Update #40: Orlan First Look and Ziets on Pantheon Design

[rjshae]

 

Mortals in Project Eternity share many traits with mortals on Earth.

Personally, I like the approach that religions reflect the worldviews and the lives of societies/individuals just like in our world.  However, what's with the god of greed in this update and the early mention of gods scheming?  For example, people who worship a god of wealth can earn a reputation of being greedy from other people.  However, if a certain people worship "god of greed", then, how can they earn social trust in the first place?  Simply, I cannot come up with even a possible example.

 

Something that strikes me as slightly irregular about RPG implementations of pantheons is the concept of people only praying to a specific god. CRPGs like NWN2 have you pick a particular god to worship, as if that is your only choice. Yet in ancient societies with multiple gods, the people would often pray to many deities. A city like Athens would have a tutelary deity, but there would be other temples to other gods worshiped on particular days of the year. Wouldn't it make more sense to be able to choose multiple deities that you favor? Say your top 3?

[anek]

Historically, there was also an element of social and legal conformity associated with worship of the gods. Even to the point of being put to death for the crime of blasphemy or apostasy.

 

In some countries of the world, unfortunately not so historically.

[rjshae]

 

Historically, there was also an element of social and legal conformity associated with worship of the gods. Even to the point of being put to death for the crime of blasphemy or apostasy.

 

In some countries of the world, unfortunately not so historically.

 

We probably don't want to go there: discussions of modern religions get heated very quickly.

[Nonek]

There were even worse punishments, such as being sat in the comfy chair, or poked with the fluffy cushions. I believe however that the next Dragon Age game, "Inquisition" will be dealing with those dark matters in more detail. The release date is however totally unexpected.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Nonek

[Wombat]

 

 

Mortals in Project Eternity share many traits with mortals on Earth.

Personally, I like the approach that religions reflect the worldviews and the lives of societies/individuals just like in our world.  However, what's with the god of greed in this update and the early mention of gods scheming?  For example, people who worship a god of wealth can earn a reputation of being greedy from other people.  However, if a certain people worship "god of greed", then, how can they earn social trust in the first place?  Simply, I cannot come up with even a possible example.

 

Something that strikes me as slightly irregular about RPG implementations of pantheons is the concept of people only praying to a specific god. CRPGs like NWN2 have you pick a particular god to worship, as if that is your only choice. Yet in ancient societies with multiple gods, the people would often pray to many deities. A city like Athens would have a tutelary deity, but there would be other temples to other gods worshiped on particular days of the year. Wouldn't it make more sense to be able to choose multiple deities that you favor? Say your top 3?

 

Yeah, Rune Quest is famous for this approach of dividing social groups through ideologies.  In polytheist cultures, for example, they share a set of gods, whose worshipers have different roles in their societies.  In this way, the allied deities are shared among same cultures.  For example, even

if your character is a worshiper of Ares, he/she still respects Zeus, too.  Although the designers mixed up some factors, it's obvious that their models are our real-world religions in the past.

 

Although Sawyer tells that the inhabitants of PE share traits with us, I cannot come up with an example of a god of greed as an object of worship.  Also, I don't think that our gods would scheme by themselves.

[Enoch]

 

 

Mortals in Project Eternity share many traits with mortals on Earth.

Personally, I like the approach that religions reflect the worldviews and the lives of societies/individuals just like in our world.  However, what's with the god of greed in this update and the early mention of gods scheming?  For example, people who worship a god of wealth can earn a reputation of being greedy from other people.  However, if a certain people worship "god of greed", then, how can they earn social trust in the first place?  Simply, I cannot come up with even a possible example.

 

Something that strikes me as slightly irregular about RPG implementations of pantheons is the concept of people only praying to a specific god. CRPGs like NWN2 have you pick a particular god to worship, as if that is your only choice. Yet in ancient societies with multiple gods, the people would often pray to many deities. A city like Athens would have a tutelary deity, but there would be other temples to other gods worshiped on particular days of the year. Wouldn't it make more sense to be able to choose multiple deities that you favor? Say your top 3?

 

The most historically cogent way to handle it would be to select a Pantheon (with choices possibly limited by race or nationality), and a Patron within that pantheon. Someone raised in a culture that honors the Olympian pantheon might participate in festivals and offer sacrifices to all 12 dieties, even if they entered a holy order devoted to one of them in particular.  Just because you select a single god as your patron doesn't necessarily limit one to only worshipping in a single temple.  Being in a family or occupation that honored primarily Hermes didn't mean that you could never attend a feastday honoring Artemis, or offer a sacrifice to Hera when your wife was pregnant. 

[Jarmo]

Random thoughts.

 

Wodan + Boadicea = Woedica

 

Eternity hobbits are hairy city dwelling psionics.

 

Handkerchief so the fingerprints don't get messed up?

- There's a mindspell to get impression of the last person to touch an object.

- It's going to be a false lead.

 

Love the painting!

I'm definitely a color / painted style junkie.

