Sexism?

[jezz555]

In most fantasy games it seems to be the norm that sexism doesn't exist and that women and men have the same basic rights and societal roles in the world. But I'm not sure if this is necessarily the best way to handle things (hear me out here). Part of what makes characters like Brienne in SoIF or Joan of Arc interesting, is all the adversity they have had to overcome to be considered an equal by men in a sexist time. To totally gloss over the issue and have everyone express totally modern viewpoints seems like kind of a missed opportunity for role-play as well as just unrealistic. Should being a female knight mean that you had to impersonate a man Joan of Arc style or that you had to prove yourself the equal of the other knights, or that they just all accepted you right away? Obsidian mentioned IIRC that they were going to deal with racism, but will they also deal with sexism and what are your guys' thoughts on the matter?

[Sacred_Path]

I'd guess gender equality and other anachronisms (i.e. environmental awareness/ sustainability) are to be expected. It always seems a bit ridiculous but it doesn't bother me so much that I'd advocate against it.

[Pshaw]

I think some sexism is good but I'd try and balance it if at all possible since I feel that it's generally woman always getting the shaft. For example I know that in one book I read that handling money and bartering was seen as unmanly so the women tended to handle it transactions while men couldn't really talk about money at all. In another it was reading that wasn't something men did so men in the culture had to rely on women for book keeping and the like. I'd rather see culturally related sexism along those lines rather than the typical men do the fighting women make the babies sexism.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Pshaw

[jezz555]

I think some sexism is good but I'd try and balance it if at all possible since I feel that it's generally woman always getting the shaft. For example I know that in one book I read that handling money and bartering was seen as unmanly, in another it was reading that wasn't something men did. I'd rather see culturally related sexism along those lines rather than the typical men do the fighting women make the babies sexism.

 

Of course this could all work the other way. We could also see matriarchal societies, where men are the ones facing discrimination.

[Sacred_Path]

I think some sexism is good but I'd try and balance it if at all possible since I feel that it's generally woman always getting the shaft. For example I know that in one book I read that handling money and bartering was seen as unmanly, in another it was reading that wasn't something men did. I'd rather see culturally related sexism along those lines rather than the typical men do the fighting women make the babies sexism.

 

Of course this could all work the other way. We could also see matriarchal societies, where men are the ones facing discrimination.

 

isn't that more of a sci-fi trope?

[jezz555]

I think some sexism is good but I'd try and balance it if at all possible since I feel that it's generally woman always getting the shaft. For example I know that in one book I read that handling money and bartering was seen as unmanly, in another it was reading that wasn't something men did. I'd rather see culturally related sexism along those lines rather than the typical men do the fighting women make the babies sexism.

 

Of course this could all work the other way. We could also see matriarchal societies, where men are the ones facing discrimination.

 

isn't that more of a sci-fi trope?

 

no, dark-elf society is matriarchal in D&D IIRC.

Edited December 3, 2012 by jezz555

[jivex5k]

There should be sexism when appropriate to that culture's history.

That goes for racism too.

Cultures all have their own behavior and expectations of their people, I want to see different cultures in this game.

And it should absolutely change the way they act towards your character.

If your rolling a female who comes in contact with a barbaric type culture where females are held in lower respect, I better have some males in my party to get some respect.

If it's a society where woman rule the government and men are viewed as low brow food providers, I better have a female in my party to get some respect.

What I don't want to see are a bunch of bland cultures with views that remain PC in our real world to play it safe.

 

They pitched this as a mature game, I expect the cultures to be defined in a mature perspective.

 

Seems like we all share the same expectation in this regard.

I think Obsidian is aware that we don't want a sugar coated PC world to inhabit.

Edited December 3, 2012 by jivex5k

[Ieo]

I hated the Dark Elf thing because it was far too much a caricature of "mirror opposite" lazy cultural design. Zeits' design of Rashemen in MotB sounds much more interesting, though I'll never have the opportunity to play it.

 

I expect racism, sexism, age-ism in PE appropriate to its endemic cultures and religions.

