Item Durability

[Sensuki]

[End of the Road]

Sure, so we put item durability into the game so people can complain about something completely different.

 

Also, isn't choosing the right companions for having a well-balanced party skill-wise part of the tactical aspect in this kind of games? I might like certain characters because of their personality, but if they're all squishy mages I have to look elsewhere and pick someone else. Anyway if they don't design more than one or two companions with crafting skill I don't see this being a problem.

[Quadrone]

Sounds just fine to me.

All it burns down to is that Obsidian have to be careful that degradation is not too fast and clearing one dungeon doesn't drive my sword from 100% down to 70% or less.

As long as it remains a "now and again" thing instead of a regular chore you perform after each quest as not to have an item break during the next one, I'm OK with it.

[Malekith]

How is it diferent from Lockpick?????

If you have it, and you take a thief companion you waste it.

[Fearabbit]

How is it diferent from Lockpick?????

 

 

If you have it, and you take a thief companion you waste it.

 

 

Are you talking about the Crafting skill?

Well, it does also make any equipment you wear more durable. So it's only half wasted if a companion has it as well. Plus, if it's done in the way I hope it'll be done (similar to Arcanum), then it'll be possible to learn different recipes... but I doubt they'll do that as Crafting probably won't be as important in P:E as it was in Arcanum for tech characters.

[SunBroSolaire]

I wonder if cooking / enchanting is a separate skill or combined?

[Elerond]

 

How is it diferent from Lockpick?????

If you have it, and you take a thief companion you waste it.

 

Which means that we probably will see lock picking skill change to something different or combined with other stealth skills. Because typical implementation for it goes against design principals that PE team seems to follow (no useless skills or min-max skills).

[Karkarov]

Why is this a poll?  It is in the game, no point debating it now.  Durability is fine as long as it is not too punishing.  If I can't play the game for more than an hour without a repair they need to adjust it.  If I can clear two dungeons and still be over 75% it is too lenient.

[BobbinThreadbare]

 

You should develop a negative psychological response to wasting money on

 

I disagree that there's no reward. As you say, it will create a concern in the back of your mind. Then when you repair your stuff at the forge you relieve that concern. Tension/release is inherently rewarding.

 

I wouldn't mind if they added a temporary buff when your weapons are above 90%. 'Sharpness' bonus, or something. Make sure it doesn't last long enough that people would rely on it, but it would give a nice extra reward for keeping equipment in good shape. Kind of like the 'well rested' buff in the Fallout games.

 

 

There's no wasting money. Repair costs are proportional to damage, so fixing a sword twice from 70% should cost about the same as fixing it once from 40%.

 

The release of repairing an item is going to be very small and very short lived, while the tension of durability will be basically ever present as the first time you swing it's already below 100%. While they're might be some reward, the cost-reward ratio is terrible.

 

However, I meant no reward for investing in crafting with regards to durability. In truth there is some reward, but again it's minimal and feels terrible. No one likes to spend money, even in games, and when the reward is "you get to spend less money", well that's not my idea of fun.

 

I'm not wholly against the idea of durability, but the mechanic presented is about as boring and tedius as I can think of.

[Karkarov]

However, I meant no reward for investing in crafting with regards to durability. In truth there is some reward, but again it's minimal and feels terrible. No one likes to spend money, even in games, and when the reward is "you get to spend less money", well that's not my idea of fun.

Only you don't invest in crafting for the perks it gives you to your repairing skills, you invest in it for the ability to make items associated with the craft.  It will still be plenty rewarding.

[BobbinThreadbare]

I specifically said "with regards to durability". According the Sawyer the whole durability idea was added to give you a reason to take crafting with all characters. So that's the only reason you would invest it in with more than one character.

Edited July 3, 2013 by BobbinThreadbare

[curryinahurry]

...

The release of repairing an item is going to be very small and very short lived, while the tension of durability will be basically ever present as the first time you swing it's already below 100%. While they're might be some reward, the cost-reward ratio is terrible.

...

 

 

 

Just to be clear from Tim Cain's post" "Items have lots of units of durability, and they do not suffer any negative effects until those units are completely gone."  So it will likely be at 25%, when the item is shown as "worn" status, that one might start getting concerned.

 

I have no horse in this race.  

[Sakarabu]

I went with the second option. I think there is a place for engaging and interesting crafting experiences, but in general I think they are implemented terribly. 

