Power of classes (Realism vs. Filling unlimited power)

[Tamerlane]

40% want to be normal or weak?

 

Let those who desire to be Joe Average find something else to play--perhaps some sort of Sims game where being mundane is par for the course. I'm hoping Obsidian makes P.E. a far more entertaing game.

 

I don't understand where people get the notion that having a character that isn't super powerful or even god like is equal to him being weak or average.

 

Its right there in the poll choice you selected:

 

Everywons power must be as realistic as possible (allmost all of them shoud be normal or week)(12 votes [41.38%] - View)

But I just want my character to be the physical manifestation of the second week of February?

[Ulquiorra]

Few mistakes in da poll and you nobs acting like the smarthest being in unverse, i cant edit it now so your acting even more stupid. If you profesors of english lnguage (Tamerlane, AGX-17) have problem with that ask mod to edit this poll ... is this so dam hard to understand ... i bet that you don't know more languages than 1 (basic engish) i know 3 on comunicativ level .... so stop be more papal then pope him self...

 

 

If yo whana do something besoce you are frustraded play pokemons .... insead of acting like you have menstruation ....

 

 

 

To da topic ...

 

 

 

Gfted1 what do you understand by "overpowerd" character ...

 

 

something like this ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz9jmkIQfFU

Edited December 13, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[Gfted1]

Gfted1 what do you understand by "overpowerd" character ...

 

 

something like this ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz9jmkIQfFU

 

Heh, cool video but what I meant by my post was I would like my character to be approximately as powerful as you were at the end of Baldurs Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal. I cant remember exactly but I think that was around level 20-22 under DnD 2.5E rules.

[Ulquiorra]

Gfted1 what do you understand by "overpowerd" character ...

 

 

something like this ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz9jmkIQfFU

 

Heh, cool video but what I meant by my post was I would like my character to be approximately as powerful as you were at the end of Baldurs Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal. I cant remember exactly but I think that was around level 20-22 under DnD 2.5E rules.

 

So basicly something between super-hero and demi-god ... ok ... i like this idea but only if we will fight other demigods ... dragons on that level if i remember where easy.... (or mayby something mixed me up with neverwinter nights ... but i don't remember witch d&d rules was then)

Edited December 13, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[Lephys]

Well it's a fantasy game (fantasy implies unrealistic, imaginary,) centered around souls, a metaphysical concept that has no basis in reason or rational science. So there's not really any realism to be found from the start.

 

I beg to differ. PLEAAASE, pleeeease differ! T_T (Sorry, I've just always found that phrase a bit funny.)

 

Regardless of how imaginary a fantasy concept is for a game, it's still designed to be experienced by humans, who dwell within the realm of reality. If imaginary concepts weren't designed with realism in mind, then we wouldn't comprehend the game at all. The way souls and magic work in the world of P:E might be completely fictitious, but they generate effects within a set of rules based on real physics (such as heat, and lightning, and measurable kinetic forces).

 

We sort of say "If this and this and this were real, how would they fit in with the rest of reality?" Logic and reason still fully apply to the design. That's why you get complaints such as "Why doesn't my fireball annihilate this ice elemental?", as opposed to people just saying "who cares... it's imaginary magic... it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever." Just because a person's hands can't really make a fireball out of mana and willpower doesn't mean that I should stop expecting it to behave like fire would in relation to realistic things like ice (the fact that the ice is apparently sentient matters not.)

[AGX-17]

Every class should have a role that it excels at that no other class can perform. That's what classes are for. Every role they play should be effective in most/all circumstances, especially since it has been confirmed that you can solo the game with the player character only. I also think every class should have some array of abilities that draw on their "soul" in some way beyond the simple emotional concepts of "berker rage" which could be nothing more than an adrenaline rush, realistically. Obviously mages, ciphers and the like would have a much larger number of these abilities with much more potent effects than a fighter or what have you.

 

Normal and weak FTW!

Becoming OP is usually the time I start a new play-through actually.

 

How are you going to win the game if you're average and weak? There's a reason no peasant uprising ever succeeded before the French Revolution. Unless you expect P:E to be about rabble-rousing amidst a devastating famine while the aristocracy lives high on the hog, that's a pretty unrealistic desire considering you're almost certainly going to be facing supernatural monstrosities at some degree of frequency.

 

 

Well it's a fantasy game (fantasy implies unrealistic, imaginary,) centered around souls, a metaphysical concept that has no basis in reason or rational science. So there's not really any realism to be found from the start.

 

I beg to differ. PLEAAASE, pleeeease differ! T_T (Sorry, I've just always found that phrase a bit funny.)

