Ten commandments for PE to follow

[IndiraLightfoot]

This is not a wishlist, this is a list of ten aspects to a new CRPG by my favourite game developer that I want to see fulfilled, and I'm sure they want it too. There is no particular order of importance to the points listed:

 

1) An open world with freedom to explore almost every nook and cranny. Linearity or level-locked areas is not a valid alternative - make me regret going to certain places instead

2) Make the initial character creation process an intricate joy. I love rolling up characters. I don't mind if it takes hours. Adjusting our pc's appearance matters little, but assigning attributes and skills, as well as choosing class and background traits do. They key is plentiful of choices and scales to slide

3) Give me encounters that are challenging, and at times, really tough. This applies regardless of how the encounter is resolved: combat, stealth or diplomacy

4) Update stealth so that it is a valid and interesting way to resolve many situations and encounters in a party-based CRPG. This has almost never been done, so there is room for some effort here

5) Spawn forth enemies that are slightly different even if it's the same category: Bandits, trolls or shadows can be randomized to quite an extent: size, abilities, equipment, colour, speed, background, motives, etc

6) Don't allow for player characters to get good at almost everything and to join almost every faction. A game like Skyrim felt very disappointing because of it. Encourage true replayability

7) Surprises, easter eggs, hidden quests, whatever you call it - it should almost as important as all of the main plots and quests. I'm addicted to poking around everywhere and need some wierd rewards for doing so

8 ) Character progress should be interesting every level, so keep the choices and skill branches coming. One drawback of D&D systems is that some levels were just intermediate checkpoints. 3.5 did it best, but it can be even better. As for the possibility of respecing my character, I would sternly say nay

9) Vary the tempo of the game, especially as far as encounters go, including difficulty. I don't want a see a stream of critters steamrolling me constantly, nor do I like a steady pattern of a few baddies per map

10) Try to keep fedex quests to a minimum. I'd rather have such quests removed and find rare stuff just by exploring the world. Good quests are braided into the dialogues of NPCs and the events of the world

 

What are your ten commandments, I mean, almost demands, that you think need to be achieved? In this topic, the abbreviation "tl-dr" is not allowed

 

Disclaimer: This is no "do this or I'll no longer support PE"-rant. It is just things that I care about and want to see realized.

Edited January 20, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Ieo]

Above and before all that:

 

0) Obsidian shall seek feedback from fans but will not bend over backwards for the small contingency of hardcores on the forum who throw tantrums.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Indeed, Ieo! 

 

Add that to my disclaimer.

[Malekith]

This is not a wishlist, this is a list of ten aspects to a new CRPG by my favourite game developer that I want to see fulfilled, and I'm sure they want it too. There is no particular order of importance to the points listed:

 

1) An open world with freedom to explore almost every nook and cranny. Linearity or level-locked areas is not a valid alternative - make me regret going to certain places instead

2) Make the initial character creation process an intricate joy. I love rolling up characters. I don't mind if it takes hours. Adjusting our pc's appearance matters little, but assigning attributes and skills, as well as choosing class and background traits do. They key is plentiful of choices and scales to slide

3) Give me encounters that are challenging, and at times, really tough. This applies regardless of how the encounter is resolved: combat, stealth or diplomacy

4) Update stealth so that it is a valid and interesting way to resolve many situations and encounters in a party-based CRPG. This has almost never been done, so there is room for some effort here

5) Spawn forth enemies that are slightly different even if it's the same category: Bandits, trolls or shadows can be randomized to quite an extent: size, abilities, equipment, colour, speed, background, motives, etc

6) Don't allow for player characters to get good at almost everything and to join almost every faction. A game like Skyrim felt very disappointing because of it. Encourage true replayability

7) Surprises, easter eggs, hidden quests, whatever you call it - it should almost as important as all of the main plots and quests. I'm addicted to poking around everywhere and need some wierd rewards for doing so

8 ) Character progress should be interesting every level, so keep the choices and skill branches coming. One drawback of D&D systems is that some levels were just intermediate checkpoints. 3.5 did it best, but it can be even better. As for the possibility of respecing my character, I would sternly say nay

9) Vary the tempo of the game, especially as far as encounters go, including difficulty. I don't want a see a stream of critters steamrolling me constantly, nor do I like a steady pattern of a few baddies per map

10) Try to keep fedex quests to a minimum. I'd rather have such quests removed and find rare stuff just by exploring the world. Good quests are braided into the dialogues of NPCs and the events of the world

 

What are your ten commandments, I mean, almost demands, that you think need to be achieved? In this topic, the abbreviation "tl-dr" is not allowed

 

Disclaimer: This is no "do this or I'll no longer support PE"-rant. It is just things that I care about and want to see realized.