 

The best examples I have from the original announcement thread would be:

 

1) Baldur's Gate 2's system of finding parts to legendary weapons, then getting a master blacksmith to forge them for you. This adds awesome gameplay through always having an additional goal in the back of your mind plundering forgotten tombs searching for ancient artifacts, a puzzle element of finding the different pieces to the items, great lore - as every item has it's own unique flavour text and history and of course a feeling of reward when you finally finish an item. All of these factors make it a great system and they also ADD something, such as making you explore the game world properly and therefore finding other new and interesting encounters.

 

2) Dark Souls system of finding unique souls from bosses and then forging them into "legendary" items. Obviously this couldn't be put into the game 1:1, but it's a good example of a rewarding, unique and non-trivial crafting system. The items you got also weren't much stronger than items you could collect throughout the game, but they all had a unique feel, weapon model and use.

 

I honestly don't think I have ever played a system which includes "collect 5 goat cheeses to make a cheese sandwich", that I actually liked. It worked in WoW because you used consumables for raiding, they were included as a money sink. But this isn't an MMO.. there is zero need for it. By far the worst system was Skyrim, it was tedious, standard potions were absolutely useless, and the uber potions you combined were extremely broken.

[Sensuki]

 

Looks like part of the skill design is to have a degradable benefit to combat to match the benefit of combat benefit of Stealth. I don't like that design even though it may be 'mathematically sound', these are supposed to be non-combat skills right? Why does it have to be a combat-based side benefit? Sounds like overdesigning to me.

 

If that is the case I'd prefer not to have crafting as a skill.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[Chrononaut]

 

Looks like part of the skill design is to have a degradable benefit to combat to match the benefit of combat benefit of Stealth. I don't like that design even though it may be 'mathematically sound', these are supposed to be non-combat skills right? Why does it have to be a combat-based side benefit? Sounds like overdesigning to me.

 

If that is the case I'd prefer not to have crafting as a skill.

Well, it was a stretch goal, they can't really just not do it.

 

And what's the point of making a poll about a game feature anyway? It's pretty inappropriate to pressure developers in this way, nor should PE be designed in such a way.

[exodiark]

 

 

All item durability can add to the game is either minor or major discomfort.

It WAS fitting in Fallout 3 and FNV because Survivalism was a major theme of Fallout Universe, and the athmosphere of people trying to stay alive on among the ruins of the world and using every trash and scrap to maintain their old and rag-tag equipment. But in a fantasy wold it will bring only discomfort and annoyance, as it was proven by Oblivion.

I highly doubt BG2 would be more interesting if similar mechanics would be implemented there and you have to constantly check your stuff before every venture.

I'm all against it.

One man's "discomfort" or "annoyance" is another's challenge. You shouldn't presume that other people dislike survival simulation mechanics simply because you don't.

 

I could presume it because it is my opinion.

P.S. Also, Hardcore mode in FNV sounded good initially but in the end turned into a boring routine and ultimately failed to simulate hard and unforgiwing world of Wasteland.

 

Really? I thought it was good that Stimpaks don't work immediately and bullets have weight. Not to mention you need Doctor's Bag to cure crippled limbs, which are relatively rare. For added challenges.

Playing Lonesome Road in Very Hard is quite satisfying, planning a trip in advance CAN be entertaining

[curryinahurry]

 

Looks like part of the skill design is to have a degradable benefit to combat to match the benefit of combat benefit of Stealth. I don't like that design even though it may be 'mathematically sound', these are supposed to be non-combat skills right? Why does it have to be a combat-based side benefit? Sounds like overdesigning to me.

 

If that is the case I'd prefer not to have crafting as a skill.

 

The whole point of crafting in games is to support combat; armor, weapons, potions, etc.  There may be other skills that have an aspect that is oriented towards combat while being classified as a non-combat skill, like running, swimming, arcane lore, who knows.  

 

Also, even though I'm pretty neutral to the concept of durability, it's really no different than any other resource management system in the game.  

[Sensuki]

Well, it was a stretch goal, they can't really just not do it.

I never said I didn't want crafting. I said because of their skill system, I'd prefer to have crafting not as a skill, but rather as an arbitrary action that every player can do, and the pre-requisites be tied to the item recipes. That way everyone wins.