[Rostere]

In most fantasy games it seems to be the norm that sexism doesn't exist and that women and men have the same basic rights and societal roles in the world. But I'm not sure if this is necessarily the best way to handle things (hear me out here). Part of what makes characters like Brienne in SoIF or Joan of Arc interesting, is all the adversity they have had to overcome to be considered an equal by men in a sexist time. To totally gloss over the issue and have everyone express totally modern viewpoints seems like kind of a missed opportunity for role-play as well as just unrealistic. Should being a female knight mean that you had to impersonate a man Joan of Arc style or that you had to prove yourself the equal of the other knights, or that they just all accepted you right away? Obsidian mentioned IIRC that they were going to deal with racism, but will they also deal with sexism and what are your guys' thoughts on the matter?

I agree with this.

[PrimeJunta]

I would very much like to see sexism, racism, and all other flavors of human iniquity in societies in P:E. It would add a lot of depth to the setting.

 

However, doing it well means a hell of a lot of work, as they'd have to write most dialogs in two versions to reflect this, and ideally entire plot branches that only happen if the player is male or female. Never even mind the intra-party chatter. Given that, I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if they did do it.

[Dream]

unrealistic.

 

Oh, realism.

[kabaliero]

i'd like sexism

as well as racism

as well as homophobic humour

stacked well and safe to where it socially belongs

 

and this is not a troll

 

i also would like children as killable as everything else

but this was alrdy spoken of

[Dream]

i'd like sexism

as well as racism

as well as homophobic humour

stacked well and safe to where it socially belongs

 

and this is not a troll

 

i also would like children as killable as everything else

but this was alrdy spoken of

 

Lets toss rape in there as well because, you know, it's realistic.

[jivex5k]

i'd like sexism

as well as racism

as well as homophobic humour

stacked well and safe to where it socially belongs

 

and this is not a troll

 

i also would like children as killable as everything else

but this was alrdy spoken of

 

Lets toss rape in there as well because, you know, it's realistic.

Seriously I hope there is raping in this game.

It's realistic and shows the devs trust us to handle mature subject matter.

 

What we don't want is rape where it doesn't fit, or **** thrown in for the sheer aspect of seeming mature.

Don't water down this game, but don't make extreme subject matter where it doesn't belong.

 

I want this game to be as mature as Game of Thrones...The books not the show.

Life was freaking hard back then, gritty and dangerous, filthy and unapologetic. But that's not all it was, there are moments of kindness and beauty throughout.

You can't dismiss rape and other aspects of hardship simply because you argue the game doesn't need to be realistic.

 

Realism in RPGs, when it comes to the world and environment and people who inhabit it, it's paramount.

It's not as important when you talk about game-play systems, as fun should be the primary concern in this respect.

Edited December 3, 2012 by jivex5k

[Ieo]

This thread is just going to rehash the other "how mature should this game be" threads anyway.

 

Suffice it to say...

 

I'll trust Obsidian to handle this well and appropriately for both their game world and for the players (there is a tension balance in that respect). If they have any questions about player input for details that can be massaged, let them say so in an update or something.

[jezz555]

i'd like sexism

as well as racism

as well as homophobic humour

stacked well and safe to where it socially belongs

 

and this is not a troll

 

i also would like children as killable as everything else

but this was alrdy spoken of

 

Lets toss rape in there as well because, you know, it's realistic.

 

You clearly disagree here, so let's hear your case.

This thread is just going to rehash the other "how mature should this game be" threads anyway.

 

 

Let's keep it focused then. Sexism is something I hadn't really heard discussed in the "maturity" threads, but I did see people posting "realistic female armour" with the assumption that a woman in armour would be a common sight in this game. If you think this thread is somehow boring or a re-hash, feel free to not post.

Edited December 3, 2012 by jezz555

[kabaliero]

woops, delete

Edited December 3, 2012 by kabaliero

[Ulquiorra]

Sexism in video games is ilusion, in my opinion if we take sexis, racism, discrimination and everything bad from live we create ilusion becouse we feel uncomfortable with those things. In 1 side peaple are talking why putt sex, sexism or nudity in games if this are only pixels not real life but if you ut them they starting be offendet by it. I say this laud if you will put women that are acting and looking like men and you putt men that are not atractet by women then don't put women and man putt something between.

 

In my opinion women need to feel like women and man must feel like men if you put aside sexual desire, sexism and everything involving it it will become chilish pokemon like game where no one is offended and no one feel like him self. If i whant to play an elf whore or Dwarf sexist i want to play them, if i whant to see game done well (not like 80% of Japanese anime) i must see every one of men and women types,stereo-types, and anti stereotypes.