Green i agree with.

Red not so much. I don't like sandboxes. IE games were not heavy on exploration, only BG1 had a little with the wilderness areas and these areas were my least favorite parts of all five IE games. I don't demand completelly linear like IWD1+2 and semi-lidear like Torment( althought i would be ok with that) but BG2 had my favourite approach of any other game to this day. Just enough open-world, but not an exploration game like TeS

[rjshae]

I like to think that the designers know what they are doing.

[IndiraLightfoot]

And I know that they know what they are doing, Rjshae, I just got a bit fed up with all the "what I do NOT want to see in PE"-threads. Me fingers itched to type up what I really wanted to see in the game.

 

Malekith: BG2 to me is just about open enough for me, but I do love it if it is even more open. Let's just say linear games and force-fed choices are not my cups of tea.

[Alexjh]

I'd agree with all except the ones Malekith bought up - 1) because some degree of linearity helps with making a better structure to a plot, and can actually make a game more memorable because of it.  I'd argue that the most memorable stretch of BG2 was the Underdark section precisely because it was linear and effectively forced the player to go forward rather than sideways.  Not to say I think that sandbox or open world is bad by any means, but for plot structure linear or linear branching is far better.  Ideally I'd say mix the two, so linearity is there to channel the player at points, but other sections are more open.  Perhaps strucutred loosely like open islands with linear bridges between them.

 

As for the point abotu variety.... I see your point but I don't find it as big an issue as all of the others.  Yes in regards to say, a bunch of bandits with the excact same face, but otherwise if two Dragons are identical I can live with it if there are other places those resources could be spent.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Alexjh: Yea, a plot can be smeared out to non-existence or at least something you don't even care about: Once again, Skyrim comes to mind.

 

I'd like to clarify, that my point 5 is essentially there to avoid things like DAO:s extreme overuse of darkspawns  or monsters as generic dots to blot out on a minimap. Also, I mention motives and background for enemies, and that I think is perhaps the most important aspect: I mean, Lizardmen that are devoted to a cult god and need sacrifices will be pretty hard to negotiate with, but lizardmen that try to expand their territory at the expense of some rival perhaps isn't. As a player of a CRPG, I'd love to get more of a feel for those cannon fodder paper-dolls that I slay. Why are they there, what is there background? And also, I think context and culture as far as monsters go is still underused in making fun and varied gameplay.

[NOK222]

Commandment XI: Stop demanding Obsidian what to do. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

NKKKK: KK, but it is all down in good spirit! 

[kenup]

1) An open world with freedom to explore almost every nook and cranny. Linearity or level-locked areas is not a valid alternative - make me regret going to certain places instead

5) Spawn forth enemies that are slightly different even if it's the same category: Bandits, trolls or shadows can be randomized to quite an extent: size, abilities, equipment, colour, speed, background, motives, etc

6) Don't allow for player characters to get good at almost everything and to join almost every faction. A game like Skyrim felt very disappointing because of it. Encourage true replayability

1) So you don't want to have some reason unlock some area before going there? Just go in there and "Oh, it's tough but I can manage/get back later?" That's like Skyrim without leveled enemies. More linear exploration allows for better and more choices in the plot. I'm not saying go DA2 or FFXIII style, just don't overdo it.

2) Randomization, again Skyrim, no thanks.

6) That's a given I think.

Edited January 20, 2013 by kenup

[IndiraLightfoot]

Kenup: 1) Unlocking areas through quests, I have no problem with. But what I don't wanna see is the game holding my hand and blurbing a sign that says "That quest is out of bounds for your low-level character" or something similar. Also, Area A leading to Area B, which leads to Area C that then trickles on into Area D is a bit too linear for me. At least make branches and networks of areas of that kind.

