Torment: Tides of Numenera

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 I've nothing against the people funding the projects or the crowd financing system itself.

 

I disapprove of InXile's greed, marketing tactics and lack of at least one worthwhile game under their belt.

 

They could have just as easily delivered Wasteland 2 first so we can finally eat that pudding, before launching the Torment project.

Yeah, it's a little weird but the market is there. If people are so willing to fund it then how can you blame the company?

 

I'm not really a fan of the stretch goal thing tho. Keep paying a bit more and more and we promise the game will be longer AND better!! Eh, that's already getting old.

 

People would have been willing to finance anybody who would make a game with even a tenuous connection to Torment. All they would need is one or two familiar names to assure the public and aggressive marketing.  It was just a matter of rushing in to be the first to do that - and waiting for the money to start raining.

 

The thing is, my spider sense tells me InXile has very big dollar signs in their eyes and very little actual passion for the project. 

 

From the one video I've seen of Wasteland 2, the actual results of their work are less impressive than their promises.

 

I have  more faith in Project Eternity. Not because I have faith in Obsidian itself - it has made a fair share of disappointing titles, but because it seems a more honest, more or less original project that doesn't piggyback on anything else. That tells me they believe in their idea and that they're ready to work twice as hard to appeal to the same demographic - because enthusing people for something other than what they're already used to is hard. 

[Labadal]

The Project Eternity Kickstarter told us very clearly that it would be a game in the vein of the IE games. But wich one? Baldur's Gate? Planescape: Torment? Icewind Dale? It can't be all at once. It was very clear that Project Eternity was aimed at a certain group, and Obsidian probably knew that there were a lot of us that would fork out the cash for such a game. The entire pitch video played on nostalgia trips.

 

What makes Torment so different? Is it because they use the word Torment? I'd supported the game either way. Is it because I think inXile is a great studio? Not at all. It is because there are enough names involved in the project that I am a fan of. Small roles or not, the people involved makes me excited. McComb, Saunders, Ziets, Mitsoda, Avellone, Morgan. They might not make a game as good as Planescape, I don't think they will, butI am happy that we are getting an rpg that uses a new setting and explores themes that could be interesting.

[Elerond]

I have  more faith in Project Eternity. Not because I have faith in Obsidian itself - it has made a fair share of disappointing titles, but because it seems a more honest, more or less original project that doesn't piggyback on anything else. That tells me they believe in their idea and that they're ready to work twice as hard to appeal to the same demographic - because enthusing people for something other than what they're already used to is hard. 

 

PE says that it aims to be spiritual successor of IE games (IWDs, BGs and PS:T)

T:ToN says that it aims to be spiritual successor of PS:T

 

PE will be placed in new world that Obsidian will develop (which they have little proven experience, but they have veteran team that is worked and expanded other settings)

T:ToN will be placed in new world which is alredy mostly develped by Monte Cook (one of the main designer or Planescape setting, and who have long experience for creating RPG settings), and it's team also has other designer from PS setting, who have long experience in RPG setting creation field.

 

PE will use ne ruleset designed by Obsidian (mostly Saywer)

T:Ton will use new ruleset designed by Monte Cook and adapted by inXile and Monte Cook for computer games.

 

To me they both look quite similar projects, veteran teams making new and improved version of games that made in past, but same time trying to bring back things that made those games such that people still over decade later say that they were some of the best games ever made.

[Huinehtar]

Sure, giving interviews, having some music, work-in-progress screenshots and videos, uservoice fora, are agressive mass marketing. They had to give some doritos to journalists, or to pay for tweets.

Some writers for a story-telling game in pre-production phase? Nonsense. They are juste names for fanboys. Indeed.

And there are so many games about philosophical themes. Why another one?

Look at their KS page! There is only one sentence: "give us money because it's Torment." What a shame.

Greed. Absolutely.

