Dragon Age: Inquisition

[Oerwinde]

Ok, lots of Aveline love. I just usually see her taking crap when DA2 comes up

[ShadySands]

Some of the hate I saw for her was that Hawke couldn't e-hit it

 

To be fair I really didn't spend a lot of time reading people's opinions over on the BSN. All the threads move too fast over there and ain't nobody got time for that

[Orogun01]

Some of the hate I saw for her was that Hawke couldn't e-hit it

 

To be fair I really didn't spend a lot of time reading people's opinions over on the BSN. All the threads move too fast over there and ain't nobody got time for that

If the BSN had a physical incarnation it would be preaching tolerance and equality while humping the sofa.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Some of the hate I saw for her was that Hawke couldn't e-hit it

 

To be fair I really didn't spend a lot of time reading people's opinions over on the BSN. All the threads move too fast over there and ain't nobody got time for that

If the BSN had a physical incarnation it would be preaching tolerance and equality while humping the sofa.

 

I dunno, the BSN seems to be virulently intolerant of anyone who disagrees with (insert pint of view), which is why most threads are giant flame wars. And it would be a rainbow rug, not a sofa.

[Orogun01]

 

 

Some of the hate I saw for her was that Hawke couldn't e-hit it

 

To be fair I really didn't spend a lot of time reading people's opinions over on the BSN. All the threads move too fast over there and ain't nobody got time for that

If the BSN had a physical incarnation it would be preaching tolerance and equality while humping the sofa.

 

I dunno, the BSN seems to be virulently intolerant of anyone who disagrees with (insert pint of view), which is why most threads are giant flame wars. And it would be a rainbow rug, not a sofa.

 

Yes on the rainbow rug and I should have specified that it was LGTB tolerance.

[tajerio]

 

I thought that combat in DA2 was much superior to that of DA:O in pace, and the tactical element was still very much there at Hard difficulty--in fact I thought the combat was tactically superior, thanks to combinations, to that of DA:O, which was often agonizingly slow and lacked variation.

 

Hmm, did you play Origins a few times too? Because if you did, I cannot for the life of me understand how you could feel that DA2 was tactically superior. The whole DNA of the combat was less 'think like a general' and more 'fight like a spartan'. Gone was the tactical camera. Friendly fire was off by default, and generally off by choice (the enemy animations were too fast to place the target marker without frustration). The enemies used special attacks a lot less frequently. Terrain did not matter. There were no traps, or bombs. There were no ballistas, barricades, pits, mabari cages, ice patches, oil patches or other great props. That's before we get to enemies spawning in your face and behind your mage who previously was in a 'safe' spot in the back near a dead-end.

 

DA2 did on the other hand introduce reflex based dodging of killer attacks (Rock Wraith) and looooong slug-fest boss fights (I think with only a couple of reloads I literally spent 2 hours on the Arishok - during which I would ordinarily have uninstalled, but instead took the difficulty down to normal because I believed the story would save it).

 

 

I've actually played DA:O more times than DA2 (7 as opposed to 5).  I did always play DA2 with friendly fire on, and there were more than a few traps (though you couldn't set any yourself of course).  I honestly enjoyed the "second wave" thing from a tactical challenge perspective, while simultaneously thinking it was incredibly stupid from literally any other perspective.  My main problem with DA:O was that while outside factors (like the barricades or what have you) mattered more in the combat, the combat was just much too slow.  And in DA2 non-mage characters had a larger number of interesting choices as to which of their abilities I wanted to employ in combat--part of DA:O's problem from a tactical perspective was the extreme limitation of choice for non-mages, until Awakening when BioWare broke their power curve.  

[alanschu]

I think that this is fairly much uncontestable, partially due to the fact that their standard defense for any decision they're challenged on is to lionise themselves as white knights and demonise their accusers as homophobes and misogynists, no matter the logic or justness of their accusations. In courting the kind of "people" who frequent the Bioware Social Network they've forged their own mandate, which they will have to keep to, despite the insulting depiction of women in their games from the half dressed idiot Isabella to the incompetent guardswoman whose name escapes me and all of the other unmotivated slaves to the protagonist.