[Enoch]

Although Sawyer tells that the inhabitants of PE share traits with us, I cannot come up with an example of a god of greed as an object of worship.  Also, I don't think that our gods would scheme by themselves.

I'm guessing that the "Greed" thing was a simplification. Many of the dieties in polytheistic cultures had what we would consider character flaws, in addition to their divine aspects. Zeus was kind of a jackass. Dionysius was a drunk. Hera was often jealous to the point of murder.

 

If, say, P:E includes a god of trade and commerce, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for the P:E equivalent of dirty, stinkin' hippies (read: druids) to deride that diety as a "god of greed."

[rjshae]

 

Although Sawyer tells that the inhabitants of PE share traits with us, I cannot come up with an example of a god of greed as an object of worship.  Also, I don't think that our gods would scheme by themselves.

I'm guessing that the "Greed" thing was a simplification. Many of the dieties in polytheistic cultures had what we would consider character flaws, in addition to their divine aspects. Zeus was kind of a jackass. Dionysius was a drunk. Hera was often jealous to the point of murder.

 

If, say, P:E includes a god of trade and commerce, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for the P:E equivalent of dirty, stinkin' hippies (read: druids) to deride that diety as a "god of greed."

 

Perhaps the rough equivalent of Hermes then?

[Forlorn Hope]

Thanks for the great update, once again. Always looking forward to wednesday mornings!

[Enoch]

 

 

Although Sawyer tells that the inhabitants of PE share traits with us, I cannot come up with an example of a god of greed as an object of worship.  Also, I don't think that our gods would scheme by themselves.

I'm guessing that the "Greed" thing was a simplification. Many of the dieties in polytheistic cultures had what we would consider character flaws, in addition to their divine aspects. Zeus was kind of a jackass. Dionysius was a drunk. Hera was often jealous to the point of murder.

 

If, say, P:E includes a god of trade and commerce, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for the P:E equivalent of dirty, stinkin' hippies (read: druids) to deride that diety as a "god of greed."

 

Perhaps the rough equivalent of Hermes then?

 

I have played in a classical-Greek-set PnP campaign that included a Priest of Hermes in the group.  This particular priest ran a gambling den on the side.  (My character was the party's thief, and also a follower of Hermes.) 

[Odglok]

As fascinated as I am by PE's pantheon and the soul-centric nature of the game, I can't say I've been excited by either of the new races' concept art. In fact, I almost laughed at the Orlan. I hate to be critical, especially since I know I couldn't come up with a decently original humanoid race if you held a gun to my head. But I can't take this one seriously. Based on the wiki description, I assumed Orlans would have a more sinister appearance. I can only assume they're trying to evoke a rabbit vibe with the ears. While Watership Down and Donnie Darko were both chilling and unexpectedly dark, this fellow doesn't strike me as someone who is capable of having a "nasty reputation". He looks more like a boyscout. I guess his appearance could be described as more bat-like than rabbit-like, but he seems to lack the appealing mystique of bats, capturing only the aspect which categorizes them as vermin.

 

I am super excited about the religious aspect of the game, though. In particular, I'm curious to know more about how much a priest character's choice of deity affects his/her abilities. In past D&D-based games it didn't seem to make much difference at all (alignment was more significant), but after playing Dungeon Crawl, I would truly love to see priests with wildly different abilities based on their god. And since traditional alignment isn't being used in PE, I have high hopes for that.

[rjshae]

Yeah, how could such a stunty creature with big furry ears ever possibly have such a nasty reputation?

 

[Kaldurenik]

A interesting thing would be if people prayed to the gods for different reasons.

 

Lets say there is a god of "thief's, lies, gambling, stealing, rule breaker" or whatever you want to call him/her.

 

Then the question some is why would a person that is not a thief pray to that god?

 

Well it could be so that by praying you also "protect" yourself from thief's,lies... Maybe you ask for luck when you gamble and so on.

 

Same with a god of death... Why would people pray to a god like that? Well maybe its to get a long a healthy life, maybe you are about to go out and fight and ask for protection against your enemies and so on.

 

Anyway just my minor idea.

[rjshae]

A hand-raised orlan is much more gregarious among humans...

 

 

Sorry, I saw the pic and couldn't resist.

[Azure79]

I like the concept art for the Orlan a lot. I like that Woedica has a little horror aspect to her. You're walking down a street and when suddenly an old woman appears and begins to stalk you. That's nightmare fuel. I have been watching too many Japanese horror movies. 

[Oner]

Maybe hes "identifying" the dagger with some mental ability.

It's psychometry, reading "imprints" left by the user(s) of an object.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometry_%28paranormal%29

[Lephys]

 

Maybe hes "identifying" the dagger with some mental ability.

