Project Eternity 3 : Modern Warfare?

[Cursed_Beaver]

Obviously what triggers this reflection are the guns and gunpowder. It's the fact that you can apparently use some of those laws of physics that are usually ignored in Medieval or most ancient times fantasy.

 They mainly introduced guns to further distinguish themselves from traditional fantasy settings (guns are only one part of the larger effort of course).

 

Before we start  : I am aware we are still centuries away from Modern technology. I know the guns are still primitive and their use very specific.

 

Now this potentially opens the way for further technological improvement, and maybe the development of industrial societies in a few centuries.

The advent of modern warfare : Automatic riffles, sniper riffles, airplanes, drones, Thousands off nukes, radar, advanced logistics... 

 

 

And overall, the prevalence of Modern societies over traditional societies.

 

That basically means that this authentic ''folkloric'' setting isn't endless, and that in a few centuries, even decade, it could completely die, and be replaced by a modern setting.

 

Obviously, pure traditional societies rely on magic to stay relevant , maybe even more viable in the face of potential technological revolutions. But only if magic and technology cannot coexist. Or else everyone will just adopt a mix of the 2 (see shadow run universe).

 

For example : arcanum played that pretty well. Magic and technology were both incompatible, and could not thrive in the same place. That allowed for a clear polarization between Modern, technological civilizations and traditional civilizations. The universe would shift periodically between classical fantasy era, and modern technological era. 

 

 

I haven't followed this project closely enough, and don't feel like reading every comment Obsidian made on the universe (reddit, forums, update, interviews). 

 

How would they intend to handle technological progress? What would limit it? 

And if the laws of the universe allows technological progress : What would compete against it?

 

 

 

 

 

PS : Personally I don't like modern setting, I find ancient settings more appealing, at least when I'm escaping from reality (gaming, books...). Hence why I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Cursed_Beaver

[Tsuga C]

Your fears are a bit overblown.  Firearms technology is in the matchlock stage (late 15th/early 16th Century).  As such, the technological boom of the Industrial Revolution is quite a ways off.  Longbows and lightning bolts will be the norm for this series with firearms being a new and fiddly technology still in its not-ready-for-prime-time stage.

[Cursed_Beaver]

Your fears are a bit overblown.  Firearms technology is in the matchlock stage (late 15th/early 16th Century).  As such, the technological boom of the Industrial Revolution is quite a ways off.  Longbows and lightning bolts will be the norm for this series with firearms being a new and fiddly technology still in its not-ready-for-prime-time stage.

 

I'm going to edit my post to make it more clear.

 

I am aware of the current level of technology. Hence the Project Eternity 3 in the topic : I'm talking about future development of the franchise.

[Tsuga C]

One hopes that it doesn't leap-frog ahead.  I'm content with the Renaissance-type technology Obsidian's spoken of to date.  A Dark Age or Bronze Age game would've been great, but I can certainly enjoy what's currently in the offing so long as the series remains more or less where it is currently.

[Tamerlane]

Project Eternity 3 will take place at the same time as 1. Or before. Or maybe on a different continent where nobody's discovered the wheel. Or maybe it'll be on that different continent, except also with 16th-century explorers mapping out the wilderness. Or maybe in a Rome-has-fallen scenario and technological innovation has stagnated/slid backwards. Or...

 

I wouldn't worry too much about something, like, a decade off.

[cdx]

Just throwing out a few quick (not necessarily good) ones:

 

- Inquisition-type seat of power who offs all the Da Vinchi-s. With magic, strong souls that could lead progress could be easily found and ... displaced, used for other things, etc.

 

- Gunpowder enhancement could be developed that destroys the soul as well as wounding the body - all gunpowder gets outlawed, progress in this direction is halted.

 

- Gods do not allow it (inquisition-style or for completely different reasons)

 

- Steam-powered apparatus (and thus, to a degree, autonomous - can move by itself) could get taken over by wandering souls - steam progress is cut off.

 

And so on...

[rjshae]

Casting my Summon AH-46 Apache spell now...