2) Elaborate, coz I didn't mean randomization at all. I just mean the freedom to create a reasonably complex character from a great number of meaningful choices, something I adore doing.

6) You'd be surprised, after games like Skyrm and Kingdoms of Amalur, or after crafting abilities that totally upset the balance of games, I'd say we have to vie for it.

[kenup]

Kenup: 1) Unlocking areas through quests, I have no problem with. But what I don't wanna see is the game holding my hand and blurbing a sign that says "That quest is out of bounds for your low-level character" or something similar. Also, Area A leading to Area B, which leads to Area C that then trickles on into Area D is a bit too linear for me. At least make branches and networks of areas of that kind.

2) Elaborate, coz I didn't mean randomization at all. I just mean the freedom to create a reasonably complex character from a great number of meaningful choices, something I adore doing.

6) You'd be surprised, after games like Skyrm and Kingdoms of Amalur, or after crafting abilities that totally upset the balance of games, I'd say we have to vie for it.

1) Fair enough.

 

2) What I mean is, that randomization brings a lot of repetition and boredom. Skyrim(as well as other games) has things like random quests and you may remember Oblivion and its wolves turning Minotaurs leveled lists. Now, random size and abilities might have the same result for the story. Example: if one is told that there is a cave full of trolls and you know from lore or otherwise that trolls have high strength but are not agile, having the trolls in that cave be randomly either too fast fast or too huge for some reason would go against the lore, no? As for motives and backgrounds, the technology isn't there yet. It's best having these things hand crafted, at least in a plot heavy game.

 

6) I'm saying it's a given from Obsidian, I'm not expecting Bethesda to make the game.

Edited January 20, 2013 by kenup

[IndiraLightfoot]

Kenup: Regarding 2) Now I get you, and it is clear you're talking about me point 5). But you happened to write 2), so then I got confused. And you have valid objections as far as Oblivion goes. But I think what I'm after is the possibility of being surprised by an encounter of say five werewolves and then later a new encounter with five werewolves again, where their motives, conbat tactics, strengths and weakness are not all exactly the same. I think it can be done without any technological wonders, it is a matter of design, and as you say regarding 6) Obsidian is so trustworthy you can take them for granted, but I just wanna make sure any such diseases are shaken before they get a hold.

[kenup]

Kenup: Regarding 2) Now I get you, and it is clear you're talking about me point 5). But you happened to write 2), so then I got confused. And you have valid objections as far as Oblivion goes.

My mistake, sorry about that.

 

Now I get what you are saying about number 5, though I still think motives are not that easy impossible to randomize without botching the writing. And I still think some things would be lore breaking if randomized. A random encounter that sends you to the past and forces you to destroy a certain essential for survival device or random bandits is one thing, but standard enemies are a no-no IMO.

Edited January 20, 2013 by kenup

[Sacred_Path]

Kenup: Regarding 2) Now I get you, and it is clear you're talking about me point 5). But you happened to write 2), so then I got confused. And you have valid objections as far as Oblivion goes. But I think what I'm after is the possibility of being surprised by an encounter of say five werewolves and then later a new encounter with five werewolves again, where their motives, conbat tactics, strengths and weakness are not all exactly the same. I think it can be done without any technological wonders, it is a matter of design, and as you say regarding 6) Obsidian is so trustworthy you can take them for granted, but I just wanna make sure any such diseases are shaken before they get a hold.

I would have liked some randomization in monster stats. It's good if you know "trolls are susceptible to fire", but it's immersion breaking to know "it'll take 2-3 flamestrikes max to take out those 5 trolls". That's also the only scenario in which a "mythology", "monster lore" etc. skill makes sense (on subsequent playthroughs).

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sacred_Path: And just that one occasion where some bleedin' troll won't get put down by fire or acid! Perhaps it's a mutation or some magical pinky-finger ring or a whole quest of a cavernous spring that endows that effect on trolls only. I like it when there are exceptions to rules, just like there are in all grammars all over the world, else our languages would be like code in computer games - extremely logical.