 

I agree with David's recent tumblr that put forth the notion that, for some people, having some of the stuff exist in any capacity is akin to "shoving it down your throat" and that for these people, it's often the case that the only acceptable solution is to not include it at all.  Which is quite the dichotomy.

 

There's plenty of people on the BSN that loathe BioWare's attempts to be inclusive for homosexuals (among other things).  It's in large part why the forum is so divided and hostile as it is.  Isabella is created as a juxtaposition, as requested and created by her very female writer.  On the surface she is the stereotype, but that's the point.  She is a sexual being *because she wants to be* as opposed to "she has sex with the player character because that's what her reason for existing in the game is."  If you're referring to the inadequacy of her clothing offering protection, I always find it interesting that this criticism doesn't often apply to people like Varric (who has decided to leave his entire torso completely undefended), and also fits the caricature notion that the art style has.  It's fine to NOT like the art style (you'd hardly be alone) of DA2, but be consistent.

 

As for Aveline (whom I also liked Oerwinde)... if you're referring to the entire cast as "unmotivated slaves" then clearly this isn't simply a case of "insulting depiction of women."

Edited August 5, 2013 by alanschu

[Monte Carlo]

 

Ha ha ha

 

 

Ha ha ha for proving Nonek's point precisely.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Monte Carlo

[exodiark]

Bioware's gay characters are mostly fine, except Cortez, god I hate that man. He's so tacky I rolled my eyes to Utah and back.

I mean:
- He replayed the death of his husband in front of his commander and in public space too, with no earphones. If that's no attention-wh*ring and forced drama I don't know what that is.
- You can only be nice and be nice to him. Why can't my ass**** renegade Shepard mock him because he's such an attention wh*re?

- He never failed his job. Although being an attention-wh*re, he will suddenly die at the end of the game because you ignored him.
- All other NPCs have this obsession of praising him when he was just doing his job. "We can't make it without Cortez" "I don't know what I do without Cortez" etc. It's so jarring when other team mates are rarely praised for doing their job. When was the last time Garrus was praised by other team mates? or Ashley? or Jack? This is the weakest of my complaints though.

I think for the next game Bioware should avoid gay Marty Stus and just continue making normal characters, which happened to be gay, like Leliana, Zevran, or Samantha.

Also, on Mary Sue and Marty Stu topic, Bioware should allow players to make more stupid mistakes, more Morinth choices. This humanizes the protagonist and make his/her story much more compelling. DA2 was boring because the choices are so balanced, Hawke can never screwed up so bad he lost everything. And no, Hawke did not lose anything when his kid brother died, he didn't contribute to the story much anyway

Edited August 5, 2013 by exodiark

[Sannom]

Why would you ask for a Morinth choice? It's just a non-standard game-over. It's funny when developpers include it, but asking for it? What's the point?

 

DA2 was boring because the choices are so balanced, Hawke can never screwed up so bad he lost everything. And no, Hawke did not lose anything when his kid brother died, he didn't contribute to the story much anyway

DA2 and like almost every RPG ever. Why single it out? Edited August 5, 2013 by Sannom

[Nonek]

 

I think that this is fairly much uncontestable, partially due to the fact that their standard defense for any decision they're challenged on is to lionise themselves as white knights and demonise their accusers as homophobes and misogynists, no matter the logic or justness of their accusations. In courting the kind of "people" who frequent the Bioware Social Network they've forged their own mandate, which they will have to keep to, despite the insulting depiction of women in their games from the half dressed idiot Isabella to the incompetent guardswoman whose name escapes me and all of the other unmotivated slaves to the protagonist.

 

I agree with David's recent tumblr that put forth the notion that, for some people, having some of the stuff exist in any capacity is akin to "shoving it down your throat" and that for these people, it's often the case that the only acceptable solution is to not include it at all.  Which is quite the dichotomy.