[JFSOCC]

I'm perfectly cool with being near the start of a renaissance. And the future, well, who knows what it looks like, we won't play it.

[stkaye]

I'd be pretty excited about Eternity 3: The Metal Age. 

[Osvir]

Maybe a magical fantasy disaster occurs (Someone casts "Summon Split Atoms") and we get "Fallout: The Middle Ages", thus, the modern world never reaches Project: Eternity~ who knows.

To speculate just to speculate though:
- Eternity = Late/High 1500's, early 1600's (let's say the game's story occurs during... let's say 5 years to broaden the possibilities of the original's story scope)

 

That'd make the following installments:
-- Eternity 2
IF continuing right after (1605, 5 years story again)
IF making a 100 year leap (1700's)
-- Eternity 3
IF continuing right after (1610, +5 years)
IF making a 100 year leap (1800's)
-- Eternity 4
IF continuing right after (1615, +5 years)
IF making a 100 year leap (1900's)

I'll stop here. Basically, if Project: Eternity wishes to go into modernization, it'd have to make some pretty big leaps that also explains both why it makes big leaps and somehow tie together with the previous installment. Point is, you wouldn't see Project Modern Eternity Warfare until Eternity 5, that is if Eternity would make leaps.

Though I've got to admit, it'd be quite an interesting take on something I've never seen before. Usually the fantasy installments tends to stay in the fantasy genre without progressing their world (much). Graphics are improved (The Elder Scrolls is a good example) but it's still the same static world. As if it never changes, apart from visual effects and eye-candy.

Honestly, been thinking about this more and more lately, a story that has a progressive and growing world. Something that advances across several installments. Now that is something I haven't seen in an RPG. 

I do have an example of something that touches this, Civilization into Alpha Centauri. And from what I've read from the Alpha Centauri reviews and honors, one thing that is a continuing praise is "Alpha Centauri begins where Civilization ends". Now, Project: Eternity is probably not a game that takes place several centuries by itself... but what if several installments could?

Edited April 11, 2013 by Osvir

[Woldan]

Early matchlock muskets weren't that great and effective, I remember reports say that most soldiers from Christopher Colombo's expeditions during the 1490's preferred the crossbow because it was so much faster to load, it wasn't affected by moisture and it had enough punch and accuracy to do the trick, even though firearms were available. Also they could only get off one shot before getting swarmed by angry natives because it took so long to load. 

 

Now in PE we're going to have mages that will be able to cast fireballs, magic missiles etc. no matter the weather conditions - just needing to carry book and waving hands. I don't see a renaissance of firearms coming anytime soon in PE's setting, unless said revolution brings heavy machine guns and cruise missiles. 

[mcmanusaur]

Wow, I think you've managed to figure out Obsidian's evil master plan. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for geniuses like you.

[Barothmuk]

There's a 700 year gap between early firearms and the firearms we have today. I think you'll be fine.

I'd be pretty excited about Eternity 3: The Metal Age. 

Edited April 11, 2013 by Barothmuk

[Cursed_Beaver]

My gripes aren't specifically against guns in themselves. I thought I would make it clear.

 

It's just that I'm wondering what could prevent eternity from ever evolving into a modern world, with internet, cameras, nukes, cars, shopping centers, highway... ?

 

That would obviously be at the complete opposite of what the setting used to be. Some are fines with that, some aren't.

[nikolokolus]

Go look up what a wheel lock firearm is and then come back and talk to me about your concerns over the "modern technology" that will be in this game.

 

Secondly, just because a certain technological level is achieved in one fictional universe, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden it's on the fast track to industrialization.  Hell the thing that really drove industrialization in the late 18th century wasn't the invention of the firearm (which was historically a hand-crafted weapon made by a gunsmith) it was the invention of the steam engine and a ready supply of coal.

 

No matter the technological level of a society, if you don't have a cheap, abundant energy source then food production stays mostly at a subsistence level, populations don't expand geometrically, and industrialization never occurs.

