Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes and Women in Gaming

[alanschu]

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

 

  Edited March 15, 2013 by alanschu

[Oner]

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

*sigh* That Sarkeesian nonsense is causing me no end of headaches.

[alanschu]

Hahaha.

 

Outside of the initial reaction and occasional resurgence of topic, I haven't followed her too closely.  I do think Cliff has a point, however.

 

I watched Anita's video today and had no real beef with it.  Some of the stuff was disappointing (Rare's game, for example) for a variety of reasons.  Although the reaction of the extreme does lead me to want her series to be absurdly successful just to spite them haha.

[Tagaziel]

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

 

CliffyB and David Cage on games growing up? Seems like the art of rectal oration is blooming.

[Oner]

I watched her video and an older Bayonetta "review"  of hers. I'd like to discuss her video, but I talked with a few female friends and came to two conclusions: she is right, everyone who disagrees is wrong, and at best I get headaches, at worst stares. Not really worth the effort imo. I mean really, in the comments to your link, a WOMAN was talked down for DARING to disagree and disliking her.

Let's just say that her point would have more merit if she wasn't dissecting a 20(?) year old children's game about a stereotypical personalityless Italian (who grows huge from mushrooms) trying to save the personalityless princess* of the mushroom people who got kidnapped by the evil turtle (yes I know hey are supposed to be kappa) kingdom and their personalityless boss. Doesn't even have a plot! It's just silly imo, and the gaming industry has come a LONG way since then.

From my chats it seems to me that it's not the DiD that's the problem. It's that women aren't the protagonists. Which is true, there should be more, but I don't see how she/they want to change this if they focus on an antiquidated concept in an antique game, and frankly, ignoring every other positive trait that character may have. One friend of mine dismissed Lara Croft on the ground of her being a sex symbol, completely ignoring her personality and character. I mean really, at least give credit where it's due.

 

Also, I hate -isms.

 

Damn, I still ended up talking about the issue. -.-

 

*If instead of her being kidnapped, Bowser had stolen her IMPORTANT SCEPTER there would still be complaints as to why she sends Mario instead of getting it back herself.

 

 

 

In unrelated news: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70755535/dead-state-the-zombie-survival-rpg/posts/428649?ref=activity

Dead State update! \o/

Edited March 15, 2013 by Oner

[HoonDing]

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

All that bullying ensured that she received enough attention to get funded, while in the meantime Warlord Gromug got left behind.

 

http://http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/tropes-vs-da-orkz-in-vidya-gamez?website_name=waaaaaaaaaaaaagh

[AwesomeOcelot]

 

 

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

 

CliffyB and David Cage on games growing up? Seems like the art of rectal oration is blooming.

 

 

If games growing up are QTE sex simulators that are very similar to hentai games mechanically, press A to thrust, then I don't ever ever want them to grow up.

 

And talking about "women getting kidnapped" as a sexist trope, it's exploiting romantic relationships with characters to become a goal, games now seem to go for the "Taken" route of exploiting the parent/guardian child relationship, and these same people slurp that watery excrement up all day long, as demonstrated by CliffyB. You get that a lot in RPG's "my husband/wife/children have been kidnapped by raiders/gnomes/goblins". Sonic, Streets of Rage 2, Abe's Odyssey, Fallout 2 are counter examples. I think this is just one of many examples where there's no reasoned argument, just assertions about why something is the way it is, and a giant list of games. Why is the formula so popular? Game developers are have been extremely unoriginal when it comes to plot.

 

Males game way more than females in terms of "core" gaming. Males generally prefer male protagonists. I never actually cared as long as the character was good, if I got to choose I'd pick female at least half the time. Game designers don't seem to pander to my wishes, why should they pander to female gamers wishes when they're a minority?

Edited March 15, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[Cultist]

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

That reminds me about Blizzard's attempt to enforce RealID and the magnificent fail that followed. Or old clowns like Joe Lieberman.

[alanschu]

Let's just say that her point would have more merit if she wasn't dissecting a 20(?) year old children's game about a stereotypical personalityless Italian (who grows huge from mushrooms) trying to save the personalityless princess* of the mushroom people who got kidnapped by the evil turtle (yes I know hey are supposed to be kappa) kingdom and

their personalityless boss. Doesn't even have a plot! It's just silly imo, and the gaming industry has come a LONG way since then.

