irrelevant as the story progresses.

Stronghold becoming irrelevant as the story progresses

Stronghold only becoming relevant near the end of the game.

Limited skill-choices and ways to differentiate your character from other characters of the same class. Playstyle pigeon-holing.

Class-personality Pidgeon-holing. (no, my rogue is not a streetwise commoner, no, my wizard is not an aloof booksmart ivory tower derp, no, my druid does feel comfortable in the city)

Team-members who hate each-others guts. They'll have to work well as a team.

Single-solution combat puzzles.

scripted events taking power away from the player. (like force-dropping you out of stealth, or positioning you unfavourably just before an encounter)

Corridor hell levels. (levels with lots and lots of corridors, linear or not)

Anything unavoidable which an intelligent player could see coming.

Undead.

Min-maxing required to be an effective combatant.

Noble sacrifice plot. (fallout 3) Leave everything behind plot (KotOR II)

 

I'm sure that's not all of them. There is this niggling thing at the back of my mind saying I've forgotten something important. So maybe there'll be a part deux.

Edited July 11, 2013 by JFSOCC

[IndiraLightfoot]

Excellent thread IndiraLightfoot!

 

Dreams

Dynamic content heavy cities with a ton of factions and exclusive content for all factions.

Dynamic stronghold which plays an integral part in the story, not just a project off on the side.

Weapons and Gear you can personalise (using crafting) to fit your playstyle.

Diverse challenges with many different approaches to solving them (not all equal).

Enemies/Monsters with (diverse) signature skills and tactics, so you know what to expect when you encounter another of the same type.

Hidden doors and secret tunnels.

Best gear available in large cities, not a small town near the end of the game.

Save-game exporting so in the sequel I can continue with my character, not just her levels and skills.

Narrative conveyed through level design and artwork as much as text. (you'd be surprised how much you can learn from seeing a head on a spike, on each spike along a perimeter, no?)

Seeing even one of my suggestions make it into the game.

Factions which you can influence the nature of.

The ability to smack some sense into people talking down to me.

Factions which remain relevant throughout most of the game.

Marathon game. (more than 60 hours of gameplay per playthrough)

A victory condition which includes something other than defeating a boss mob.

 

Dreads

Exposition dumps of ANY kind.

Areas becoming irrelevant as the story progresses.

Stronghold becoming irrelevant as the story progresses

Stronghold only becoming relevant near the end of the game.

Limited skill-choices and ways to differentiate your character from other characters of the same class. Playstyle pigeon-holing.

Class-personality Pidgeon-holing. (no, my rogue is not a streetwise commoner, no, my wizard is not an aloof booksmart ivory tower derp, no, my druid does feel comfortable in the city)

Team-members who hate each-others guts. They'll have to work well as a team.

Single-solution combat puzzles.

scripted events taking power away from the player. (like force-dropping you out of stealth, or positioning you unfavourably just before an encounter)

Corridor hell levels. (levels with lots and lots of corridors, linear or not)

Anything unavoidable which an intelligent player could see coming.

Undead.

Min-maxing required to be an effective combatant.

Noble sacrifice plot. (fallout 3) Leave everything behind plot (KotOR II)

 

I'm sure that's not all of them. There is this niggling thing at the back of my mind saying I've forgotten something important. So maybe there'll be a part deux.

And what an excellent reply! :D

 

I agree, agree, and agree! Especially that about factions, a marathon game, and those lovely save-game exports.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Dreaming about:

-Mature themes, reeking of undeath and lots of necromancy (I've got a feeling OEI will nail that)

-Resting as a necessary respite and a period of vulnerability

-Lots of lofts and attics to explore, not just endless dungeons and cellars

 

Dreading:

-Absurd gear dependency

-Boring and lengthy pre-combat buffing

-Potions and scrolls taking over spells and survival skills

Edited July 11, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Nonek]

Dreams:

Dreams or vision quests of some sort play an important part in the narrative, always seems to produce a superior game, perhaps just for Ciphers.

That there are lots of cultural and racial mores in the games locales, that serve to define the civilisations of the Dyrwood.

The resting mechanic is taken full advantage of, so that all its many role playing opportunities are utilised.

Play as a Satyr-ish Godlike, with hairy goat legs and such.

Durability is brought back with a better implementation.

That the npc's are highly distinctive, unique and integrally bound to the plot.