[kenup]

Sacred_Path: And just that one occasion where some bleedin' troll won't get put down by fire or acid! Perhaps it's a mutation or some magical pinky-finger ring or a whole quest of a cavernous spring that endows that effect on trolls only. I like it when there are exceptions to rules, just like there are in all grammars all over the world, else our languages would be like code in computer games - extremely logical.

That's not randomizing really. It's a very specific mutation or item. If an unexpected but not randomized event has a reason for being, fine. We'll probably get the reason, through a note, the quest giver, examining the "troll" or the source of the mutation.

Edited January 20, 2013 by kenup

[Osvir]

1:
Desire: A fun system to explore with many different paths.
One Solution: Unlike Skyrim, several designed paths. Start off in Gullykin as a Gnome, and be a Bhaalspawn, or start off at the Temple as a Paladin/Priest, as a Bhaalspawn. Replace "Gorion" with "Gnome Mother" and "Priest Tutor" that is related to Elminster somehow and you've got a wrap. Of course, instances as Chapter 6 in Candlekeep would have to be adjusted to your character "Profession". Just an example on what I think could be a fun system to explore.

2.
Desire:​ A rich an intricate economy, strategical.
One Solution: Economy being strict. It is an authentic feeling for a farmer to feel the lust of "Gold" and venture on wild dreams to find treasure. Economy being limited, and a profession is required to gain income. It would be a legit feeling for the Player to run low on food in the first City and is about to starve, but at that point has the option to start pickpocketing people to gain more economy and can survive instead of starving. Thus being lead into the path of the "Thief". Another might arrive at the City and quickly finding the Guard who takes you in, or you fall at the doorstep of the Church in exhaustion, and the Priests or Paladins take you in. Profession+Economy+Faction+Reputation.

3.
Desire: Loot being significant beyond "vendor" trash. No vendor trash at all. A resource based equipment growth.
One Solution: Enemies you slay you use for your perusal, upgrade your own armor with the skin from the bear, or with the metal plating that Bandit had on his gloves. Take components to a Blacksmith and you get a discount on any upgrades. Having a profession as a "Monster Hunter" or similar could yield an income at "Tanners" by giving them "Wolf Pelts". A path of the "Merchant" as well, perhaps, you start a trade. Buy leather from the tanner and take it to someone else, and in turn you start a career as a Businessman ("1. Professions").

4.
Desire: A fulfilling and intelligent Combat and non-Combat experience.

One Solution: "Do I want to engage in this?" whether I am prepared or not, it should be challenging enough for me to question it and device tactical and strategical plans to defeat it. Combat should be difficult on difficult. Equally important should the non-Combat experience address this question as well. "Can I get past this without fighting?", perhaps there is a patch of dirt that I can dig through on the side of the wall being one way. Another way could be to dazzle the 2 guards by the gate with a sleep spell, and then (if possible) move the bodies and/or switch clothes.

5.
Desire: Sending off party members on tasks by themselves, leaving the rest behind. Individual character management.
One Solution: Taking the 2 guards example from above, we have 4 party members, leave 2 party members behind and do the rest of the quest with the 2 that switched clothes (to go undercover). Depends on the objective. [search] for a Scout/Druid/Ranger in your party, leaving your party for a duration to explore the outdoor area ahead of you (disappearing like the dog in Torchlight 2). [burglary] for a Thief, disappearing for a duration of time, looting a small % of the towns gold. Can enter Jail or get "Wanted" status.

6.
Desire: A fun [Experience].
One Solution: With a [Profession] tied with [Faction], which grants growth in "Class" path. A Guard (Fighter) would be better at close combat than the Thief (Rogue). [Armor Resources] being an experience to grow in potential protection, and a Rogue, Wizard, Fighter, Ranger you name it can grow equally in protection.