 

Regardless of how imaginary a fantasy concept is for a game, it's still designed to be experienced by humans, who dwell within the realm of reality. If imaginary concepts weren't designed with realism in mind, then we wouldn't comprehend the game at all. The way souls and magic work in the world of P:E might be completely fictitious, but they generate effects within a set of rules based on real physics (such as heat, and lightning, and measurable kinetic forces).

 

We sort of say "If this and this and this were real, how would they fit in with the rest of reality?" Logic and reason still fully apply to the design. That's why you get complaints such as "Why doesn't my fireball annihilate this ice elemental?", as opposed to people just saying "who cares... it's imaginary magic... it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever." Just because a person's hands can't really make a fireball out of mana and willpower doesn't mean that I should stop expecting it to behave like fire would in relation to realistic things like ice (the fact that the ice is apparently sentient matters not.)

 

If there are souls and magic confirmed to exist in P:E, the laws of physics of reality don't exist in that world, because magic certainly doesn't exist, and there's no evidence that souls exist, either. Don't bring physics into a numbers-based RPG, because physics would dictate that magic does not exist, souls are unprovable and there is no evidence of their existence and thus outside the realm of science and your party would be engaged in fights where they could be killed by one hit with excessive frequency.

 

Even Darklands, much celebrated for being "realistic", was still a fantasy RPG whose mechanics were not an accurate reflection of reality.

 

Simply put, your expectation that P:E will be a Simulation of a fallacious reality that exists in the minds of the superstitious (such as yourself,) is baseless, as there is no way to mathematically model and accurately simulate the "physics" of magical thinking and other superstitious beliefs with no root in reason, rational observation or objective evidence.

 

If aboriginal people in an arid African region do a rain dance every year at the cusp of the monsoon season, and it rains during the monsoon season, that is not a causal phenomenon. If you removed all of them or stopped them from doing their rain dance, there is a long-term climatological certainty (barring the effects of climate change or a change in the Earth's axial tilt,) that the monsoon season rains would come anyway, because rain is a function of the Earth's climate, not the superstitions of men who believe that physically unrelated phenomena = causal relationships.

Edited December 13, 2012 by AGX-17

[NerdBoner]

these are m opinions:

 

1. some classes should inherently be more powerful than others in combat, depending on how they're spec'd of course...others should be more useful outside of combat (a role which can be made to be just as, if not more crucial than combat)

 

2. in the early stages of an adveturers life he should generally be weak....but as she gains experience, not to mention powerful artifacts, they should, near the climax of their 'saga' (whether that be in a single game or in a series long adventure) be a force of nature...someone who has gone through hell and back and has something to show for it. (be it an Empire, godhood or just massive personal power on a scale no one will ever want to f*ck with again) ~~~Cue retirement.

Edited December 13, 2012 by NerdBoner

[Lephys]

If there are souls and magic confirmed to exist in P:E, the laws of physics of reality don't exist in that world, because magic certainly doesn't exist, and there's no evidence that souls exist, either. Don't bring physics into a numbers-based RPG, because physics would dictate that magic does not exist, souls are unprovable and there is no evidence of their existence and thus outside the realm of science and your party would be engaged in fights where they could be killed by one hit with excessive frequency.

 

Even Darklands, much celebrated for being "realistic", was still a fantasy RPG whose mechanics were not an accurate reflection of reality.

 

Simply put, your expectation that P:E will be a Simulation of a fallacious reality that exists in the minds of the superstitious (such as yourself,) is baseless, as there is no way to mathematically model and accurately simulate the "physics" of magical thinking and other superstitious beliefs with no root in reason, rational observation or objective evidence.

 

Whoa whoa whoa... easy does it, there. You misunderstand me. I'm not even suggesting that magic exists in reality. What I'm saying is, in a fantasy world, there's still gravity. There are still humans, and they walk around on the world, because gravity holds them. So, to say that the existence of things that don't exist automatically throws any and all realism out the window is incorrect. Gravity alone proves that false.

 

You're not creating a completely unrealistic world. You're mixing realistic and unrealistic things, so you can't just make no effort at realism, or you'd have to not even attempt to emulate ANY real laws of physics. The laws of physics do not allow for a fireball to be woven out of magic. But they DO provide a ball of fire to burn your foes, and light wooden things aflame. So, the ONLY thing that isn't based in reality about a magic fireball is how it was created and controlled.

 

In other words, I can't will a sword into existence. But, if I COULD, it would still be a sword, adherent to all the laws of physics, now that it exists. It would behave in a perfectly realistic fashion, even though I wasn't behaving in a perfectly realistic fashion by creating it with my mind.