 

Dreads:

My fighters are just boring meatshields, whose role is to simply manage the battlefield and take damage, rather than being dangerous, deadly opponents.

We are too tightly bound into illogical combat roles, like in the horrible 4th edition of D&D or WOW.

Inventory is potent, not my character.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Dreams:

 

Play as a Satyr-ish Godlike, with hairy goat legs and such.

 

 

 

That especially is something sorely missing in most RPGs. In Titan Quest we got to kill them, but for once we would get to play one of them and tell its gnarly story.

[Sarex]

Dreaming about:

-Character creation with lots of choices right off the bat

-Character development that widens the scope of choices even more

-Great stories and lore, difficult social and moral choices and dilemmas

-Moody music, as well as fantastic art and area design

-Memorable NPCs

-Rewarding exploration - lots of twists and turns and fantastic surprises

-Challenging combat and/or sneaking, with a nice pace and strategy to it

-Unexpected traps, and not just basic tripwires and such

-A great variety of monsters and adversaries that still follow ecologies and socio-economic contexts

-Encounters on maps that are just as varied and context-bound

-A reasonably generous freedom to explore maps and dungeons in a number of different orders

-No hand-holding and obvious pointers to be seen

-Slow levelling, shortage of money and magic items

-Interesting loot, and perhaps some of it will be different on each playthrough

 

 

Dreading:

-Bare-bone character creation with far too few choices, stats that don't really matter (D3)

-Classes that narrow into pipelines as you level up

-A few great choices, the rest is just whimsical story fluff (Kingdoms of Amalur)

-A few apparent main quests (DAO - shiver!)

-A game where railroading is the norm (DS3)

-Music as mere variation on almost the same theme (lots of games)

-Too much tunes and too little atmosphere. Sound effects should shine too

-Having a few NPCs forced into the party (NWN2)

-Too repetitive dungeons and quests

-Combat feels like a chore, an annoying hurdle to jump before next quest event 

-Map A, monster 1, 2 and 3 - Map B, monster 4, 5 and 6 - Map C, monster 7, 8 and 9...

-Hordes of mindless critters

-Levels fly by and you are swimming in money, Uncle Scrooge-style

-Too much loot, and a lot of it is meaningless and takes up to much invo space

 

I like it when npcs drop armors and swords + gold/gems/jewelry, I don't like the idea of them taking that away from us. If a npc has an armor and sword in its animation it logical that they will drop it on death. I am more in the boat, "If it's not nailed down you can take it and if it is, come back later with a crowbar".

 

 

 

Dreaming about:

-Mature themes, reeking of undeath and lots of necromancy (I've got a feeling OEI will nail that)

-Resting as a necessary respite and a period of vulnerability

-Lots of lofts and attics to explore, not just endless dungeons and cellars

 

Dreading:

-Absurd gear dependency

-Boring and lengthy pre-combat buffing

-Potions and scrolls taking over spells and survival skills

 

Can you explain what you mean about gear dependency? As for pre-combat buffing, that is a combat difficulty issue, on normal difficulty in any IE game you didn't need pre-combat buffing except for some major battles.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Sarex

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

I like it when npcs drop armors and swords + gold/gems/jewelry, I don't like the idea of them taking that away from us. If a npc has an armor and sword in its animation it logical that they will drop it on death. I am more in the boat, "If it's not nailed down you can take it and if it is, come back later with a crowbar".

 

 

I do too!

And I wouldn't mind being able to take it all, fixtures and everything, but under one condition: It should not be like in Skyrim, where it's all useless junk, but rather like the upcoming Divinity: Original Sin, where a lot of that stuff is movable and usable in all sorts of ways.

 

And absurd gear dependency would be Diablo 3. What I mean is that stats and your skills and strategies should be at the forefront.

 

As for the IE games and buffing that is only partly true. Often enough, you were better off safe than sorry as you crept up in level. 

Edited July 11, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[mstark]

Dreading:

-Absurd gear dependency

-Boring and lengthy pre-combat buffing

-Potions and scrolls taking over spells and survival skills

This is interesting, since IE games could be considered to feature all 3 of these to a greater extent, depending on how you chose to play the game (I'll be intentionally over interpreting your choice of words to make my point here).

 

Gear, while usually not feeling over powered, was always required in every situation, for example having to use a sword with fire damage to kill a troll could be considered absurd gear dependency, or having to wear decent armour to have even a remote chance of surviving an encounter (because it's 100% required I'd interpret it to qualifiy as an "absurd" gear requirement). You just couldn't complete the game with at least decent gear.

