Anthropomorphic animal races in Project Eternity?

[jezz555]

group of humans

 

Debatable...okay I'll stop

[Jojobobo]

I wouldn't like to see anthropomorphic animal races. They strike me as lacking ingenuity as all you basically done is select a animal race, enlarged or shrank it to human like proportions and made it stand on two feet - where's the creativity in that? Obviously you create some creativity through lore and such but untimately the race is just a walking animal. That's why I think the Orlan and Aumaua are definitely good ideas, the devs have to get creative with them as they are brand new concepts - they'll obviously have drawn inspiration from somewhere but it's not as derivative as just using a regular everyday animal.

 

Saying that, I don't see why there could be animalistic subraces. We have no idea how these races came to be; maybe the Orlan were originally some sort of animal that elevated itself to sentience, began walking on two feet and over time became significantly different from the base animal (just like we're quite distinct from the majority of primates). In that regard you could get a throwback subrace that reflected more their primitive roots; with claws, slit eyes, sharp teeth and an excess of body hair - that sort of thing.

 

I don't think it's arrogant for humans to be in a fantasy setting, it gives people a race to play that is distinctly like they and so for most people makes the game more relatable.

[Pony]

Real beast races (not anthro) could be nice

Agreed, I'd like to see sentient beasts too... as a playable race. Would be fun to live without being able to use 80% of loot.

And in my opinion anthropomorphic animals and common humans are equally boring.

[wanderon]

They're a sexual fetish subculture that believes it is extremely important that everyone on Earth should be exposed to the most graphic depictions of their sexual fantasies, and that any and all intellectual properties would be vastly improved if all the characters were anthropomorphic animals who had anatomically correct animal genitals and had graphic sex scenes.

 

You sure? Can't say I've encountered anyone like that. Or could it be that you are making wild assumptions and use broad generalization?

 

What??? Wild assumptions and broad generalizations? On the internet????????

[Cryticus]

I said it once, puting furry and lack of creativity aside, in the end all anthro races will be generelised, by players in to generic form, look at TES one of the more long runing series, that had anthro races almost from the start, they made long , deep interesting culture, and origins, Argonians, are supposed to be actualy realated more closly, to trees than lizards, khajits, form is based on the moon, and rangeing from normal cat, to tiger-man , and now to the point in the end they are just thouse lizard man and thouse cat man from TES, this is the problem ,with it no matter how hard you try it will always be that furry race of your game.

Also people may point out that only minority sexualise, furrys but this is vocal again TES in morrowind there is hard to get book whoes whole point serve as eater egg, and the fact that whole joke is " hurhur Human-LIzard sex", now this is runing joke of series, there was in-game book sequal to that in-game book, and character of lizard maid has more fan-art than some of the plot critical charcters from game.

[Mandragore]

Then you likely haven't seen much of them, and I envy you.

From what I've read they're people who like to dress up as humanoid-animals and in some instances have sex with one another.

 

Not my thing but so long as they're not harming anyone I don't see the big deal.

 

They're a sexual fetish subculture that believes it is extremely important that everyone on Earth should be exposed to the most graphic depictions of their sexual fantasies, and that any and all intellectual properties would be vastly improved if all the characters were anthropomorphic animals who had anatomically correct animal genitals and had graphic sex scenes.

 

I'm going to second this, as it describes pretty much every furry I've ever had the misfortune to encounter. Further, although they all claim its the case, I've never met one who wasn't some sort of in your face weirdo pervert with a plethora of vomit inducing fetishes that they can't wait to inform you on in graphic detail. It seems like most of the non-furries in the thread are well aware of this to. That being the case, can we just kill this abortion of a thread already? The question it asked seems to have been answered with a resounding NO.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Mandragore

[TrashMan]

Furries ruin everything. EVERYTHING.

 

[ijusten]

I read the whole topic and the answers disappoint me. Really? You'd sacrifice gameplay because somebody is going to wank over it? If we really are going to have an issue over that, there isn't much left on the game. Elves? Gone. Horses and other pack-animals? Gone. Exotic clothing? Gone. Any relationships before proper marriage? Gone. Rule 34. You may want to google it (but not at work).

 

But to the topic itself.