 

And what's the point of making a poll about a game feature anyway? It's pretty inappropriate to pressure developers in this way, nor should PE be designed in such a way.

What's the point of pointing that out? It's pretty inappopriate to pressure me in that way.

 

Haha, but seriously - I have already stated my reasons for the poll, to take the discussion of Item durability by itself out of the update thread and take it to a central place. It's a public forum and they have stated multiple times that they get insight from forum feedback, heaven forbid people give out constructive criticism once in a while.

 

I don't even really think Item durability in itself is bad, I just really do not like the fact that it is tied to the Crafting skill, or that the crafting skill (or skills in general) must have a combat-related per-character sliding benefit to compensate for the shortfall between other skills and the Stealth skill. I believe there is room for both one-person per party skills and skills that are useful for everyone. That is my opinion, agree or disagree as you like.

 

edit: Sorry I'm also posting about this in multiple forums and threads so I am not sure if I stated all of that in this thread before.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Chrononaut: Also, OEI has made it clear from the start (during the KS and afterwards) that they want an active, engaged and creative community. They really seem to appreciate the input. I'm sure they can sift through all suggestions, comments and polls here and make qualified decisions on their own. A few times, it may lead to changes, but then it should be because they feel it's the best way forward. 

[Hassat Hunter]

While I didn't read the whole thread, I don't see durability having a point in a game that's not an action RPG or MMORPG.

 

And last I checked, PE was neither of these.

[Chrononaut]

Chrononaut: Also, OEI has made it clear from the start (during the KS and afterwards) that they want an active, engaged and creative community. They really seem to appreciate the input. I'm sure they can sift through all suggestions, comments and polls here and make qualified decisions on their own. A few times, it may lead to changes, but then it should be because they feel it's the best way forward. 

I don't see much creativity here, really. Just whining that a game feature is too "tedious" and "annoying", and that as a result it must be removed.

[Sensuki]

I don't see much creativity here, really. Just whining that a game feature is too "tedious" and "annoying", and that as a result it must be removed.

You mustn't have been reading very intently then.

 

Another thing I don't like about Crafting is because of it's relation to Item Durability, Item Durability now becomes the main reason for taking it, not Crafting in itself, because really, it doesn't matter who crafts.

 

Josh Sawyer has said the following two things about skills:

 

You will only be able to max one skill, not two. You will be able to have two high skills.

 

A rogue is probably not going to take Crafting because they will take Stealth and Mechanics

A wizard is probably not going to take Crafting because they cast spells, if you build a frontline wizard who uses a melee weapon then yeah maybe you'll take Crafting, but probably not as there will be other skills better for the Wizard.

A ranger is probably not going to take Crafting because they are a ranged character, ranged weapons probably still degrade but they most likely wont directly be getting hit very much, their animal companion will be instead.

Not 100% sure but a cipher seems like a less likely class to take crafting with as well, unless you build a melee cipher

 

It's going to be melee fighters, barbarians and paladins that put high points in crafting because they are hitting often and getting hit often, so it makes the most strategical and economical sense for those characters to take crafting solely because of item degradation.

 

That to me is a negative side-effect of applying combat bonuses to skills that in my opinion shouldn't have combat bonuses.

[JFSOCC]

Well Sensuki, I'm thinking about letting my rogue do some crafting.

 

Anyway.

This whole thread seems to be the loss aversion parade. I think you'll find it will work fine in the game.

[Sensuki]

Well Sensuki, I'm thinking about letting my rogue do some crafting.

 

Anyway.

This whole thread seems to be the loss aversion parade. I think you'll find it will work fine in the game.

 

Sure, but if you are power gaming, leveling up your crafting means that you will not be able to have high points in both stealth and mechanics - so you'll need another party member to compensate probably on the mechanics shortfall.

 

It's definitely not about loss aversion for me, I would rather see a Diablo 2 item durability system than have Crafting and Weapon Maintenance lumped together to give people an excuse to take Crafting on multiple characters, it seems like a clumsy excuse to keep Crafting in the skill pool rather than just keep it as a separate action like BG2 and KotOR2.

[Malekith]

Well Sensuki, I'm thinking about letting my rogue do some crafting.

 

Anyway.

This whole thread seems to be the loss aversion parade. I think you'll find it will work fine in the game.

Iike Arcanum, NWN2 and F:NV? No thanks.