 

There's plenty of people on the BSN that loathe BioWare's attempts to be inclusive for homosexuals (among other things).  It's in large part why the forum is so divided and hostile as it is.  Isabella is created as a juxtaposition, as requested and created by her very female writer.  On the surface she is the stereotype, but that's the point.  She is a sexual being *because she wants to be* as opposed to "she has sex with the player character because that's what her reason for existing in the game is."  If you're referring to the inadequacy of her clothing offering protection, I always find it interesting that this criticism doesn't often apply to people like Varric (who has decided to leave his entire torso completely undefended), and also fits the caricature notion that the art style has.  It's fine to NOT like the art style (you'd hardly be alone) of DA2, but be consistent.

 

As for Aveline (whom I also liked Oerwinde)... if you're referring to the entire cast as "unmotivated slaves" then clearly this isn't simply a case of "insulting depiction of women."

 

 

Tell Mr Gaider to play Fallout: New Vegas and talk with Arcade, subtlety is not a writers enemy and it makes for far more realistic depictions.

 

My objection to Isabella's attire is mostly down to the fact that her state of undress in a temperate seaside city means she would contract hypothermia and die within a few hours, especially as she's a native of much warmer climes.

 

In regards to the constant combat every ten feet, yes it does seem idiotic to go without adequate harness, the boring dwarf included. Though I seem to recall him wearing a sturdy buff coat, which would be as fine a piece of armour as any other for a rogue if he'd button it up. It's fine that in juxtaposition she wishes to be a sexual being, but at the cost of losing a limb to hypothermia or combat? I really don't need to defend my dislike of that, it's not an artistic choice it's insultingly idiotic and no human being would do such a thing, thus why she remains a caricature in my eyes.

 

As for the entire cast being unmotivated slaves, yes you're correct and I was wrong, they all are and it's an insulting depiction of humanity in general.

 

NB - However as i've stated before repeatedly the game was enjoyable and fun, so on some level it worked, and therefore fulfilled its raison d'etre. That's something to be proud of, and there's nothing wrong with catering to the target market your firm has chosen, they're a vocal and growing minority. I would simply caution that championing any cause carries inherent risks, as ones behaviour must be beyond reproach and I don't believe that your companies handling of women has been. However I may be utterly wrong in my appraisal, feel free to dissect or dismiss as you wish.

 

Edit: Sexuality is not limited to lack of clothing in my eyes, far from it.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Nonek

[Zoraptor]

DA2 and like almost every RPG ever. Why single it out?

 

 

Yeah, Alpha Protocol had that as one of its main publicly stated philosophies, for example. It's probably better than BG2's "evil= chaotic stupid, get less quests and XP for free" approach at least if handled well.

 

Do have to agree on Steve though, he's basically a one trait character which always annoys me. I really disliked that accident prone elf (? Lini ?) in NWN for much the same reason though I was less likely to like anyone in NWN anyway. On the other hand, Shep getting shot down by his assistant for being a bloke was something I liked a lot in how it was handled.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Zoraptor

[lobotomy42]

She is a sexual being *because she wants to be* as opposed to "she has sex with the player character because that's what her reason for existing in the game is."

 

Here's the thing though: she is not a real person, so "because she wants to be" is not a real reason.  I get that they gave her motivation and backstory and she's a modern (medieval) independent woman in control of her sexuality, but the reality - like, in the real world, reality - is that she is a video game character.  And as a video game character, in a game played mostly by men, many of whom will never finish the game or pay much attention to her backstory, she is a scantily-clad woman who has big boobs and talks about having sex A LOT.  I am not saying such a character should not exist or cannot exist, and I am not saying there was not an honest attempt to write her intelligently.  But, fundamentally, you can't get around the fact that her function in the game is more sexual object for the player than sexual being.  She reads to the player as "the one with the boobs who likes sex."  Bioware is trying to have their cake and eat it too with this character by subverting expectations - but those expectations are never actually subverted.  She basically still *is* that superficial character the player imagined. You can tell the player "Well, but it's HER wanting sex, not you" but this is meaningless in a game where you essentially control the outcome.  All of the potential romantic partners in any Bioware game "want" the player to the same degree as any other - that is, to the degree the player selects the "heart" dialogue choice.