 

Errr, her point with that was that the damsel in distress trope has its roots in early gaming, and she illustrated that the theme of Peach being captured has remained the central motivation for the game in 13 of 14 different iterations of Mario games, and that the trope continues today.  Though she does acknowledge that the mere existence of this trope in a game doesn't mean that a game must be sexist.

 

 

 

Which is true, there should be more, but I don't see how she/they want to change this if they focus on an antiquidated concept in an antique game, and frankly, ignoring every other positive trait that character may have. One friend of mine dismissed Lara Croft on the ground of her being a sex symbol, completely ignoring her personality and character. I mean really, at least give credit where it's due.

 

Eh, the original Lara Croft still focused heavily on Male Gaze.  I think it got worse as the series progressed initially.

 

A review by a Mary Sue writer details her experiences (and epiphany) with the Tomb Raider series and how her perspective of it changed as she got older and was exposed to the different games (she agreed that lara was amazing and awesome with the first game), and the reservations she had with the new game and how she ends up loving what the game did with Lara's character in this one.  An enjoyable read.

Edited March 15, 2013 by alanschu

[Nonek]

Watching the tropes versus women video and I was left with a rather poor impression, this comment seems to sum it up:

 

Dry as dust pointless rehash of games history for the first ten minutes, badly needs editing and some direction.
On podium preaching towards the last few minutes, rather clumsily handled, very condescending.
Needs better subject matter than a couple of childs games.
Drop the ridiculous earrings.
Needs better diction from the presenter they've hired, sounds a little whiny, might try a trained actress with recieved pronunciation.
Needs the issue examined from all sides not just a female feminist one, either by an objective opinion or an opposing argument, otherwise the few points she makes are just preaching.
The man playing as Damsel in Distress is merely swept aside, but anyone familiar with gaming will recall being rescued repeatedly by women friends such as: Kreia, Deoinarra, Annah of the Shadows, Ravel Puzzlewell, Flemeth, Morrigan, Imoen, Bastila Shan, Mona Sax, Victoria from Thief, Triss Merigold, Saskia, Philippa Eilheart and I could go on.
Bloated and needs more bullet points, emphasising key arguments along the way.

In summation i'm not very impressed, this issue needs a better more concise spokeperson and far higher production values and editing, i'm at a loss as to where the kickstarter money has been utilised.

Edit: Oh and I notice the young lady said crap at one point, resorting to profanity on a subject is not the way, cut that out of the script.           

[HoonDing]

New Lara acts frightened and vulnerable in cutscenes, yet in actual gameplay acts as a FemRambo who mows down hordes of mooks.

They should either have focused gameplay more on stealth and/or drastically tone down the violence and focus more on the core of the series: exploring huge tombs and solving puzzles.

 

But new Lara is still better than the Lara fraught with mommy and daddy issues from the previous Crystal Dynamics games.

[Malcador]

Sarkessian's video made me wonder what's everyone in a huff about, wasn't much in the way of anything I haven't heard before and the presentation itself was rather dull. Heh, I wonder if she'll ever look at The Witcher - should be an amusing video.

[Fighter]

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If Video Games Are Going to Grow Up, Then the Bullying Needs to Stop

 

Where were all these knights in shining armour when Jack Thompson was being flamed by the same trolls?

 

 

New Lara acts frightened and vulnerable in cutscenes, yet in actual gameplay acts as a FemRambo who mows down hordes of mooks.

 

In the same cutscenes she says how shockingly easy it is. I thought vulnerable but not incapable. I didn't really have a problem outside of realism. But then who cares.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Fighter

[alanschu]

Sarkessian's video made me wonder what's everyone in a huff about, wasn't much in the way of anything I haven't heard before and the presentation itself was rather dull. Heh, I wonder if she'll ever look at The Witcher - should be an amusing video.

 

I actually agree that the video seemed rather conservative and safe in its approach.  To be fair as well, some of my coworkers comment that the later games actually poke fun at the whole "Peach always gets kidnapped" thing as well.

[alanschu]

 

Where were all these knights in shining armour when Jack Thompson was being flamed by the same trolls?