 

I'm just saying that it isn't moot to discuss realism when dealing with fictitious elements. You're always going to be dealing with some degree of realism.

[Barothmuk]

Its right there in the poll choice you selected:

Everywons power must be as realistic as possible (allmost all of them shoud be normal or week)(12 votes [41.38%] - View)

"Normal or weak" probably isn't the best choice of words but it fits the general style I (and perhaps others) happen to prefer.

 

As the game progresses the PC should become more skilled in their given field yes, but it's preferable that it remains within reason. There are skilled swordsman in real life who could certainly flog a noob like me but that does not mean they're now suddenly god-tier beings. They are simply more skilled than most in their particular area of specialization.

 

So basicly something between super-hero and demi-god ...

Sweet Jesus H **** no. Edited December 14, 2012 by Barothmuk

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I want all classes to have the potential to become powerful. I think that designing classes with balanced progression where they do not gain super-powerful abilities early on or they not gain anything of use after level 10 is the best way to do things. A level 1 fighter should be a competent amateur at combat, while a level 20 fighter should be a master at combat(switch out "fighter" with x class and "combat" with whatever you feel x class is good at and the statement should still be true).

 

I don't want one class to be amazing(or awful) compared to other classes. A fighter should be a reasonable alternative to a mage, not the choice of a guy who hits things with a sword or a powerful wizard who can throw around meteor storms every round with impunity. There are two ways to balance the two, one is to design the system where both classes do everything equally and the other is to design the system to have them be balanced by having strengths and weaknesses. For example, in an equal system at level 7 both classes would be able to deal 17 damage per hit, the only difference being how it was dealt(melee attack for the fighter, acid arrow for the mage), while in a strength and weakness system at level 7 the fighter would deal 7-14 damage per hit(using a longsword with a high strength score and specializing in longswords) and be able to hit a foe until they die, while the mage would be able to blast areas of foes with fireballs for 7-42 damage but be limited in the amount of spells they could cast, so when they were out of their spells they would be pretty vulnerable(compared to the fighter).

[Adhin]

I ended up voting in mild contradiction but then none of them really fit. That and I voted with in A, what they've said - everyone basically has what someone would consider 'supernatural powers' (in your party, anyway). And B, everything (hopefully) posing some level of challenge, even if it seems 'super easy if your paying attention'. Personally that's the kind of balance i like for a basic difficulty for good bit of the encounters.

 

Basically, the world of Project Eternity, every class has abilities fueled by there soul. Warriors/Barbarians will have abilities to regain stamina, im sure some kinda strength enhancing, or damage mitigating abilities fueled by there soul. Personally I like this idea more then DnD as you get these kind of things in the base of how DnD handles stuff but for warriors its less explained. Monks get a 'well its monk magic!' then other 'sources' of power for arcane, divine, psions or whatever. But in PE, regardless of class, its your soul fueling your power.

 

So yeah, everyone has the potential for supery like powers due to there soul but I want all the encounters to be challenging to some extent. I mean when everything has the potential for that kind of greatness its evening the playing field to some extent.

 

-edit-

On a side note - in relation to Realism, always preferred believability... it's really just semantics but that's ultimately what folks mean when they talk about 'realism' in fantasy worlds. The 'Fantasy' being governed by rules to make it believable. PE has already done a good job of that by using the creatures soul as the source of power that makes magic and magic-like abilities possible.

 

If a person is capable of superhuman strength its because they where able to tap into their soul to bolster their body... also fireballs.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Adhin

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I like my progress as "slightly better than average --> Batman" (OD&D), not "Batman --> Superman" (4e). But, since it's (hopefully) going to be the first installment of a series, we can assume that this will be the case.

Edited December 14, 2012 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Alexjh]

It's a bit of a fine line really, my general assumption is that in terms of your individual characters, the level 1 format should be either "normal" (ala Dungeon Siege 1 or Elder Scrolls, you are literally or effectively a peasant) or slightly above normal (where you are a little badass relative to everyday people). In a party based game, I dont feel like your guys should ever individually be the most powerful people in the world - on their own they are good but not unstoppable, its that team dynamic and their strategies which really sets them apart. All classes should be what I consider equal but different, and more importantly benefit from the versatility the others bring, sure if you lock two guys in a 10 meter cubed box, barbarians and fighters should win generally, but, its the versatility of powers and new strategic options the different classes give when acting in concert that means that adding, say, a chanter to the team rather than a 6th fighter enhances your parties abilities.