 

This idea could work, maybe, in a game where you didn't have one single PC avatar and you were controlling (or not controlling) all of the characters equally.  But in the traditional Bioware cRPG formula, Isabela still reads (to me at least) as a pretty awful presence in the game.

 

YMMV

[Maria Caliban]

If BioWare makes a good faith attempt to create a ‘sexually liberated’ woman who is more than a woman with big breasts, and the player simply goes ‘lol ****,’ the fault is with the player, not the developer.

 

There are still players who dislike Aveline because she’s ‘masculine’ and ‘ugly.’ This doesn’t mean BioWare should only include conventionally attractive and feminine women in their games. It means that there will always be players who have shallow reactions.

 

 

DA2 was boring because the choices are so balanced, Hawke can never screwed up so bad he lost everything. And no, Hawke did not lose anything when his kid brother died, he didn't contribute to the story much anyway

I'd argue that one of the problems with DA 2 is that Hawke can seem to do almost nothing but screw up.

 

Who brought an ancient evil artifact out of the depths of the Deep Road? Hawke.

Why wasn't Anders caught while he was in Kirkwall? Hawke.

Who failed to protect family member after family member? Hawke.

 

There's literally an interaction with a character where you can promise to protect them from their blood mage lover. Hawke then wanders off and the next thing you get is a cutscene of the blood mage killing the person you just promised to protect.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Maria Caliban

[NOK222]

 

 

Who failed to protect family member after family member? Hawke.

You know during development, they were gonna put the option to save Leandra? But they wanted to be edgy and dark. 

[Maria Caliban]

I am ambivolent about the death of Leandra. The build up in previous chapters, the chase to find the killer, the moment Hawke holds her mother's dying body, and Aveline + LI comforting Hawke afterwards were all solid.

 

I dislike that it was another example of a blood mage being evil. You could have it be a regular mage, or even a regular human. Regular humans are can be just as evil as blood mages. And please, no zombie!mom. A line or two explaining that Hawke has been looking for the killer but not caught them yet would be appreciated.

 

Of the various family member deaths, I thought that one was handled the best, so I'd keep it and perhaps have the sibling you take to Kirkwall only die/leave if you bring them into the Deep Roads.

[anubite]

DA2 was meant to be a "personal story" but I never really got caught up in any of the "personalness" - I mean, your sister/brother is taken from you in the first act, Gamlen is an asswipe, and Leandra is a weak-spirited woman who looks like she could curl up into the fetal position at any moment. Maybe it's just a flaw with the entire narrative of DA2, but I just couldn't connect. So, every family scene was just awkward, forced, badly foreshadowed or poorly built up, or all of the above.

 

Although it would be interesting to have a personal story in a medieval fantasy, DA:O was built up to be about the Darkspawn and the political schemings of one man. It was discovering and defeating ancient and mundane evil.

 

The family stuff just doesn't fit.

 

Every scene involving blood mages, templars or Hawke's family... I just wanted to be about the Arishok. The game just wasn't going to carry all of the plot threads coherently, because they were all about different things. Hawke's family troubles have little to do with Mage/Templar conflict besides what's shoved down our throats. The mage/templar conflict has little to do with the Qunari. The family conflict also has nothing to do with that.

 

The way they should have built DA2 up was with the Qunari. Flesh them out. Build up their landing (don't make it this sudden awkward appearance), build up their political angle, make us empathize with what they want, then give us a choice - side with them or side against them. That's how it all shoudl have played out, with other minor conflicts as sprinklings ot teasings for DA3.

 

Realistically, they had less than a year anyway. The decision to have so many story threads with such a small development budget was very poor.

 

I'd say, KOTOR2 worked. It has similar development problems, but it worked largely in part (well, okay, in hindsight it works, I think we can all agree the launch bugs killed the game's chance at significant financial success) because of its strong character-driven focus. Kreia was a great centerpiece character. The Arishok was perfect too - the major antagonist, with an interesting spirituallty-centered doctrine. Except, you have just a few conversations with him and then you kill him and it all just feels largely pointless, especially since it has little to do with Acts 1 or 3.

