Brazilian Riots

[BruceVC]

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/20/world/americas/opinion-brazil-simoes

 

Guys this is big news and worries me. One of the reasons being that Brazil is considered a paradigm of how emerging markets should grow there economies and how to address social issues like poverty and unemployment. In South Africa we are constantly told how we should be more like Brazil. But these intense riots actually highlight that there economic resurgence has major systemic problems.

 

The riots were originally started by people unhappy with the bus fare increase that was implemented to help pay for the football World Cup next year. But then grew as people vociferously objected to other social issues like  general corruption in the government, ineffective health-care and issues around education. One million people rioted in Rio De Janeiro today. Brazil faces some serious civil unrest

 

Anyway the link gives the background to these riots so read that for video's and more detailed information

[Gfted1]

Imagine the crapstorm when they try to finance the 2016 Summer Olympics. Rio is a ridiculously decadent and awesome place to party though.

[Amentep]

Imagine the crapstorm when they try to finance the 2016 Summer Olympics. Rio is a ridiculously decadent and awesome place to party though.

They're already financing the 2016 Summer Olympics though (which may be part of why the population is feeling a taxation crunch).

[Walsingham]

I think it's fascinating how such huge public order issues can be triggered by such seemingly random things.

 

- Turkey - a public park

- Brazil - bus tickets

- American War of Independence - a tiny tax on a luxury drink

 

It occurs to me that it must be like brush fires. The trigger is tiny. But the store of fuel (i.e. resentment and mistrust) must be large.

 

But I'm not sure you should assume it means Brazil isn't improving. The UK went through an incredibly fierce set of revolts and riots as it industrialised. Peterloo massacre, anyone?

[BruceVC]

 

 

But I'm not sure you should assume it means Brazil isn't improving. The UK went through an incredibly fierce set of revolts and riots as it industrialised. Peterloo massacre, anyone?

 

You are right Brazil has made some excellent  social improvements. But that's not what I am concerned about. The riots in Brazil are basically a class war, the rioters are people that represent a large percentage of people that probably don't earn much money and that feel they don't have many economic prospects. But for the last 20 years Brazil has been quite vocal about doing everything they can do about uplifting the indigent and they seemed to have achieved the perfect result. A growing economy and middle class and effective social services for the poor.

 

But that's not enough it seems. And if the rioters are asking for major changes then what has been the real impact of Brazil's economic reforms? We face similar challengers in Africa where there are large numbers of impoverished people. So imagine if the poor of Africa take to the streets and demand change like in Brazil? There would be bedlam as certain governments are doing all they can do address the social inequalities in Africa but it wouldn't be enough. These types of riots would bring the economic powerhouses of Africa to its knees.

 

Of course this is unlikely to occur in most African countries but its a concern nonetheless. I want to see how this Brazilian instability plays out

Edited June 21, 2013 by BruceVC

[HoonDing]

Brazil provided the games, but forgot about the bread.

 

The plebs remembers.

[Tsuga C]

Brazil's been a seething mass of underclass envy and resentment for...well, for all of the previous century, at the very least. You have a European elite living in gated communities and shopping and recreating in exclusive enclaves ruling over a mestizo, mulatto, and black underclass with profoundly little access to upward mobility. Sure there's a modest middle class that includes the latter types, but despite its advances over the last three decades Brazil remains a country heavily divided by class. Situations like that are always a powder keg.

[AGX-17]

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/20/world/americas/opinion-brazil-simoes

 

Guys this is big news and worries me. One of the reasons being that Brazil is considered a paradigm of how emerging markets should grow there economies and how to address social issues like poverty and unemployment. In South Africa we are constantly told how we should be more like Brazil. But these intense riots actually highlight that there economic resurgence has major systemic problems.

 

The riots were originally started by people unhappy with the bus fare increase that was implemented to help pay for the football World Cup next year. But then grew as people vociferously objected to other social issues like  general corruption in the government, ineffective health-care and issues around education. One million people rioted in Rio De Janeiro today. Brazil faces some serious civil unrest

 

Anyway the link gives the background to these riots so read that for video's and more detailed information

I find it interesting that you're characterizing these protests as "riots," when Brazil's president Dilma Rousseff has publicly endorsed/backed the protesters. Ignoring the now-cancelled bus fare hike (which would have been a significant financial burden on Rio's many, many poor slumdwellers,) the people involved are essentially the first generation of Brazilians raised in an environment open to freedom of expression after the end of the military dictatorship in 1985. This is a country rife with festering socio-political-economic problems which haven't been addressed.

 

I don't care for CNN as a news source (public radio and the BBC are where I go,) but even they aren't characterizing the situation as "riots."

Edited June 21, 2013 by AGX-17

[Orogun01]

I think it's fascinating how such huge public order issues can be triggered by such seemingly random things.

 

- Turkey - a public park

- Brazil - bus tickets

- American War of Independence - a tiny tax on a luxury drink

 

It occurs to me that it must be like brush fires. The trigger is tiny. But the store of fuel (i.e. resentment and mistrust) must be large.

 

But I'm not sure you should assume it means Brazil isn't improving. The UK went through an incredibly fierce set of revolts and riots as it industrialised. Peterloo massacre, anyone?

Apparently the will of the nations is like an angry woman who snaps over the tiny thing that fills her cup to the limit.

 

At any rate good to see people with the  cojones to riot for an actual noteworthy cause, not just cause gays want to marry.