 

I agree that combat pre-buffing became a bit of an issue in IE games even if I quite liked it. It encouraged rest-spamming just next to an enemy behind fog of war in order to reset all your buffs. I think PE will mitigate this somewhat by using passive buffs, like the Paladin auras that presumably don't require re-casting, but strategic party positioning instead.

 

Regarding the third point, I believe potions and scrolls have to at least match spells and survival skills, which could be considered eclipsing. I believe this would add diversity to play style, rather than forcing users to play certain classes, or down certain skill path choices.

Edited July 11, 2013 by mstark

[IndiraLightfoot]

mstark: You hit the nail on the head there! Here, I hope that Obsidian will make a different system that potentially can be more fun and rewarding than the very legendary IE games themselves.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Dream:

-Wonderful city ambience, complete with NPC barkstrings to cherish for eternity (some IE barkstrings were so good that they were recycled in NWN1)

 

Dread:

-Potemkin villages, small towns that seem entirely fake, lifeless and empty, almost cardboard-like. 

[Sarex]

I do too!

And I wouldn't mind being able to take it all, fixtures and everything, but under one condition: It should not be like in Skyrim, where it's all useless junk, but rather like the upcoming Divinity: Original Sin, where a lot of that stuff is movable and usable in all sorts of ways.

 

And absurd gear dependency would be Diablo 3. What I mean is that stats and your skills and strategies should be at the forefront.

 

As for the IE games and buffing that is only partly true. Often enough, you were better off safe than sorry as you crept up in level. 

 

 

Yeah, pls no junk. Items should be usable.

 

 

Dreading:

-Absurd gear dependency

-Boring and lengthy pre-combat buffing

-Potions and scrolls taking over spells and survival skills

This is interesting, since IE games could be considered to feature all 3 of these to a greater extent, depending on how you chose to play the game (I'll be intentionally over interpreting your choice of words to make my point here).

 

Gear, while usually not feeling over powered, was always required in every situation, for example having to use a sword with fire damage to kill a troll could be considered absurd gear dependency, or having to wear decent armour to have even a remote chance of surviving an encounter (because it's 100% required I'd interpret it to qualifiy as an "absurd" gear requirement). You just couldn't complete the game with at least decent gear.

 

I agree that combat pre-buffing became a bit of an issue in IE games even if I quite liked it. It encouraged rest-spamming just next to an enemy behind fog of war in order to reset all your buffs. I think PE will mitigate this somewhat by using passive buffs, like the Paladin auras that presumably don't require re-casting, but strategic party positioning instead.

 

Regarding the third point, I believe potions and scrolls have to at least match spells and survival skills, which could be considered eclipsing. I believe this would add diversity to play style, rather than forcing users to play certain classes, or down certain skill path choices.

 

 

But then again, you could go through a whole game without weapons and armor (monks/wizards). As for unique monsters, I think they added flavor to combat and as for the trolls example, you could kill them with any fire/acid damage (spells, potions, arrows, etc.).

Edited July 11, 2013 by Sarex

[mstark]

Dream:

-Lush, ambient, living nature: having stags and bunnies look up and quickly jump away once I reveal them from fog of war, toads and frogs near ponds, birds occasionally swooping low, landing, taking off. Think along the lines of "Don't Starve", but less exaggerated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFevW7BBOpw

 

Dread:
-Empty forests: walking around a large forest area and encountering 1 NPC, 3 goblins, a troll, and a wolf, and some swaying grass.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Dread:

-Empty forests: walking around a large forest area and encountering 1 NPC, 3 goblins, a troll, and a wolf, and some swaying grass.

 

But what a wolf, it was. A spectral Soulwarper Wolf that had turned that NPC into the raving lunatic you just encountered, and that troll, well, let's just say that was an Orlan cipher detective not long ago. The three goblins have just formed a cult around the horrific wolf. Lastly, the swaying grass is Razor Grass - brushing against it is like walking through a level 25 Blade Barrier. It's abattoir and bloody carnage rolled into one.

 

And I like the daring comparison to Don't Starve. That's a pretty neat game!

[Sabotin]

I actually dread a potential series of events:

 

-70k+ backers having their own interpretation of what PE should be like

-backers not feeling the same as playing IE games when playing PE (cause they're like 15 years older)

-backers feeling cheated, labeling PE as a nostalgia cashgrab

-renewed disinterest in the genre and death

 

-another option is that the game is buggy as hell, labeling the faults of everything else Obsidian made before as company incompetence and making the outside issues usually presented as reasons just excuses.