 

 

[Troll off]

Yes, there are some 'bad' points for the Torment KS campaign:

- running a KS campaign before WL2's release

- maybe, the countdown show was a bit impersonal, at least compared to the PE's one

 

I thought that interviews during the countdown was a better explanation about "Who are these people? Why do they seem so popular, and why do people pledge after reading they are involved in the project?".

KS for pre-production campaign has been already discussed the whole month. There are pros and cons. I understand your point. But greed? Really?

WL2's video may have disappointed you, but beta is not available yet. Can we judge the game with it, only? Maybe it will be a good game or a bad game, but we don't know yet.

 

I have faith in both projects. Because from what I see, I am confident that Obsidian and InXile will give good games. Yes, I have to admit that I am more confident for PE, because there are some 30 more updates now. But I am not trustless about Torment. Just wait and see.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

One of the possible parties consists of a magic-item-eating, crippled junkie, a ball of goo, and a former clergyman who summons cthulhoid abominations through his forearm tattoos. (Plus the main character.) Also, Numenera is a ripoff of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series. Promising enough for me. (Not to mention the fact that Avellone will presumably keep the folks working on it in line.)

[Drowsy Emperor]

 Also, Numenera is a ripoff of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series. Promising enough for me. 

 

It is? Where did you get this?

 

BoNS is my favorite fantasy work.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 Also, Numenera is a ripoff of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series. Promising enough for me. 

 

It is? Where did you get this?

 

BoNS is my favorite fantasy work.

 

They said it in one of the reddit Q&As. Here.

[Elerond]

 

 Also, Numenera is a ripoff of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series. Promising enough for me. 

 

It is? Where did you get this?

 

BoNS is my favorite fantasy work.

 

Numenera setting is science fantasy setting, similar to Book of the New Sun's setting

Edited April 7, 2013 by Elerond

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 Also, Numenera is a ripoff of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series. Promising enough for me. 

 

It is? Where did you get this?

 

BoNS is my favorite fantasy work.

 

They said it in one of the reddit Q&As. Here.

 

 

Cook sure knows how to pick his influences. I was wondering when something akin to Shadow of the Torturer would show up.

 

Of course, WH40K and Fading Suns (among others) are kinda similar but just not the same.

 

The concept art on the Numenera website suggests a setting leaning more towards science fiction though. The art and the class system are a bit too generic for my tastes.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Of course, WH40K and Fading Suns (among others) are kinda similar but just not the same.

 

The concept art on the Numenera website suggests a setting leaning more towards science fiction though. The art and the class system are a bit too generic for my tastes.

 

On this note, I'd very much welcome a W40K crpg along the lines of the Dark Heresy tabletop game.

 

Well, they said the sci-fi elements will be heavily dependent on what class do you choose, and what Tides you align yourself with. A Blue Tide-oriented Nano will probably be able to decipher much more than a Glaive focusing on the Red Tide.

[alanschu]

 

What makes Torment so different? Is it because they use the word Torment?

 

The difference (for me) is that one is an appeal on a mechanical level (how will the game play), while the other is an appeal based on the content in the game (what is it that you will experience in the game).

 

 

When I first played Torment, the only thing I really knew was what it was going to be like mechanically (since I was familiar with IE).  The execution of content within those mechanics was completely surprising for me, which I felt helped my impression of the game.  By calling the new one Torment, I am now expecting something of Torment's quality, which is a high bar to reach.

 

Note that misleading mechanical expectations can still annoy me (Bioshock wasn't a spiritual successor for System Shock 2.  Despite being a good game, I enjoyed Bioshock less than I would have otherwise).  But what excites me about Project Eternity is that it's content is novel to me, and for all I know they might hit a formula that is even more appealing than PST is to me.  I might critique the game mechanics compared to the Infinity Engine, but that's an easier hurdle to exceed than PST's narrative.  Now Torment can easily have better mechanics than PST, but it's clear to me that the mechanics of PST are a non-issue for me.

[entrerix]

 

Some people sing the praises of PS:T; I'm not one of them.