[BruceVC]

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/20/world/americas/opinion-brazil-simoes

 

Guys this is big news and worries me. One of the reasons being that Brazil is considered a paradigm of how emerging markets should grow there economies and how to address social issues like poverty and unemployment. In South Africa we are constantly told how we should be more like Brazil. But these intense riots actually highlight that there economic resurgence has major systemic problems.

 

The riots were originally started by people unhappy with the bus fare increase that was implemented to help pay for the football World Cup next year. But then grew as people vociferously objected to other social issues like  general corruption in the government, ineffective health-care and issues around education. One million people rioted in Rio De Janeiro today. Brazil faces some serious civil unrest

 

Anyway the link gives the background to these riots so read that for video's and more detailed information

I find it interesting that you're characterizing these protests as "riots," when Brazil's president Dilma Rousseff has publicly endorsed/backed the protesters. Ignoring the now-cancelled bus fare hike (which would have been a significant financial burden on Rio's many, many poor slumdwellers,) the people involved are essentially the first generation of Brazilians raised in an environment open to freedom of expression after the end of the military dictatorship in 1985. This is a country rife with festering socio-political-economic problems which haven't been addressed.

 

I don't care for CNN as a news source (public radio and the BBC are where I go,) but even they aren't characterizing the situation as "riots."

 

 

 

Riots\Protests\Civil Unrest, you can call them what you want. Lets not debate semantics

 

And the story about the Riots\Protests\Civil Unrest is the same on BBC, Sky and Al-Jazeera so I'm not sure why you don't find the CNN link credible?

[Leferd]

I think it's fascinating how such huge public order issues can be triggered by such seemingly random things.

 

- Turkey - a public park

- Brazil - bus tickets

- American War of Independence - a tiny tax on a luxury drink

 

It occurs to me that it must be like brush fires. The trigger is tiny. But the store of fuel (i.e. resentment and mistrust) must be large.

 

But I'm not sure you should assume it means Brazil isn't improving. The UK went through an incredibly fierce set of revolts and riots as it industrialised. Peterloo massacre, anyone?

As a patriotic, liberal leaning, tea guzzling, immigrant Amerikaan ethnic minority; who in a prior life was a Crown Loyalist, I agree.

[Walsingham]

Well, ultimately I don't hold out much hope for Africa. In a global economy - and that's a product of technology not a conspiracy - you have the harshest meritocracy balanced only slightly by rules on capital transfer, and security issues. If you are dirt poor and have sod all education then you get boned.

 

Thinking about it now, the only way that can alter is if there's some way to protect and grow/interlink very very small enterprises. The kind you can make work with two chairs and a sharp pair of scissors and a bicycle.

 

Anyway, my point is that I don't see what on Earth nations like Brazil are supposed to do about a poor underclass. Venezuela went all lefty and all that has happened is they made a load of promises which have gone unfulfilled. And that's with huge fossil fuel reserves to foot the bill.

[Raithe]

Well, ultimately I don't hold out much hope for Africa. In a global economy - and that's a product of technology not a conspiracy - you have the harshest meritocracy balanced only slightly by rules on capital transfer, and security issues. If you are dirt poor and have sod all education then you get boned.

 

Thinking about it now, the only way that can alter is if there's some way to protect and grow/interlink very very small enterprises. The kind you can make work with two chairs and a sharp pair of scissors and a bicycle.

 

Anyway, my point is that I don't see what on Earth nations like Brazil are supposed to do about a poor underclass. Venezuela went all lefty and all that has happened is they made a load of promises which have gone unfulfilled. And that's with huge fossil fuel reserves to foot the bill.

 

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow."

[Gorth]

Anyway, my point is that I don't see what on Earth nations like Brazil are supposed to do about a poor underclass. Venezuela went all lefty and all that has happened is they made a load of promises which have gone unfulfilled. And that's with huge fossil fuel reserves to foot the bill.

That's because he knew how to play the game. If you want to create stability in a poor country, you need 2 things. You need to be seen cracking down on corruption (whether you actually do it or not) and you need to offer people hope of upward mobility (whether real or not).

 

As long as you can do that, people seem to be generally docile and go along with whatever other excentricies you may have.

 

Looks like they failed on one or both points in Brazil.

 

Edit to add: Slightly tangential, but I think (imho) that corruption is the single most contributing factor holding back emerging and third world countries.

[BruceVC]

 

Anyway, my point is that I don't see what on Earth nations like Brazil are supposed to do about a poor underclass. Venezuela went all lefty and all that has happened is they made a load of promises which have gone unfulfilled. And that's with huge fossil fuel reserves to foot the bill.

That's because he knew how to play the game. If you want to create stability in a poor country, you need 2 things. You need to be seen cracking down on corruption (whether you actually do it or not) and you need to offer people hope of upward mobility (whether real or not).

 

As long as you can do that, people seem to be generally docile and go along with whatever other excentricies you may have.

 

Looks like they failed on one or both points in Brazil.

 

Edit to add: Slightly tangential, but I think (imho) that corruption is the single most contributing factor holding back emerging and third world countries.

 

 

Well said Gorthfucius, the corruption point is paramount and also I would say the upward mobility is part of education. That's how you uplift people, you let them uplift themselves through education. That's the biggest issue in South African at the moment. Uneducated people and people who finished grade 12 but are unemployable. Sometimes they can't even speak English

 

PS : You don't often comment on our political discussions, you sagacious and  oracle-like insight is good to hear