 

The response to Jack Thompson is still typically just as bad, but you're right that it's a bit of a double standard when the target of the ire is more uniformly agreed upon.  Thompson had the unfortunate perspective of taking a very extreme stance on the games being "murder simulators" and with his whole getting disbarred shortly afterwards, ended up fading into irrelevance.

 

The principle difference with Anita and Jack, in my opinion, is that Anita just wanted to investigate female tropes in video games (since she is a female gamer. Her perspective/concern is hardly new) and has been much more moderate in her assessment, whereas Jack Thompson was on a hellbent crusade to show how violent video games creates violent people (a proposition that already has a lot of research done to illustrate this isn't the case).

[Nordicus]

New Lara acts frightened and vulnerable in cutscenes, yet in actual gameplay acts as a FemRambo who mows down hordes of mooks.

There's actually a word for that: Ludonarrative dissonance

 

Edited for example:

 

Edited March 15, 2013 by Nordicus

[Fighter]

The principle difference with Anita and Jack, in my opinion, is that Anita just wanted to investigate female tropes in video games (since she is a female gamer. Her perspective/concern is hardly new) and has been much more moderate in her assessment, whereas Jack Thompson was on a hellbent crusade to show how violent video games creates violent people (a proposition that already has a lot of research done to illustrate this isn't the case).

 

And the other difference is back then no one painted with the same brush anyone who disagrees with the idiots who send death threats.

[alanschu]

 

New Lara acts frightened and vulnerable in cutscenes, yet in actual gameplay acts as a FemRambo who mows down hordes of mooks.

There's actually a word for that: Ludonarrative dissonance

 

I haven't actually played the game, but I hear it kind of evolves the interactions as the game goes on (Similar to SpecOps) where the enemies are more ostensibly afraid of the fact that Lara is still alive and Lara evolves to being more confrontational and aggressive as well.

[Raithe]

Heh, did you see the bit about the father who hacked his daughters version of Donkey Kong, so it's now Pauline who rescues Mario?

[alanschu]

Yup!  Thought it was interesting haha.

[Oner]

 

Where were all these knights in shining armour when Jack Thompson was being flamed by the same trolls?

 

The response to Jack Thompson is still typically just as bad, but you're right that it's a bit of a double standard when the target of the ire is more uniformly agreed upon.  Thompson had the unfortunate perspective of taking a very extreme stance on the games being "murder simulators" and with his whole getting disbarred shortly afterwards, ended up fading into irrelevance.

 

The principle difference with Anita and Jack, in my opinion, is that Anita just wanted to investigate female tropes in video games (since she is a female gamer. Her perspective/concern is hardly new) and has been much more moderate in her assessment, whereas Jack Thompson was on a hellbent crusade to show how violent video games creates violent people (a proposition that already has a lot of research done to illustrate this isn't the case).

I'd like to say that post Jack Thompson people possibly just got fed up with the constant crap flinging that went over video games, but..

How should I know what a few ten-million people think.

 

 

Heh,

did you see the bit about the father who hacked his daughters version

of Donkey Kong, so it's now Pauline who rescues Mario?

Yep, was cute.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Oner

[Oner]

 

Let's just say that her point would have more merit if she wasn't dissecting a 20(?) year old children's game about a stereotypical personalityless Italian (who grows huge from mushrooms) trying to save the personalityless princess* of the mushroom people who got kidnapped by the evil turtle (yes I know hey are supposed to be kappa) kingdom and

their personalityless boss. Doesn't even have a plot! It's just silly imo, and the gaming industry has come a LONG way since then.

 

Errr, her point with that was that the damsel in distress trope has its roots in early gaming, and she illustrated that the theme of Peach being captured has remained the central motivation for the game in 13 of 14 different iterations of Mario games, and that the trope continues today.  Though she does acknowledge that the mere existence of this trope in a game doesn't mean that a game must be sexist.

My point is that she took offense at Peach being a DiD because she's a woman too. Were she not, she wouldn't care, just as she doesn't care about fat, accented italians and a whole kingdom of evil turtles.

 

That and it's still a children's game for a young boy market, what kind of plot is she expecting?

I mean, if she had started with more modern games, where you know, there is a proper plot and you can practically touch the discrimination, I'd agree with her. But a silly little game wherein there was obviously no malice?

Edited March 15, 2013 by Oner

[alanschu]

My point is that she took offense at Peach being a DiD because she's a woman too. Were she not, she wouldn't care, just as she doesn't care about fat, accented italians and a whole kingdom of evil turtles.