Edited April 11, 2013 by nikolokolus

[spudud]

You're making quite a leap by assuming that the pace of technological advancement in the P:E universe is analogous to any timeline we know of real or otherwise. Not to mention the fact that we have no idea how much time elapses in P:E between each game.

[Faerunner]

Please no. There are so many modern warfare games, the traditional fantasy RPG is practically a dead genre, and P:E was advertised and funded as a revival of that genre. If we wanted to play a modern warfare game, there are already so many titles to choose from. There aren't many old school fantasy RPG's, and I think many of us don't want to lose this one too. Not to mention hundreds, if not thousands of funders would feel angry and betrayed for getting a modern warfare game after paying for a traditional fantasy RPG. (Plus I don't think the creators would do it.)

 

I also love that the folks of P:E are breaking the mold of standard fantasy Medieval European bows and broadswords by adding late Medieval and Renaissance weaponry and technology (and in a way that's believable and appropriate for the world) but I don't want it to turn into a world and genre it isn't. If you want a modern warfare game, then I IMPLORE you to browse through the literally dozens of titles at your local game store and leave this one alone.

 

EDIT: I looked more closely and see that you're not necessarily saying this game should be a modern warfare. Still, I think the developers would have to go through a serious time skip and a lot of canon blasphemy to get to the "modern" stage you're talking about. It took about 500-600 years for our real, magic-free world to go from the one-shot musket Renaissance to modern war era. The people of P:E have magic, diverse sapient races, likely fantastic creatures (beasts, spirits, golems, ents, etc) and various gods to interfere with their lives. I seriously doubt the so-called "traditional" would slip away like a dream (not when the resident mages, spirits and gods can put up a fight) and I doubt we could go from "traditional" to "modern" within just a few sequels unless--again--the developers wanted to go through centuries worth of time skips to get to that period. I both doubt they would do it and hope they don't.

 

DOUBLE EDIT: You also seem to be making the assumption that magic/traditional and modern/technology are glued together and mutually exclusive from each other. That "tradition" can only involve "magic" and "modern" can only involve "technology," and the two cannot mix in any way. While this is very common in fiction, I don't think it's right to assume it's the same for this world. That "tradition" can only involve magic and no form of technology (which is ridiculous because the bow and the blade were new technologies once) and society has to forsake magic in order to gain new technologies or social advancement (which I can't understand because magic and fantastical races can inspire social and/or technological change).

 

Magic-induced stasis aside, I see no reason why both the fantastical and the technological can't continue to grow in the world of P:E. Dare I say it: feed each other? If magic and technology don't get along (which I'll assume they might not since the developers have hinted that people seem to be creating technology as a way to fight magic) it's more than possible the traditional will rise to the new technological challenge rather than shrink away. For example, based on what the developers seem to have hinted: magic is more powerful than the blade, so muggles invent bullets, so wizards start wearing more armor, so (maybe) muggles invent better bullets, so (maybe) wizards create more efficient magic. It goes back to my theory that "magic" isn't passively fading in the presence of the "modern." That "tradition" and "technology" aren't mutually exclusive (as the traditional mages are taking advantage of new technologies to fight new technologies). And that the two might be improving each other rather than one simply sitting back and letting the other swallow it whole.

 

I feel like your theory only works if we assume that "tradition"/"magic" and "technology"/"modern" are mutually exclusive and one passively lets the other crush it, rather than mixing and challenging each other. And again, it took centuries for us to get where we are now without magic, fantastic creatures or gods getting involved with our daily lives. How on earth can it happen in this world with these?

Edited April 11, 2013 by Faerunner

[Osvir]

^Be that as it may that there are tons of Modern Warfare FPS games, just stating the obvious that there really is no "Modern Warfare: The Isometric RTwP 6-Party Members RPG in Old-School D&D Spirit" that I can think of.

Just saying (not a request).