 

I actually really like the "saving throw" model of high end powers - where if you have a direct insta-kill power or ability (like disintegrate or quivering palm) it depends on who you use it on and a bit of luck to see if it works. The kind of scenario like I had in my most recent playthrough of Icewind Dale 2 fighting against the black dragon for example - Dragon was butchering my party, I'd used up almost all my spells and 2 of my 3 disintegrate spells and they'd failed. As a last ditch attept I threw my last disintegrate at it and it worked, saving my entire party from being eaten on what was an improbable roll. Thats the kind of high power spell thats fun because it means you end up using them as a role of the dice when all hope seems lost. If you can just explode all enemies with ease its just not the same.

[Tamerlane]

I like my progress as "slightly better than average --> Batman" (OD&D), not "Batman --> Superman" (4e). But, since it's (hopefully) going to be the first installment of a series, we can assume that this will be the case.

Ahem.

 

 

 

 

But I get what you're saying, anyway.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

^^ That was cheating, he synthetized kryptonite beforehand

[Lephys]

Basically, they just need to follow the rules of the DragonBall universe:

 

No matter how powerful you become, someone will always come along whose power is literally your own power mathematically squared. And also the world never gets destroyed, even though the gentle bat of your eyelashes as you blink, at this point, should be capable of leveling a solar system, MINIMUM. u_u

[Adhin]

Ahh man I think DBZ is part of why I like the concept of using your soul as the power source for spells and whatnot. Granted I don't want DBZ the RPG going on with PE, I prefer fantasy and all that but something about everyone having the ability to tap into that and with enough training become something great... also I hope the monk class can throw energy balls. Cause... yeah.

[Tamerlane]

^^ That was cheating, he synthetized kryptonite beforehand

That's not cheating.

 

That's just buffing before a boss fight.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

That's not cheating.

 

 

"That's not cheating, that's winning."

[Lephys]

But they did destroy a few worlds if I recall.

 

But never the world.

[JFSOCC]

I don;t mind being powerful, but not because of innate ability, but rather through what I have built up during the game. Political power, faction backing etc.

[Ulquiorra]

Basically, they just need to follow the rules of the DragonBall universe:

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[AGX-17]

Basically, they just need to follow the rules of the DragonBall universe:

 

No matter how powerful you become, someone will always come along whose power is literally your own power mathematically squared. And also the world never gets destroyed, even though the gentle bat of your eyelashes as you blink, at this point, should be capable of leveling a solar system, MINIMUM. u_u

 

 

 

 

This is now a "look of disgust/disbelief/disdain" reaction image thread.

Edited December 15, 2012 by AGX-17

[Lephys]

Hahaha. Just... just to clarify, I was joking. I'm sure you probably knew that, but... I would hold myself personally responsible if anyone blew an artery at the thought that that was a serious suggestion. 8P

 

(LOVE the reaction gifs! ^_^)

[Ulquiorra]

Hahaha. Just... just to clarify, I was joking. I'm sure you probably knew that, but... I would hold myself personally responsible if anyone blew an artery at the thought that that was a serious suggestion. 8P

 

(LOVE the reaction gifs! ^_^)

 

 

DBZ anime is one of the worst animes evermade, only storyine is "kick that ashole" or " gain power to smash planet with your finger not your arm". It almost so childish like pokemin (in dbz we at least se blood),,,,

 

 

If you whanna input soul system i strongly sugdest to make your own PROJECT ETERNITY soul system. If we wanna look for inspiration Bleach anime is way better than DBZ (but only Arrancar saga not stupid fillers) the problem is that that in Bleach we see Shinigami (gods of death) or angry spirits (hollows) so taking inspiration from this anime whoud be very hard in my opininion. (especialy for isometric game)

 

Besiacly i made this thread becouse of "Fighting like classes" not mages ........ WHY ?

 

Becouse mages are pure fantasctic characters and a level of their power can be easly overpowerd and thats normal ....

 

Fighters are one of most problemic class ... belive me in reality if you train somewan to be master of sword and put on him full plate mayby he will survive lion or tiger atact, but any rino or elefant whoud easly kill him. And I'm not talking even of dinosaurs. So dragon fights (phisical atributes like dinosaur + flames + skin harder than steel) whoud be imposible (if you want to live).

 

So fighter shoud allways gain some unnatural, supernatural power to be at least able to stand 30 seconds in dragon fights ... problem is how much power we must give them ?

 

A( to be able to survive few seconds )

 

or

 

B ( To be able to destoy whole villige (not planet) in one hit )

 

 

or

 

 

C (something between)

Edited December 16, 2012 by Ulquiorra