 

Men and women are not the same, they are difrent we are difrent, but nobody is better.

 

From ilusion to ilusion.

 

By the way this game where never gona be real becouse it's inspired be medival times. Todays sexism in tru medival where just act of politeness women where not suposed even talk when men where talking they where discriminated in any aspect of life. Today if you say that women is sexy someone can say that you are sexist ... (and walking with havy armor by women in medival was some kind of joke)

 

From ilusion to ilusion,

Edited December 3, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[SophosTheWise]

That's what often bothers me about some fantasy settings.

 

There's no racism, every race likes each other (well, except for the usual good vs. bad race story), people are hygienic most of the time (I can see hilarious quest- and story potential in throwing out feces out of one's windows), people aren't really sexist and there are a lot of female warriors and so on and so on. I don't really care about those things if they are single occurences, but it bothers me when a fantasy world is perfeclty evolved in every way, politically correct and without edges. Roleplaying, for me, is conflict. Be it moral conflict, battles - it's about conflict and not about comfort zones.

[Agelastos]

I think some sexism is good but I'd try and balance it if at all possible since I feel that it's generally woman always getting the shaft. For example I know that in one book I read that handling money and bartering was seen as unmanly, in another it was reading that wasn't something men did. I'd rather see culturally related sexism along those lines rather than the typical men do the fighting women make the babies sexism.

 

Of course this could all work the other way. We could also see matriarchal societies, where men are the ones facing discrimination.

 

isn't that more of a sci-fi trope?

 

It's common in fantasy, alternative/speculative history, and other speculative fiction genres too.

For instance, pre-proto-Indo-European societies are often depicted as matriarchal/gynocractic in fiction (mostly because of the widespread cult of the cthtonic "Mother Goddess").

The definition of the term "matriarchal", in archaeological and anthropological contexts, has changed pretty drastically since it was first coined.

It's no longer exclusively used for gynocracies (which have probably never existed).

Today it is also used to refer to any society that is/was matrifocal and is believed to be/have been gender egalitarian.

Some contemporary hunter-gatherer societies in Melanesia could be described as "matriarchal".

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[Ulquiorra]

delated

Edited December 3, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[Sacred_Path]

For instance, pre-proto-Indo-European societies are often depicted as matriarchal/gynocractic in fiction (mostly because of the widespread cult of the cthtonic "Mother Goddess").

 

O really? I thought we had moved past that since the 80's but my overview of general fiction isn't wide enough to argue that.

 

BTW I was talking about the 'Amazonian women enslave/ abuse male drones' kind of trope, not any old variation of matriarchy

[Mandragore]

i'd like sexism

as well as racism

as well as homophobic humour

stacked well and safe to where it socially belongs

 

and this is not a troll

 

i also would like children as killable as everything else

but this was alrdy spoken of

 

Lets toss rape in there as well because, you know, it's realistic.

 

When you encounter one of these themes in a novel, do you just close your eyes and turn the page? Why all the squeamishness? Its this exact expectation that fantasy games should be lighthearted and juvenile that keeps their narratives so immature.

 

Personally I like dark fantasy; I hope Obsidian implements all of these things and more.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Mandragore

[Agelastos]

For instance, pre-proto-Indo-European societies are often depicted as matriarchal/gynocractic in fiction (mostly because of the widespread cult of the cthtonic "Mother Goddess").

 

O really? I thought we had moved past that since the 80's but my overview of general fiction isn't wide enough to argue that.

 

BTW I was talking about the 'Amazonian women enslave/ abuse male drones' kind of trope, not any old variation of matriarchy

 

Did you even read the rest of my post? I think I mentioned some contemporary "matriarchal" societies.

 

A matriarchal society doesn't have to be misandric. Just like a patriarchal society doesn't have to misogynistic.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Agelastos

[Sacred_Path]

A matriarchal society doesn't have to be misandric. Just like a patriarchal society doesn't have to misogynistic.

 

Except that's exactly what I was talking about. And when I said 'old' I did not mean 'not contemporary'.

 

But for the sake of argument... I think if you play out gender inequality in a game there's no way to not make it a bit demeaning in nature, otherwise the whole thing doesn't affect the player. If you want to portray an archaic patriarchal society it just begs to express views like 'women aren't built for physical labour or warfare, so they must be kept in the house' (and I'm not even going to argue if that is truly misogynistic, that's semantics).