 

I'm for anthropomorphic races. For several reasons;

 

- First, because elves/dwarves etc. are just "humans with pointy ears"/"small humans with beards". It's very easy to see why these races would go along with humans. At worst the equivalent real-world scenario would be jews and general population in the early 20th century Europe. It's very hard to these races as "The Other", as dictates by the story. For example, in Dragon Age the treatment of elves as racism was hard to understand because it reminded us of our own minorities. In other words; elves and dwarves are treated like human minorities, not as races on their own right. Big part of this is that the difference between white human male and white elven male are smaller in appearance than between African and European males before colonisation.

 

On the other hand, if instead of elves, the humans had gone against the earlier mentioned rat-people, player would have been more inclined to see the game's view of the side, and looking "past the differences" would actually have been a real accomplishment.

 

-Second. On the other hand, I'm not really into humanising the other races too much (which might have been evident from the earlier point). When you see, say, a "cat-person" you're not supposed to go "aww, how cute". What you're supposed to think is IT'S A LION IN ARMOUR. Mano a mano, YOU'RE GONNA DIE. And I don't mean "lion in armour" like this. If it's just the head and hands that are different, we're back in the "elves are human minority" problem again. This gnoll is actually a very good example. Think seeing him running a grocery store at the big city! Perfectly harmless, upstanding citizen.. but you suspect that when you talk to him, he's going to see food. In a way, I'd like to see that "racism", if you will, isn't just irrational behaviour but something you can really justify, and not just in the "they're gonna steal our jobs" kind of way.

 

Can I emphasise that I disliked the way Oblivion handled this? The differences between races were just in the face and few stats. They all paid their taxes and the cultures were limited to what spices were used in the food.

 

-Third. OK, this is a bit strange, because I'm going to talk of different settings as they were part of some bigger continuum. While I don't think of it as such, "elves" and "dwarves" are moved from setting to setting very easily and they are always related to ideal template. I'm going to argue that template has been flanderized. At this point, elves are just long-lived humans with pointy ears. In older stories elves aren't supposed to have souls and dwarves were supposed to be born from the rock itself, just to drop few facts from early D&D and Tolkien. In even earlier stories, elves were supposed to be scary in the same way that "gray aliens" tend to be seen as scary.

 

Obviously we can't really return to that with elves (people would revolt) but creating new races that could take that place in the stories - not just as enemies (as gnolls are in D&D), but as things that don't really see humans as collective danger - or even danger per se. Perhaps because they see their position as secure (as a nation/race) or because they see themselves individually better than the other races - and for a good and factual reason. To get back to racism, would the point of Ku Klux Klan have been better if white people would live 500 years against black people's 50 years? If the blacks really were savages that couldn't understand higher magic? And so on.

 

Summa summarum. I think history is very enlightening. The adventures of Livingstone, the Mongol Horde, KKK, disputes over languages in European countries... today we can see these things from above, think these things factually and think of them as small and insignificant things to fight over. But what people actually saw and thought back then.. to the black tribes, Livingstone with his guns must have been something else; The Mongol horde could as well have been *uruk-hai*, the KKK really thought that what they were doing had basis in facts. Looking back into these times and trying to see to understand the reactions of people THEN should be tried to moved into game-setting. We should try to see these small and insignificant things and in the game-setting make them into large and justifiable. I'm tired of playing fantasy settings where everybody thinks and acts like well-educated modern Americans. Nothing smells bad and everybody is clean, even as lavatories are just holes in the ground and nobody washes themselves OR their clothes. Having races that make you feel like you've dropped into a cage in the zoo - a cage you share with an intelligent predator - well, THAT'S interesting. And just because you're potential prey doesn't mean you turn into ACTUAL prey. Think Life of Pi (trailer, as I haven't actually seen the film).

 

Thank you for reading this far.

[Tagaziel]

For a first post, that's a... Wow. Words fail me.

 

Awesome.

[ijusten]

For a first post, that's a... Wow. Words fail me.

 

Awesome.

 

Thank you. Spent an hour writing and then fixing the text (still full of missing words and odd grammar!). Hope it brought something to the conversation. Justifying everything with furries seemed awfully strange. I think that if you can see the animal races as cute and cuddly.. well, that's the same as seeing immortal, highly intelligent elves with hundreds of years of life experience as just normal people with pointy ears and anorexia.

 

(Now, looking for an avatar.)