Edited August 6, 2013 by anubite

[Halaster]

 

There's plenty of people on the BSN that loathe BioWare's attempts to be inclusive for homosexuals (among other things).  It's in large part why the forum is so divided and hostile as it is. 

 

Sorry Alan, but this sounds like the EA 'party line' when criticized. A pure deflection. "We got voted worst company in America because of homophobes!". It took two awards in a row to get a whimper of an admission that maybe there was a little more to the 'awards' than just being pro-LGBT. I would not have reacted to your post if you had simply said "in part" rather than "in large part".

 

Here's a bold and novel thought for you: the BSN forum is so divided because BioWare decided that the passionate fans they had were not numerous enough to feed their new artificially bloated budget and increasing shareholder appetite, so the best thing to do was to ditch those fans and start making the sort of games that those fans specifically came to BioWare in the first place to avoid (ie games like 95% of AAA releases these days). BW made a ton of other changes to the RPG and the BioWare trademark formula in ME3 and DA2 that I find it simply wonderous that you single out LGBT as the 'largest' issue you think your fans have.

 

If you truly believe that homophobes have nothing better to do than A) playing a game they despise because it deals with gay themes and B) spending years on the developer's official forum trolling about it ... then I am truly at a loss for words.

 

I spent years on the BSN before and after DA2. All I can say is - I thought the forums pre-DA2 tidbit leak were among the more civilized on the interweb. Up until 2011 people derided 'Biodrones' because whenever you said anything bad about the game on the BSN, you'd be set upon by a swarm of rabid, indoctrinated fanboys. Notice how hardly anyone is using that term any more, or if they are they're very occasional gamers that last played something in 2010. Feel free to think that your drones have mostly buzzed off "in large part" dut to LGBT support.

[Nepenthe]

Part, part!

[Gorth]

Guys, let's focus more on the game(s) and less on other companies communities. I know threads drift off course when no tangible information is available to disagree about, but disagreeing about other communities is heading down the track to nowhere (i.e. lets give it a break while still relatively civil)

[BruceVC]

 

 

There's plenty of people on the BSN that loathe BioWare's attempts to be inclusive for homosexuals (among other things).  It's in large part why the forum is so divided and hostile as it is. 

 

Sorry Alan, but this sounds like the EA 'party line' when criticized. A pure deflection. "We got voted worst company in America because of homophobes!". It took two awards in a row to get a whimper of an admission that maybe there was a little more to the 'awards' than just being pro-LGBT. I would not have reacted to your post if you had simply said "in part" rather than "in large part".

 

Here's a bold and novel thought for you: the BSN forum is so divided because BioWare decided that the passionate fans they had were not numerous enough to feed their new artificially bloated budget and increasing shareholder appetite, so the best thing to do was to ditch those fans and start making the sort of games that those fans specifically came to BioWare in the first place to avoid (ie games like 95% of AAA releases these days). BW made a ton of other changes to the RPG and the BioWare trademark formula in ME3 and DA2 that I find it simply wonderous that you single out LGBT as the 'largest' issue you think your fans have.

 

If you truly believe that homophobes have nothing better to do than A) playing a game they despise because it deals with gay themes and B) spending years on the developer's official forum trolling about it ... then I am truly at a loss for words.

 

I spent years on the BSN before and after DA2. All I can say is - I thought the forums pre-DA2 tidbit leak were among the more civilized on the interweb. Up until 2011 people derided 'Biodrones' because whenever you said anything bad about the game on the BSN, you'd be set upon by a swarm of rabid, indoctrinated fanboys. Notice how hardly anyone is using that term any more, or if they are they're very occasional gamers that last played something in 2010. Feel free to think that your drones have mostly buzzed off "in large part" dut to LGBT support.

 

 

Wow you really have a low opinion of BSN? Its funny I have never been attacked or verbally insulted on BSN. It may be because I have the same posting style that I have on these forums and I find people to be civil and keen to provide feedback when you are equally polite.