You know, it's interesting. Me, and many, many other people will always hail Planescape Torment as one of the best games EVER. But if one takes a piece of paper and objectively writes down the pros and cons of PS:T, They come to a strange realization: On paper, Planescape Torment is a horrible game.

 

Consider the gameplay mechanics:

 

1)extremely limited character customization - no armor choices, no race choices, no class choices at the beginning, and even later you only have 3 very *bland*, uninspired classes to choose from (fighter, theif or mage)

 

2) The combat is utter crap. even the most ardent PS:T fan admits that this is PS:T's weakest point.

 

3) The game is filled to capacity with fetch-quests. In the Hive, you are, quite literally a messenger from start to finish (go talk to this guy, go deliver this message to that guy, go find this, go get that. Over and over and over. And this doesn't change from chapter to chapter nor is it limited to just side quests (the Bronze sphere is a fetch quest).

 

4)Arcade-game-like tedium (see: the modron cube. which, btw, you can do over and over again. And for that matter, *every* dungeon respawns) And the dungeons themselves are simple, single-level maps. (see: under sigil, curst prison; Hive catacombs)

 

 

 

It's a testiment to PS:T's outstanding storyline and world richness that 1-4 are dismissed away as nothing of consequence. That they're all acceptable features in an RPG according to the 'old schoolers', and in some cases, seen as wonderful parts of the game! I can assure you though, that these are not the *current* standards of anyone on this forum. If Josh Sawyer comes here tomorrow and announces that Project Eternity will not allow your protagonist to wear armor, or use Ranged weapons, and that the Infinite Dungeon will be just as mindless and monotonous as the Modron cube, it'll cause a sh** storm. It will constitute something UNACCEPTABLE. But again, Planescape got away with it....

 

 

in my younger days, i would have written a lot about this post, and how much i disagree with most of it.  now i just keep looking for an "unlike" button, and, upon not finding one, comment as follows:  unlike.

[Tigranes]

It reads like a horrible game because you wrote down only the cons, and you wrote them down in a negative way. E.g. character customisation is quantitatively limited but is unique and colourful. I wouldn't say it's 'better' than other games, but for Torment it fit well and it was a source of enjoyment to me, not a flaw.

 

One thing I've always found interesting about the combat is that I suspect fans of the, let's say, 95-'05 RPG generation actually have a remarkably high tolerance for bad combat. In one sense or another, most RPGs from this period have bad combat. Arcanum is terribly balanced. KOTOR1/2 is terribly easy and based around too few mechanics that are all implemented badly. NWN1/2 was clunky as hell. Divine Divinity is grindy-Diablo. Torment is not actually terrible, just completely mediocre in every way, which is pretty bad. And so forth. 

[Labadal]

 

 

What makes Torment so different? Is it because they use the word Torment?

The difference (for me) is that one is an appeal on a mechanical level (how will the game play), while the other is an appeal based on the content in the game (what is it that you will experience in the game).

 

 

When I first played Torment, the only thing I really knew was what it was going to be like mechanically (since I was familiar with IE). The execution of content within those mechanics was completely surprising for me, which I felt helped my impression of the game. By calling the new one Torment, I am now expecting something of Torment's quality, which is a high bar to reach.

 

Note that misleading mechanical expectations can still annoy me (Bioshock wasn't a spiritual successor for System Shock 2. Despite being a good game, I enjoyed Bioshock less than I would have otherwise). But what excites me about Project Eternity is that it's content is novel to me, and for all I know they might hit a formula that is even more appealing than PST is to me. I might critique the game mechanics compared to the Infinity Engine, but that's an easier hurdle to exceed than PST's narrative. Now Torment can easily have better mechanics than PST, but it's clear to me that the mechanics of PST are a non-issue for me.

Late reply.