[AGX-17]

 

 

Your fears are a bit overblown.  Firearms technology is in the matchlock stage (late 15th/early 16th Century).  As such, the technological boom of the Industrial Revolution is quite a ways off.  Longbows and lightning bolts will be the norm for this series with firearms being a new and fiddly technology still in its not-ready-for-prime-time stage.

 

I'm going to edit my post to make it more clear.

 

I am aware of the current level of technology. Hence the Project Eternity 3 in the topic : I'm talking about future development of the franchise.

 

 

Since when was it a franchise? They haven't even made or officially named the game yet. Besides which, what's your basis for panicking over a nonexistent threat? Baldur's Gate II didn't take place in a gritty urban Shadowrun-style environment. This is Obsidian, not Activision, even if they did advance to an industrial revolution setting in a sequel it would almost inevitably be well done if Obsidian's staff remained more or less the same. They sure as hell couldn't come up with anything worse than Arcanum.

Go look up what a wheel lock firearm is and then come back and talk to me about your concerns over the "modern technology" that will be in this game.

 

Secondly, just because a certain technological level is achieved in one fictional universe, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden it's on the fast track to industrialization.  Hell the thing that really drove industrialization in the late 18th century wasn't the invention of the firearm (which was historically a hand-crafted weapon made by a gunsmith) it was the invention of the steam engine and a ready supply of coal.

 

No matter the technological level of a society, if you don't have a cheap, abundant energy source then food production stays mostly at a subsistence level, populations don't expand geometrically, and industrialization never occurs.

The industrial revolution was started by multiple factors, a number of which predated the earliest industrial use of steam power, i.e. economy of scale/mass production and the emergent economic system of capitalism (see An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith, 1776.) Water power was the initial power source of the industrial revolution. Steam power was a great magnifier of power, but it wasn't "The Culprit." Technological advancement is an ongoing process, like evolution, not a series of fixed points. Many of the technologies that are recognized as revolutionizing a given era were often invented "before their time" by forgotten geniuses, i.e. 19th century Britain's Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace. The practical applications of steam power for locomotion were overlooked for decades after the invention of the first steam locomotive. Edited April 11, 2013 by AGX-17

[Tagaziel]

I'd certainly like to see a piece of art musing how would the Project Eternity world look with our current tech level.

[Alexjh]

To be fair, the existance of magic itself would probably be enough to throw development way off - you have to remember that our current technology isn't necessarily the only way technology could end up that any fantasy setting is inextricably moving towards.  The main reason for the development and success of crossbows, and then guns is that it is a mechanism that let's you put a deadly projectile weapon in the hands of a fairly inexperienced person and it is a legitimate threat to anyone on the battlefield.  Insert magic into the mix and it changes things up a bit, not only insofar as being protected from little lumps of metal would presumably far easier when you can have forcefields, deflecting winds and turn yourself into metal etc, but also it's fairly likely that someone would work out how to produce some sort of magical weaponry that was more effective.  If you even just managed to mass produce something that was essentially a wand in the format of a gun which produced something like D&D style magic missile or fireballs, then there is a good chance that guns would never really get off the ground as they'd be redundant before they got a chance to be developed further.

 

Similarly, pretty much all modern technology was developed in a line from fossil fuel powered electricity and developed forward - if you have magic around, fossil fuels are way less conveniant (you have to mine them etc) and so much of modern technology doesn't spring up.  It's arguably a justification for why most medieval fantasy is medieval, it's essentially the same as if you gave someone from the Dark Ages some modern technology - they are living in a world where "magic" (as a technology) is several degress more advanced the ambient level of technology, and so there would be less incentive for scientific development, missing out discovering many of the core technologies that are important for the development of things. 

[Tagaziel]

Why would technology be less convenient? There'd always be a market for technologies that don't rely on finicky magic and produce the desired results cheaply and efficiently. Say, lighting, plumbing, medicine, construction, transportation, communications etc. 

[Cursed_Beaver]

People, my OP isn't clear?

 

It's not about the primitive guns! It's not about a fear that modern society is at the gate!

 

It's just a concern that all this could potentially happen,in 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 10 000 years. It's just that, as opposed to some other fantasy settings I know, Modernity is not out of the question. 