 

Also I absolutely support the inclusive nature around the way Bioware has tried to include all types of relationships in there games. And I also feel that bigotry is a reason for some of the discourse on BSN. Some people use surreptitious means to "stimulate debate" but in fact they are bigots and enjoy hijacking debates and see topics get disrupted

[Halaster]

We've been asked to stay off the topic of other companies' communities, so I'll make this my last remark (please be merciful Gorth):

 

The BSN has calmed down in the last year, imho, but on massively reduced volumes. The ones who are left there are those who liked DA2 and/or ME3 - and it is once again an echo chamber. People who did not like DA2 and ME3 have seen the direction BioWare is going, and know that that developer has now almost certainly (and irreversibly) switched their product forumula and is not making the same niche stuff they used to. Those people are gone from the BSN, so most of the 'bickering' is about whether Varric's hair is the right shade of blonde.

[exodiark]

 

 

Why would you ask for a Morinth choice? It's just a non-standard game-over. It's funny when developpers include it, but asking for it? What's the point?
 

DA2 was boring because the choices are so balanced, Hawke can never screwed up so bad he lost everything. And no, Hawke did not lose anything when his kid brother died, he didn't contribute to the story much anyway 

DA2 and like almost every RPG ever. Why single it out?

 

By Morinth choices I meant choosing Morinth over Samara. She's totally psycho, and you lose lots of contents in ME3.

No, suboptimal choices are more common than you think, In FONV I could pick the wrong perks, skills, side with Elijah, choose to lock myself, or stop nuking factions even though I missed 2 bonus dungeons. In MOTB I could let One of Many to devour

or didn't recruit every team mate and lose great story content. In ME2 I could kill almost all of my team mates in the suicide mission, sell Legion to Cerberus.
 

 

 

DA2 was boring because the choices are so balanced, Hawke can never screwed up so bad he lost everything. And no, Hawke did not lose anything when his kid brother died, he didn't contribute to the story much anyway

I'd argue that one of the problems with DA 2 is that Hawke can seem to do almost nothing but screw up.

Who brought an ancient evil artifact out of the depths of the Deep Road? Hawke.
Why wasn't Anders caught while he was in Kirkwall? Hawke.
Who failed to protect family member after family member? Hawke.

There's literally an interaction with a character where you can promise to protect them from their blood mage lover. Hawke then wanders off and the next thing you get is a cutscene of the blood mage killing the person you just promised to protect.

 

 

No that's not what I meant. if there's no choice other than screwing up, then it's no suboptimal choice.
If I have the choice not to pick up the idol, then picking it would be suboptimal choice.
If I have the choice to arrest Anders, then leaving him on the large would be suboptimal choice.
If I have the choice to save my mom, then failing her would be suboptimal choice.

Suboptimal choices like these are what I want, but in DA2, I didn't have any.

What I meant is, my choices in DA2 are so well-balanced I couldn't screw up. If I choose Orsino rather than Meredith, I would have to fight both of them anyway. Sure I can return Fenris to his master or leave Isabela to the Qunari, but those choices have their perks since: their role is redundant, I'm not interested in emo elf and domestic abuse survivor, and I don't want to be on the bad side of Qunari or Tevinter mages.

Edited August 6, 2013 by exodiark

[Zoraptor]

"We got voted worst company in America because of homophobes!". It took two awards in a row to get a whimper of an admission that maybe there was a little more to the 'awards' than just being pro-LGBT.

 

EA got voted worst company two years in a row because gamers- by and large- lack any sort of perspective, self awareness, sense of proportion or relativity; which is more than made up for by the hugely inflated senses of self importance, entitlement and ability to take truly trivial stuff serious. I find it deeply embarrassing even being tangentially associated with a group who think Day 1 DLC for their luxury pursuit is more of an affront than some of the stuff BoA and other entrants pulled. (Yeah yeah, sending a message, BoA always wins etc etc)

 

Gamers. Like a three year old throwing a tanty telling mum and dad that they hate them at the top of their lungs...

[Malcador]

Shame that didn't happen back when EASpouse came out and such (then again, that stuff might still be going).