It's psychometry, reading "imprints" left by the user(s) of an object.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometry_%28paranormal%29

 

Ways in which to impede Ciphers' ability to track you: Hold your weapon out to every stray cat you come across. Make sure you allow the cat time to first satiate its curiosity at the scents on your weapon (preferrably the hilt where you most come into contact with it), then rub its cheek gratuitously upon it. The Cipher now has to sort your imprint out of 300+ other imprints. ^_^

[J.E. Sawyer]

I guess his appearance could be described as more bat-like than rabbit-like, but he seems to lack the appealing mystique of bats, capturing only the aspect which categorizes them as vermin.

 

Many people in the world tend to think of them as vermin and assume they are harmless based on their appearance.  Their reputation isn't based on how they look.

[PrimeJunta]

Ways in which to impede Ciphers' ability to track you: Hold your weapon out to every stray cat you come across. Make sure you allow the cat time to first satiate its curiosity at the scents on your weapon (preferrably the hilt where you most come into contact with it), then rub its cheek gratuitously upon it. The Cipher now has to sort your imprint out of 300+ other imprints. ^_^

You only need one cat. They absorb psychic imprints like you wouldn't believe. Practically live on them. Well-known fact.

[Ginsu23]

I like the direction this pantheon is going.  It has a very "greek" feel to it, I like that.  Gods are not the extreme examples of good or evil upon which the morality of mortals is based, like in D&D.  But that makes me wonder about how alignment affects paladins, if alignment even exists in this game.  I like the idea of a paladin adhering to a strict moral code, that's the main thing that makes them hard to play.  Stray from the path and you lose all your cool powers and become a lame fighter.  In Baldur's Gate that mechanic was represented in kind of a lame way.  If your rep drops too low you become a fallen paladin, even if the "innocent" you killed attacked you first.  I'm interested to see how morality or alignment affects the paladins in PE.  Hopefully they are not a morally ambiguous as the gods.  I really don't want to play a paladin that slays dragons and rescues princesses one day, then strangles people for breaking promises the next day.

[Ieo]

I like the direction this pantheon is going.  It has a very "greek" feel to it, I like that.  Gods are not the extreme examples of good or evil upon which the morality of mortals is based, like in D&D.  But that makes me wonder about how alignment affects paladins, if alignment even exists in this game. xxxxxxx

 

You can stop right there since PE doesn't have "alignment." As for paladins, one of the updates talks about them but I forget which.

[Lephys]

I like the idea of a paladin adhering to a strict moral code, that's the main thing that makes them hard to play.  Stray from the path and you lose all your cool powers and become a lame fighter.  In Baldur's Gate that mechanic was represented in kind of a lame way.  If your rep drops too low you become a fallen paladin, even if the "innocent" you killed attacked you first.  I'm interested to see how morality or alignment affects the paladins in PE.

 

Yeah, it's not gonna be so much gonna be a dichotomous alignment as it's going to be an adherence to A moral code (rather than "the" moral code). And yeah, the whole "but that person was innocent! Just the wrong place at the wrong time! HOW DARE YOU KILL THEM?!" thing is a bit weird.

 

I liked how Samara (aka Asari justicars) worked in Mass Effect. She was basically all "Look, I'm on a holy mission, and your innocent life is but a speck compared to that. If I can help it, I won't harm any innocent people, ever. But, if you impede my mission, I am not only AUTHORIZED to kill you, I'm REQUIRED to. u_u"

 

I think Paladins should be brimming with zeal. 8P

[Darkpriest]

 

I like the idea of a paladin adhering to a strict moral code, that's the main thing that makes them hard to play.  Stray from the path and you lose all your cool powers and become a lame fighter.  In Baldur's Gate that mechanic was represented in kind of a lame way.  If your rep drops too low you become a fallen paladin, even if the "innocent" you killed attacked you first.  I'm interested to see how morality or alignment affects the paladins in PE.

 

Yeah, it's not gonna be so much gonna be a dichotomous alignment as it's going to be an adherence to A moral code (rather than "the" moral code). And yeah, the whole "but that person was innocent! Just the wrong place at the wrong time! HOW DARE YOU KILL THEM?!" thing is a bit weird.

 

I liked how Samara (aka Asari justicars) worked in Mass Effect. She was basically all "Look, I'm on a holy mission, and your innocent life is but a speck compared to that. If I can help it, I won't harm any innocent people, ever. But, if you impede my mission, I am not only AUTHORIZED to kill you, I'm REQUIRED to. u_u"

 

I think Paladins should be brimming with zeal. 8P

 

Actually the concept of a justicar  is really close to my perception of a paladin. They have their code, to which the adhere, their code is defined by the laws of the god they serve. The code is everything and breaking it, would be breaking oneself. That said, if the paladin is on the mission, only his patron god or superiors who sent him on the mission can stand in his way. They respect the others, and abide to laws, as long as it does not impede significantly their mission or endangers following their code. Rulers of lands would be well familiar with how these chapters/brotherhoods, etc. work.

[Ieo]

OKAY, WAIT JUST A MINUTE. (I've been out of the loop due to illness so I missed posting my most obvious question...)

 

Is the Orlan painting artist the same person who did the original Sagani painting? Who is it? Someone already in Obsidian, right?