 

- a third dread would be that it goes like with DA2: changes presented during development are improvements or at least rationalized, end result terrible/not what expected.

 

I'll think of something more positive later, hehe

[IndiraLightfoot]

I actually dread a potential series of events:

 

-70k+ backers having their own interpretation of what PE should be like

-backers not feeling the same as playing IE games when playing PE (cause they're like 15 years older)

-backers feeling cheated, labeling PE as a nostalgia cashgrab

-renewed disinterest in the genre and death

 

-another option is that the game is buggy as hell, labeling the faults of everything else Obsidian made before as company incompetence and making the outside issues usually presented as reasons just excuses.

 

- a third dread would be that it goes like with DA2: changes presented during development are improvements or at least rationalized, end result terrible/not what expected.

 

I'll think of something more positive later, hehe

 

The horror, the horror! Your dreads are true nightmares, indeed.

[lolaldanee]

dread:

bad pacing, 2 hours of combat only followed by 2 hours only talk, and repeat

obsidian trys to do too much, bugs everywhere

game too long, as in feeling streched (like dragon age origins)

 

dream:

influence system and companions as brilliant as in AP or MotB or Dragon Age2

more voice acting than i think there will be (unlikely)

 

more to follow cool thread

Edited July 11, 2013 by lolaldanee

[Sacred_Path]

Dream: I could derive ~5 to 10 years of solid entertainment from P:E due to choices & consequences, variety in party setup, lots of character customization and overall great balance on all difficulty settings.

 

Hope: P:E will take some inspiration from IE games but improve in all areas where IE games were lacking.

 

Fears: More cool features will be left out/ dropped in order to offend the least number of players, as it happened with durability.

[IndiraLightfoot]

lolaldanee: Companions as great as in MotB is a dream I'm crossing my fingers for till they bleed!

 

Sacred_Path: Your dream is perhaps the most important one: longevity and replayability. Fortunately, Obsidian made NWN2 with two great expansions, and that right there is almost your dream come true to me. So, knowing the team behind PE, I have high hopes for them repeating and surpassing that success, while reviving the IE game spirit. 

[Gfted1]

Lets see:

 

Dream: A game that captures my imagination and plays like the BG series.

 

Dread: Almost every mechanic described so far. I have a feeling that Divinity: Original Sin is going to be the game I hoped PE would be and that PE is trending more towards Age of Decadence. 

[Karkarov]

My biggest dream is that I get the chance to have a character who isn't A: a foregone conclusion, meaning you are playing Aedric the Bounty Hunter!  or B: nothing but a blank slate.  I love me some Commander Shepard and Solid Snake etc etc.... and I can really enjoy a blank slate game like Skyrim or Baldur's Gate.  It can be done better though.  Dragon Age Origins was a step in the right direction it just didn't take it far enough.  There were even a few hidden endings in that game that were locked out based on choices you made in game and the origin you started with.  Make the fact that I am a human from country X matter to the story, even if it means my racial selections are limited.  Let me specify my characters background as a student at a prestigious college or a revenge crazed monster hunter, and make it matter to the story, again, even if it means my background selections are limited.  Lock endings, factions, entire minor plot elements out because I choose to be an elf, it is okay, if I love your game I will play it again.

 

You guys get the idea.

 

My fears?

 

Baldur's Gate 3.  An old, clunky, poorly designed rehash that only looks "great" if you have rose colored glasses on first.

 

Non tactical combat, and or, repetitive combat.  Obviously not all fights will be unique.  But this isn't an mmo, I don't want to see tanking or other tired trinity mechanics.  Make me fight those trolls in the canyon that ambush me by rolling boulders down the hill.  Make me fight the invisible stalkers in a dark cave.  Etc etc.  Mix it up and make me use tactics and the environment to win.

 

Tactical doesn't mean ball bustingly hard.  There is nothing tactical about an iron man mode where every enemy gets +50% bonus damage and 100% health boost.  It is cheap and it's lame.  Also when you use good tactics, have a well made party, and are prepared for the fight.... you shouldn't be in constant near death fights unless you are fighting enemies far stronger than you that you should be avoiding.  Fun and challenging does not equal every fight is a potential game ender.