[DreamDancer]

@ijusten

 

You bring up some interesting points. I also don't like the fact that most animal based races are just humans with an animal head and fur. They should differ enough in behaviour to distinguish them clearly as nonhuman.

 

Now about history...if you look back the fascination and sometimes worship of animal spirits and gods is deeply rooted within mankind. Even today we like to attribute certain animal characteristics and traits to another human. Clever like a fox, lone wolf, etc. That's why I don't understand the issues some people seem to have with beastlike races in a fantasy setting. It gives opportunity for fun and engaging stories that very much resemble the ancient myths and lore, once told by shamans and priests. Just look at some of the ancient pantheons like the Egyptian for example. Anthropomorphic deities galore.

 

Also, we already have gnolls as a common staple of fantasy settings. Basically hyena anthros. Oh, and Minotaurs. If they don't make them playable races at least have a variety of them in the game as NPC races with diverse and interesting cultures.

[Cultist]

Furries ruin everything. EVERYTHING.

 

 

 

 

 

[ijusten]

>Now about history...if you look back the fascination and sometimes worship of animal spirits and gods is deeply rooted within mankind. [...] Anthropomorphic deities galore.

 

This is true, but I think our views on why they are so common differ. I'm going to write a rant here, just for the pleasure of it!

 

A little background to my view; few months ago I read books about local believes for an article. I thought and talked about this subject at length. I'm also from one of those places where you can say "when people still believed in the old things" and refer to people who are still alive. My grandparents still believed in house tomtes (I can't get the highlight to work, so here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomte). I've hiked to places which were local focal points for beliefs, and I must say that even as I'm educated city-dweller, standing next to the natural monuments make it very easy to think that maybe there was something in the stories after all.

 

Now, if you think about it, our "mastery over nature" is rather recent accomplishment, tied to our lives in towns and cities. Our belief that there's nothing outside our windows but natural is rather easy when all you see out of the window is man-made (or, if you see trees etc., are there because we have decided to not hack them down). Anything that you can't understand is easy to handwave as an action of a fellow human. It was different when your homestead was next to (or even in the middle of) forest. And I don't mean those small hundred acre-type things, but proper things were you can get lost and wander for days without finding your way out. Your livestock was always threatened by predators such as wolves; lynx might attack you personally even on your backyard. Fox might get in to the henhouse etc. Without modern firearms, electric torches and fences, protecting or doing anything about these things was rather difficult. You just had curse what ever animal was responsible (and finding out what the culprit was was easy due to tracks). And if you left the house-stead for woods (and many of the collected stories I read started in such way), there was always danger you wouldn't get back (after all, you wouldn't have a compass nor a map; there also wouldn't be any roads or man-made tracks). It's easy enough on daylight, but once the night comes, you can't see anything.. but everybody can see you.

 

And if you happen broke your leg by falling into a burrow? Dead. Encountered a bear? Dead. Wolves? Dead. Just got lost? Dead, or at least takes days to get back (and this is provided you can find water and food). Even a moose might attack you if you look at it wrong.

 

What I'm trying to say here, that before we moved to towns and/or cities being "the smartest species on the block" might have helped us make tools, but once you were in the woods, all that smarts just meant that you had a knife on your belt (and perhaps a bow and arrows if you were hunting). And you couldn't run, because the ground is full of rocks and fallen trees. And bears have claws. They're also rather smart. And running on four legs isn't all that difficult.

 

So, these were the cards. When you start wishing that you survive your oncoming trip to the woods, you're going to pray. And who are you going to pray to? To the rather intelligent-feeling other animals (because back in those days, it wasn't us vs. them), particularly you would pray to bears, the kings of the forest.

 

What would be the use to pray for human-spirits? They live on areas that you are on rather good ground already. And if you met one, you could always try to talk it out (there are plenty of stories of that as well). But forest? Bears? Thats like jumping to water where sharks were known to live. There's no talking. Just wishing that if you encounter a bear, he will look favourably on you and let you live.

 

Something on the attitude about bears might be implied here, if you are interested; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peijainen

 

>Also, we already have gnolls as a common staple of fantasy settings. Basically hyena anthros. Oh, and Minotaurs.

 

Yes, I mentioned gnolls. Even linked to a picture that was akin to my own thoughts on the subject I don't like minotaurs as they are basically tall humans with cow's head. Sometimes they have fur. I prefer my other races to be somewhat more animal-like.