 

Contrary to the popular belief, coherent, authentic and believable fantasy settings in video games are very rare. Project Eternity is one, it would be a shame if it went all cyberpunk/sci-fi/modern/steampunk in some time leap sequel.

[Cursed_Beaver]

DOUBLE EDIT: You also seem to be making the assumption that magic/traditional and modern/technology are glued together and mutually exclusive from each other. That "tradition" can only involve "magic" and "modern" can only involve "technology," and the two cannot mix in any way. While this is very common in fiction, I don't think it's right to assume it's the same for this world. That "tradition" can only involve magic and no form of technology (which is ridiculous because the bow and the blade were new technologies once) and society has to forsake magic in order to gain new technologies or social advancement (which I can't understand because magic and fantastical races can inspire social and/or technological change).

 

Magic-induced stasis aside, I see no reason why both the fantastical and the technological can't continue to grow in the world of P:E. Dare I say it: feed each other? If magic and technology don't get along (which I'll assume they might not since the developers have hinted that people seem to be creating technology as a way to fight magic) it's more than possible the traditional will rise to the new technological challenge rather than shrink away. For example, based on what the developers seem to have hinted: magic is more powerful than the blade, so muggles invent bullets, so wizards start wearing more armor, so (maybe) muggles invent better bullets, so (maybe) wizards create more efficient magic. It goes back to my theory that "magic" isn't passively fading in the presence of the "modern." That "tradition" and "technology" aren't mutually exclusive (as the traditional mages are taking advantage of new technologies to fight new technologies). And that the two might be improving each other rather than one simply sitting back and letting the other swallow it whole.

 

I feel like your theory only works if we assume that "tradition"/"magic" and "technology"/"modern" are mutually exclusive and one passively lets the other crush it, rather than mixing and challenging each other. And again, it took centuries for us to get where we are now without magic, fantastic creatures or gods getting involved with our daily lives. How on earth can it happen in this world with these?

 

 

My reasoning is that, technology can catch up with magic, and completely exceed it, making magic obsolete. 

If you look at a modern army, let's say the american one, It's difficult to imagine an army of mage and magic-sword fighting warriors waring against it. Or they can, but then we have fallen in some heavy ultra high fantasy stuff.

 

The problem is that if magic and technology mix, there's not much point in magic anymore, since it's just another physical force, and Magitech heavy universe are basically disguised science fiction. They don't give the same feeling.

 

By traditional fantasy, I mean a fantasy with only ancient civilization and no modern technology. It's not really about magic or not. Magic could be minimal or even inexistent (lowest fantasies).

And I believe that makes a huge difference on how the whole world feels. An ancient society that can compete with a modern society is basically a modern society herself (even if it still uses some magic). Modernity can arise, and supplant everything (in 500, 10 000, 100 000... years). 

 

Unless Technology is seriously inhibited by something else.

 

Example 1 : even the smallest magic presence perturbs the surrounding space, making it impossible for any ''refined'' and precise technology to work (even if it's solely mechanical) . Which means only big bulky guns, trebuchet... could work around a magical item/mage/warrior/whatever. 

 

Example 2 : The very nature of the gods makes them despise modernity. And they, and maybe other magical/folkloric elements, will work against it.

 

In that case, technology would just never further evolve than primitive applications. And the world will max out at a renaissance level.

[nikolokolus]

People, my OP isn't clear?

 

It's not about the primitive guns! It's not about a fear that modern society is at the gate!

 

It's just a concern that all this could potentially happen,in 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 10 000 years. It's just that, as opposed to some other fantasy settings I know, Modernity is not out of the question. 

 

Contrary to the popular belief, coherent, authentic and believable fantasy settings in video games are very rare. Project Eternity is one, it would be a shame if it went all cyberpunk/sci-fi/modern/steampunk in some time leap sequel.

 

Assuming this is a fictional universe subject to the whims of its creators and not "natural" forces of technological revolution, I'd say your fears are baseless.