7.
Desire: "The Interrupting God", weak mechanics that Obsidian knows are exploitable, [insert God] to stop the Players from exploiting it to remain authentic to the world. If you know it at release and there's no other logical or easier method.
One Solution: Some Player choices in the game could be interrupted. You would be able to Save+Reload as often as you want, but doing it could put you into a "Doctor Who" loop, thrown into a trap made by a God. If you Rest too much and frequently, you could be sent into a Realm of Dreams, trapped by a evil Jon Blund God. Pickpocketing everyone in a town, Ciphers could appear, setting "Heat" in the city. Or a God could come and shake his finger, and if you continue to do it the God Smites you with Lightning (but you could still continue to do it xD).

8.
Desire: A rich story
One Solution: Drama. Maturity. Darkness. Creative. Innovative. Mortality. Authentic. Medieval. Gods. Religion. Factions. Good guys. Bad guys. Friendship. Rivalry. Ominous. Intelligent. Fun. Comic. Love. Hate. Mystery. I think there's a lot that can be thrown into a world like P:E.

9.
Desire: Morality being a big business.
One Solution: Is it?

10.
Desire: P:E should be P:E
One Solution: Obsidian has final word and it's their game. They should fulfill their desires and find their own solutions first and foremost. Looking forward to seeing what its going to be like :D

[Malekith]

Malekith: BG2 to me is just about open enough for me, but I do love it if it is even more open. Let's just say linear games and force-fed choices are not my cups of tea.

If by open you meant BG2 then yes, i like it.It had the perfect balance between openness and linearity. It just is that in your first post i got a Skyrim vibe that i personally loath(not a matter of implementation, i dislike the whole direction). The same about randomization of enemies. If they have hand crafted encounters and there is a lore reason for enemies having diffirent stats then again go for it.

Have you played  any other IE game except BG series? What where your thoughts on them?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Malekith

[JFSOCC]

3b) while challenging is good, diversity of the types of challenges is important too, and I don't mind tough challenges to be interspersed with less tough once for better pacing.

ideally, it should be "I'm weak" "I can manage" "I'm weak" "Look at how powerful I've become!" "Oh, so I'm not as strong as I thought" I'm weak"... etc where there's short periods after levelling where you can enjoy the fruits of your labour and glory in your

[JFSOCC]

variety, challenge, significance

[Dream]

1-10) When in doubt go with what BG2 did.

[Valorian]

I don't want randomization, I want variety, generally and within groups.

 

Bandits with different stats, skeletons with different sets of armor and weapons, goblins with different skin tones, particular zombies with unique on-hit properties; all this accompanied by a variety of names. Zombie number 35 doesn't have to be named "zombie", this special zombie can be a "zombie lord" or an "ancient zombie" that steals life or whatever other combination to spice things up.

 

Hand placed and designed with an eye for detail, without randomness, but with variety in mind is what I'd like to see.

[Sacred_Path]

I don't want randomization, I want variety, generally and within groups.

 

Bandits with different stats, skeletons with different sets of armor and weapons, goblins with different skin tones, particular zombies with unique on-hit properties; all this accompanied by a variety of names. Zombie number 35 doesn't have to be named "zombie", this special zombie can be a "zombie lord" or an "ancient zombie" that steals life or whatever other combination to spice things up.

 

Hand placed and designed with an eye for detail, without randomness, but with variety in mind is what I'd like to see.

What you're asking for is a no-brainer and guaranteed to be in the game.

 

In 2013, if you're including a race of bipedal, amphibious monsters, they're not all going to be of the variety that wields axes, lacks ranged weapons, casts no spells, attacks mindlessly and has exactly 30 hitpoints. There's bound to be at least the usual shaman and a variety that's even bigger and badder and maybe even a lizard chieftain. That was true in the year 2000 AD, and it's even more true now.

 

However, adding randomization to the mix is the only way to ensure that even a veteran player can't contemplate exact strategies without ever even seeing his enemies. No more boring meta-gamey picking of spells at the start of the game knowing "this is the spell I'll use to pwn the monster on level 3, room 2, second coffin from the right in the Temple of Doom".

All randomization within limits of course, but even though I always advocate for the game to be well playable in Ironman mode I could live with the fact that randomization of enemies in a horde had an influence on my party's demise. It's still preferrable over the lack of excitement of knowing every enemy in the game like the back of your hand.

 

Then there are people who think randomization is of the devil and must be cleansed with fire, of course.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sacred_Path