 

I understand your viewpoint and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. You're right that Project Eternity talked about the mechanical side of things. Torment: ToN on the other hand talks about being similar to Planescape: Torment. That does make people expect a great story with interesting characters and an unusual world. It also means that they will try to go deeper on some interesting themes and maybe have a more personal story. Will the element of surprise be as big as the one for PS:T? No. Will it tackle the same themes? Who knows? All I know is that a lot of people that worked on PS: T are involved and that this is the only shot at a spiritual successor for that game is this, and I want to be a part of it. The game could still turn out to be a piece of ****, but I choose to believe. That is the reason I backed P:E, because it was described as a spiritual successor to the IE games and it was developed by Obsidian. It could also turn out to be a piece of crap, but if I truly thought that, then I wouldn't have backed these projects.

[alanschu]

Note, I have backed Torment.  I want it to be awesome too.  (I want every game to be awesome).

 

It's a personal taste.  The exact same game with no expectation will often be regarded higher by myself, in my experience.  Now, there's a few things... it possibly wouldn't have received the same amount of funding if it wasn't called Torment, so any assumption that it would have been the same game is not accurate.  I'm also, in general, not that big of a fan of sequels.  I usually look at a game like Planescape: Torment and say "Thank goodness this was made instead of a sequel."

 

 

 

All I know is that a lot of people that worked on PS: T are involved and that this is the only shot at a spiritual successor for that game is this, and I want to be a part of it.

 

I find this interesting, because I actually had considered Project Eternity to having an excellent shot at delivering something that could amaze me as well as Planescape: Torment did.  From a thematic point of view, actually, I see no reason why Project Eternity couldn't deliver on the checklist Torment had.

Edited April 8, 2013 by alanschu

[Labadal]

I do think Eternity can amaze me too, that's why I put an insane amount of money (for me) in that Project. If Tides of Numenera was made by Obsidian, I would have doubled the pledge I have in it. My Torment pledge isn't even close to my Eternity pledge.

 

What I thought was interesting with the two pitches is that the Eternity pitch is more general: Spiritual successor to IE games while the Tides of Numenera is more specific. It makes it a bit more clear what Tides of Numenera wants to achieve.

 

When I read that Project Etetnity was an IE inspired game, I was so happy. Then I started to think: Will it be like Baldur's Gate (my guess), Torment or Icewind Dale? Or will it combine all that is best from each game and combine them into one awesome soup of rpg greatness?

[Labadal]

It is true the Torment name helped them getting more funds. I just try not to look into it too much. I don't like it on a personal level, but I'm glad it made them enough money to add some interesting stretch goals.

[duskwind]

I find this interesting, because I actually had considered Project Eternity to having an excellent shot at delivering something that could amaze me as well as Planescape: Torment did.

I'm expecting Eternity to be more like Baldur's Gate; they're different styles of game, not just different in quality.

[alanschu]

I don't know, as I replay KOTOR 2 and the like, I suspect the quality of writing and character reactivity in decision making to be closer to PST.  I do agree that it'll probably have better gameplay than PST (I trust Josh as the project lead and mechanics guru).

[melkathi]

I would hope that both games will have better gameplay than a game as old as PS:T. Gampleay seems a bit easier to evaluate objectively than writting, so I would expect developers to have made more noticeable and broadly welcomed progress in that part

[Blarghagh]

I don't know this setting but I thought the main character conceit of an abandoned body taking up a new consciousness is quite nifty

[Tsuga C]

I don't know this setting but I thought the main character conceit of an abandoned body taking up a new consciousness is quite nifty

 

This maintains the continuity with Planescape: Torment, albeit with many bodies developing new personalities instead of one body developing a series of different personalities.  It's kind of a photographic negative of the original idea.

[melkathi]

I think it does give the writers some itneresting possibilities to explore.

I will try to not read anything else about the story though so I can find out things when the game is ready. Bad enough I know that I'll be the discarded shell of a body-hopping immortal

[Amentep]

Yeah I'm trying to minimize what I find out about the story myself.

[melkathi]

That's why I don't really read backer updates for anything but Dead State, where Brian told us he would not do story spoilers of any sorts