 

I don't know if this is necessarily a valid defense.  You are correct, that she wouldn't care at all if it was Mario's male BFF that had been captured.  And it is always important to make sure that a type of "reverse sexism" isn't also occurring.  But given the point is to examine situations where women are placed in Damsel in Distress and its relative frequency, I am not sure what you were expecting.

 

If there was a common trope of italians being depicted as fat plumbers and crimes against turtles throughout gaming history, I think this defense would have more leg to stand on.  The unfortunate thing is that Damsel in Distress isn't a trope that is exclusive to games, but even then if Mario was the only game franchise to rely on it so heavily, Anita's critique of it when looking at gaming in general would be severely undermined.  The principal point of Damsel in Distress, though, is that it's based around a woman being placed in a situation of distress, with no recourse to do anything about it except await her rescue by a man and provide the motivation for the plot.  So yes, Mario was specifically picked because there was a woman being kidnapped.  Unfortunately for Mario, the game fits this very universal trope (which predates Mario by millenniums) 

 

 

 

That and it's still a children's game for a young boy market, what kind of plot is she expecting?

 

It's more an issue of prevalence and socialization.  How much of the vitriolic reaction towards Anita is because of being exposed to this type of media and being informed that "this is the way things are?"  You could also draw an argument that Peach being kidnapped is as much a reflection of society (it's seen as an acceptable motivation) at the time, though by utilizing it further you also serve the point of reinforcing these types of gender roles on your video games.  I personally think there's a strong cultural backing as well (particularly in the perspective of Miyamoto).

 

And I think it's also telling that you focus on it as a "young boy market."  I think this is part of the problem.  It was a young boy market, and it helped ensure that it was a young boy market by catering exclusively to young boys, and doing so in a way that perhaps perpetuates some level of gender roles for what expectations there are of men and women.  Given women in general have always had very suspect depictions in games, looking at the history of gaming doesn't seem like a bad place to start.

 

As you say, however... what type of plot should she really expect?  By that standpoint, something else entirely could have been used for Mario's motivation... but it wasn't.  Why is that?

 

 

 

I mean, if she had started with more modern games, where you know, there is a proper plot and you can practically touch the discrimination, I'd agree with her. But a silly little game wherein there was obviously no malice?

 

Define "malice?"  I have seen some say that because there's no outright acts of misogyny, Mario doesn't apply (a perspective I struggle to agree with).  The malice appears to be the idea that it continued to perpetuate an already established trope, and Mario happens to be an absurdly successful franchise that exposed this trope to boys pretty much everywhere.  When taking a larger scale perspective of tropes vs women in games, Anita appears to have started at the beginning.  When assessed in a vacuum, I think it's early to get overly critical because she was looking at an immensely popular game (and other early games) to establish that this trope has been in video games as long as video games have existed.

Edited March 15, 2013 by alanschu

[Oner]

You are misunderstanding me a little. I'm not saying she's necessarily wrong, just that these are details that make it hard for me personally, to care about her arguments. I'm not a testosterone-fueled, big muscled, brown haired walking manhunk that crushes everything and gets all the women. Yet I don't sneer with disgust at every game that features them and don't complain on the internet how wrong that is and how boys playing these games get a twisted sense of what it means to be a man. I just can't understand the attitudes some people have. Sarkeesian is trying to make some proper points in this series, I see, which is good (though I still think she should focus on WHY the treatment of women in games is bad instead of just nagging on that it's evil). Yet I've seen one or two videos from her and I don't trust her. Her current "educating" attitude seems to me like an act, and the "regressive crap part" and her Bayonetta review are the cracks.

 

But that's just my opinion.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Oner

[AwesomeOcelot]

Eh, the original Lara Croft still focused heavily on Male Gaze. I think it got worse as the series progressed initially.

In marketing and some cut scenes, the game didn't have that many, and it wasn't that prevalent in them. What's wrong with Male Gaze anyway? It's only art from the male perspective. In terms of "core" gaming, the industry is dominated by male developers and male consumers, some games are inevitably going to be directed towards males. I love the first Tomb Raider, it's one of my favourite games, I don't really care about the sexual content in it, but I don't believe it would have been such a success without it. There's nothing wrong with Male Gaze.