[DreamDancer]

I like your explanation and I am sure it does explain the strong ties to nature and specific animals that was common for certain cultures. I was coming from a more mythological and psychological angle. Assigning human traits to certain animals and then again assigning them back to human personalities is something uniquely human.

 

It is a fascinating topic and studying ancient history and cultures is one of my hobbies anyway. There are a few examples that show how strongly the bond between human and animal was. Don't have the time to write an essay right now, so I'll just mention my favorites.

 

The Egyptian pantheon, cats held in high regard, gods like Anubis, Jackal headed god of Death Rites and Burial. Jackals and canines in general were seen as Guardians of the West which was considered the Realm of the Dead.

 

The Greek Pantheon and Mythology. Zeus constantly morphing into animal form to create a mess, or gods turning humans into animal/human hybrids. Actually, most staple creatures in nowadays fantasy settings stem from Greek mythology. It's just that rich.

 

In regards to this topic, all I am saying is that it would be a shame not to draw from our rich history with animal spirits or races.

[jezz555]

Furries are easily startled, but they've come back and in greater numbers

Edited November 24, 2012 by jezz555

[forgottenlor]

Looks like the races are already defined and we aren't getting any. I loved the animal races in the Wizardry series and the Elder Scrolls.

[Kamfrenchie]

What still bothers me is where the line between unimaginative anthros and other potentialy interesting beast-like species is drawn.

 

Is it the size ? The fact that they are bipedal ?

 

Because honestly, I'm afraid any "evolved" society whose members use tools require bipedism and probably humanoid form. Because you need 2 hands (or similar members) to create tools and all that. A specie of telepathic wolves isn't gonna build much of anything afaik, because there is only so much you can do with your mouch and paws.

 

How about a society of raptor-like beings ? does that count ? Or a society of intelligent bear ?%0

[Elerond]

 

There should be Cheetaurs, if there is any bestial races .

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It all depends. I'm a bit tired of the standard "Human with animal heads, fur(or scales), and possibly a tail" that seems to result when these creatures are included. I wouldn't mind if Obsidian tried something different for bestial races, but I don't think that they should be humanoid.

 

As far as it being "vain" to put Human in every fantasy setting, I don't think that they are complete analogues to humans IRL. How many people do you know that can shoot fireballs, wield a blade effectively enough to slay something several times their size, or are able to stand a blast of intense flame?

[necromate]

Check this out, octopuses seem to be rather smart and have personalities o.o

 

http://www.orionmaga...s/article/6474/

Edited November 24, 2012 by necromate

[Mandragore]

Furries ruin everything. EVERYTHING.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off topic, but I just realized what your profile pick is from. You have god-tier taste in graphic novels my friend.

 

Now lets exterminatus this thread already before it fills up with more furry sockpuppets...

[necromate]

Furries ruin everything. EVERYTHING.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off topic, but I just realized what your profile pick is from. You have god-tier taste in graphic novels my friend.

 

Now lets exterminatus this thread already before it fills up with more furry sockpuppets...

 

 

Too lazy to type...

[anubite]

Furries ruin everything, etc. please no thanks you guys are already getting a MLP fighting game just stay away from RPGs Skyrim was creepy enough with dinosaur/cat people.

[DreamDancer]

It all depends. I'm a bit tired of the standard "Human with animal heads, fur(or scales), and possibly a tail" that seems to result when these creatures are included. I wouldn't mind if Obsidian tried something different for bestial races, but I don't think that they should be humanoid.

 

I think the reason behind making them more like humans, mimicking certain patterns of known behaviour, is to be able to relate to them better. If a race is presented to you that is completely alien your options of interacting with them are rather limited. Beast races usually draw from a pool of commonly shared knowledge, like Gnolls featuring a wolf like pack structure, more acute senses and a very simple human intelligence.

 

It is mostly about expectations and how much you stay true to them. Like having the Khajiit as the prime candidate for rogues and hunters, because you relate them to cats, who are predatory, smart and manipulative. Its quite a lot of fun to play with these concepts and contradict them sometimes, so there are ways to make your average beast race more interesting than just adhering to the expected standards.

[Gyges]

Only if they actually make them not just humans-with-fur-and-animal-faces. Because its uncreative and cant be done properly without removing them further away from the bipedal human wannabe. ALSO: