About Ciphers..

[morrow1nd]

Maybe you should explain how psionics work. I've only seen them in a NWN mod where they have been existing mage spells with a pointsystem like the traditional mp-system. Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

 

Just check Pazio's '' Psionics Unleashed '' then you will have good idea mate.. too long to explain for me

 

==>> http://www.d20pfsrd....onics-unleashed

Edited November 22, 2012 by morrow1nd

[JFSOCC]

Maybe you should explain how psionics work. I've only seen them in a NWN mod where they have been existing mage spells with a pointsystem like the traditional mp-system. Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

 

Just check Pazio's '' Psionics Unleashed '' then you will have good idea mate.. too long to explain for me

 

==>> http://www.d20pfsrd....onics-unleashed

So they're wizards/sorcerers.

[Jarmo]

I'm not too hopeful. Seems it's going to be a kind of mage, with some mind reading abilities.

And I bet the possible mind reading wont feature in every conversation like it should, or not widely enough.

The rest of the abilities... a kind of wizard. We'll see if it's over- or underpowered compared to the regular kind.

 

Could be great, but I have a feeling it's one of those things that feel much better on the first thought than later on.

[Doppelschwert]

Maybe you should explain how psionics work. I've only seen them in a NWN mod where they have been existing mage spells with a pointsystem like the traditional mp-system. Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

 

Just check Pazio's '' Psionics Unleashed '' then you will have good idea mate.. too long to explain for me

 

==>> http://www.d20pfsrd....onics-unleashed

 

That's basically the same as I've seen in the NWN mod. Wizards with mp instead of vancian magic and at glance I can't find any spells that wizards don't have. I don't really want to read through all of that stuff to spot the differences, so it would be kind if anyone went into the detail about how wizards are different from psionic class.

[Somna]

Maybe you should explain how psionics work. I've only seen them in a NWN mod where they have been existing mage spells with a pointsystem like the traditional mp-system. Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

 

Just check Pazio's '' Psionics Unleashed '' then you will have good idea mate.. too long to explain for me

 

==>> http://www.d20pfsrd....onics-unleashed

 

That's basically the same as I've seen in the NWN mod. Wizards with mp instead of vancian magic and at glance I can't find any spells that wizards don't have. I don't really want to read through all of that stuff to spot the differences, so it would be kind if anyone went into the detail about how wizards are different from psionic class.

 

Unique Class/Discipline defining powers for Psionics (i.e. I'm just picking a few, they aren't the only ones):

 

Metacreativity: Astral Construct (A Make-Your-Own-Monster power valid across all levels)

Clairsentience: Hypercognition (Give me an answer to my question, no side effects.)

Psychometabolism: Fusion (Exactly what the power says it does)

Psychokinesis: Fiery Discorporation (If you're close to a fire and use this, make a will saving throw if an attack will drop you to 0 HP or lower. Success = you don't exist for a day, come back at the closest fire from where you discorporated from after.)

Psychoportation: Mass Time Hop (Have everyone affected skip X hours.)

Telepathy: Psychic Chirurgery (Super-cure for all mental effects, negative levels and ability damage/drain, can give another psionic user extra powers.)

 

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

 

Assimilate

Shadow Body

Decerebrate (instant death that isn't instant death)

Fuse Flesh (read it, it's disgusting what it does to the target.)

Personality Parasite

Correspond

Touchsight

Feat Leech

Sense Link

Synesthete

 

And this is just the Psion/Wilder list.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Somna

[Jarmo]

Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

 

..

That's basically the same as I've seen in the NWN mod. Wizards with mp instead of vancian magic and at glance I can't find any spells that wizards don't have. I don't really want to read through all of that stuff to spot the differences, so it would be kind if anyone went into the detail about how wizards are different from psionic class.

 

Unique Class/Discipline defining powers for Psionics (i.e. I'm just picking a few, they aren't the only ones):

 

So... Psionists have different spell lists?

 

 

Compare, difference between D&D Clerics and Wizards:

Clerics can use more weapons and armor, tend to have less combat and more healing magic than wizards.

[Somna]

Either theres more to that, or giving them psionics sounds like a wizard clone. I'll glady state my opinion on that, as soon as I know what to talk about.

 

..

That's basically the same as I've seen in the NWN mod. Wizards with mp instead of vancian magic and at glance I can't find any spells that wizards don't have. I don't really want to read through all of that stuff to spot the differences, so it would be kind if anyone went into the detail about how wizards are different from psionic class.

 

Unique Class/Discipline defining powers for Psionics (i.e. I'm just picking a few, they aren't the only ones):

 

So... Psionists have different spell lists?

Psionics is a magic system, not a class.

 

I read Doppleschwert's comment as asking how the spell list was different because it sounded like he wanted an idea of how the magic is flavored. So I listed examples for him.

 

 

Compare, difference between D&D Clerics and Wizards:

Clerics can use more weapons and armor, tend to have less combat and more healing magic than wizards.

 

Psionics isn't a class in the link, it's a magic system. Your request is the equivalent of asking someone to compare Arcane Magic to a Cleric. Please look through morrow1nd's link first.

[Doppelschwert]

Unique Class/Discipline defining powers for Psionics (i.e. I'm just picking a few, they aren't the only ones):

 

Metacreativity: Astral Construct (A Make-Your-Own-Monster power valid across all levels)

Clairsentience: Hypercognition (Give me an answer to my question, no side effects.)

Psychometabolism: Fusion (Exactly what the power says it does)

Psychokinesis: Fiery Discorporation (If you're close to a fire and use this, make a will saving throw if an attack will drop you to 0 HP or lower. Success = you don't exist for a day, come back at the closest fire from where you discorporated from after.)

Psychoportation: Mass Time Hop (Have everyone affected skip X hours.)

Telepathy: Psychic Chirurgery (Super-cure for all mental effects, negative levels and ability damage/drain, can give another psionic user extra powers.)

 

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

 

Assimilate

Shadow Body

Decerebrate (instant death that isn't instant death)

Fuse Flesh (read it, it's disgusting what it does to the target.)

Personality Parasite

Correspond

Touchsight

Feat Leech

Sense Link

Synesthete

 

And this is just the Psion/Wilder list.

 

I see, thanks for making that list! Although it sounds like psionics should be restricted to settings where enemies use psionics as well for them to not feel out of place (I guess you can counter psionics only be means of using psionics yourself).

Most descriptions seem really nice but powerful at the same time (at least if you apply them to real life). Also, I'd rather like wizards and ciphers have mutual excluvie spell effects, as opposed to DnD where they overlap.

 

Overall ciphers seem like a fun class to play if they are modelled with psionics in mind. However, I'd rather not give them so much cool effects in their spelllist that other classes appear to be boring in comparison. They certainly should have some unique and powerful stuff, but not everything should be screaming awesome - or else they should be at least hard to play in order to reach that full potential.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Doppelschwert

[Somna]

Unique Class/Discipline defining powers for Psionics (i.e. I'm just picking a few, they aren't the only ones):

 

Metacreativity: Astral Construct (A Make-Your-Own-Monster power valid across all levels)

Clairsentience: Hypercognition (Give me an answer to my question, no side effects.)

Psychometabolism: Fusion (Exactly what the power says it does)

Psychokinesis: Fiery Discorporation (If you're close to a fire and use this, make a will saving throw if an attack will drop you to 0 HP or lower. Success = you don't exist for a day, come back at the closest fire from where you discorporated from after.)

Psychoportation: Mass Time Hop (Have everyone affected skip X hours.)

Telepathy: Psychic Chirurgery (Super-cure for all mental effects, negative levels and ability damage/drain, can give another psionic user extra powers.)

 

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

 

Assimilate

Shadow Body

Decerebrate (instant death that isn't instant death)

Fuse Flesh (read it, it's disgusting what it does to the target.)

Personality Parasite

Correspond

Touchsight

Feat Leech

Sense Link

Synesthete

 

And this is just the Psion/Wilder list.

 

I see, thanks for making that list! Although it sounds like psionics should be restricted to settings where enemies use psionics as well for them to not feel out of place (I guess you can counter psionics only be means of using psionics yourself).

Most descriptions seem really nice but powerful at the same time (at least if you apply them to real life). Also, I'd rather like wizards and ciphers have mutual excluvie spell effects, as opposed to DnD where they overlap.

 

Overall ciphers seem like a fun class to play if they are modelled with psionics in mind. However, I'd rather not give them so much cool effects in their spelllist that other classes appear to be boring in comparison. They certainly should have some unique and powerful stuff, but not everything should be screaming awesome - or else they should be at least hard to play in order to reach that full potential.

 

Given what they've described about the Cipher so far (which isn't much), if it was based on this as well, I'd expect Ciphers to have abilities that are similar to the powers in the Psychometabolism, Clairsentience and Telepathy disciplines.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Somna

[morrow1nd]

Thank you Somna for being kind and helpful

 

The major difference with Psionics and Spellcasters is that they use their own mind and body as a power source ( and they dont need materials to manifest an ability..)

Edited November 23, 2012 by morrow1nd

[Doppelschwert]

Thank you Somna for being kind and helpful

 

Sorry, I didn't meant to be ungrateful for your link..

Your answer was just *overqualified*, so to speak, but thanks anyway for the link.

I didn't know that this was free available on the net.

 

The major difference with Psionics and Spellcasters is that they use their own mind and body as a power source ( and they dont need materials to manifest an ability..)

 

I think that this alone wouldn't be sufficient to make the class interesting if they just had the same spells as wizards, which was my primary concern. Surely, it sets them apart lore-wise, but if the combat options were exactly the same I think you could as well play as a mage and pretend they use their mind/body as powersource. However, that doesn't seem to be the case so I'm fine with that.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Doppelschwert

[Umberlin]

Well, that's D&D, in the end. In this setting we're already using our souls, so there's question as to the worth or need of material spell components. I suppose that's one of the many things we just have yet to see, more information is coming though - eventually. In my mind Psionics, and Cyphers, share the sort of 'mind mage' slot of classes, and we definitely have that with their use of the mind, their mind (considered exceptional in this setting), being capable of manipulating their soul, and the souls of others. This suggests a mix of magic and mental prowess, so the real question is how that will manifest beyond the few examples we've been given.

 

Can it manipulate a person? That seems highly likely. Can it damage a person? Well, probably, but how exactly is a question that requires much more consideration, as are ideas like the source of its defensive capabilities: "Can it erect mental barriers, or is it highly armor dependant" or support abilities, "Can it heal itself/others or is it going to have to manage that through other means/persons" and even how the manipulative abilities will work in combat, as well as in a social situation (if it at all). Lots of things to be seen.

 

Personally I don't need them to manifest their mental prowess as mental blasts to do damage, but since they're already manipulating people's souls, with their minds, . . . one wonders what else that can do to the souls of others. Less mental blasts of the telekinetic sort, and more those inner, traumatic, mental attacks perhaps? Or is it another form of manipulation where the Cipher has to manipulate a person into harming themselves/others? Are they not capable of psychic attacks at all, and have to rely on martial weaponry?

 

So many possibilities, so many questions, we just don't have the answers yet. I'm rather eager to see what Obsidian have decided to do/decided not to do. I imagine lots of people here are eager for more information though. Patience . . . patience is slow going, I'd like to obtain it. Now. Heh. We'll see soon enough I suppose.

[SeekDWay]

Anything just no cooldowns.

[SGray]

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

Re-read those links... Well that was exactly the thing I was worried about. It could replace wizard and cleric in most important their fields (damage dealing, buffing, cleaning negative statuses, resurrecting), has different, much less rest-dependent mechanics, avoids common save throws and resistances (ability to add more power for higher saving throws, or no throw at all, pure and energy damage), has many non-standard (exploitable) crippling effects... More so, in non-combat situations also: environment awareness, any interaction with living creatures, transportation, lore checks, stealth even. So, psionic could not only substitute both wizard and cleric but excel them in most situations. Not to forget, that sole counter for psionic is another psionic. So he is the deadliest and the most useful member of party, others are mere shades on his greatness. And the most effective team is the team of psionics.

 

Don't want a class "more and better of everything" to be in PE, I'd want to vague on who I want to play, not to be forced to choose the overpowered one to be effective. But cant tell how exactly to cripple the psionic for it stays itself and not stays OP. More restrictive cast mechanic and less psi-kinetic manifestations mb?

[NerdBoner]

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

Re-read those links... Well that was exactly the thing I was worried about. It could replace wizard and cleric in most important their fields (damage dealing, buffing, cleaning negative statuses, resurrecting), has different, much less rest-dependent mechanics, avoids common save throws and resistances (ability to add more power for higher saving throws, or no throw at all, pure and energy damage), has many non-standard (exploitable) crippling effects... More so, in non-combat situations also: environment awareness, any interaction with living creatures, transportation, lore checks, stealth even. So, psionic could not only substitute both wizard and cleric but excel them in most situations. Not to forget, that sole counter for psionic is another psionic. So he is the deadliest and the most useful member of party, others are mere shades on his greatness. And the most effective team is the team of psionics.

 

Don't want a class "more and better of everything" to be in PE, I'd want to vague on who I want to play, not to be forced to choose the overpowered one to be effective. But cant tell how exactly to cripple the psionic for it stays itself and not stays OP. More restrictive cast mechanic and less psi-kinetic manifestations mb?

you're over thinking it...

 

A Psion doesn't get all these powers and *poof* is suddenly better than all the other character classes. The Psion is empowered and limited by which discipline(s) it specializes in.

 

In essence having all those disciplines and powers available to the Psion class only means he has the option to develop along one or 2 of those paths, not all of them.

 

TL;DR - having more options as a class doesn't mean you GET all options as the class.

[Somna]

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

Re-read those links... Well that was exactly the thing I was worried about. It could replace wizard and cleric in most important their fields (damage dealing, buffing, cleaning negative statuses, resurrecting), has different, much less rest-dependent mechanics, avoids common save throws and resistances (ability to add more power for higher saving throws, or no throw at all, pure and energy damage), has many non-standard (exploitable) crippling effects... More so, in non-combat situations also: environment awareness, any interaction with living creatures, transportation, lore checks, stealth even. So, psionic could not only substitute both wizard and cleric but excel them in most situations. Not to forget, that sole counter for psionic is another psionic. So he is the deadliest and the most useful member of party, others are mere shades on his greatness. And the most effective team is the team of psionics.

 

Don't want a class "more and better of everything" to be in PE, I'd want to vague on who I want to play, not to be forced to choose the overpowered one to be effective. But cant tell how exactly to cripple the psionic for it stays itself and not stays OP. More restrictive cast mechanic and less psi-kinetic manifestations mb?

you're over thinking it...

 

A Psion doesn't get all these powers and *poof* is suddenly better than all the other character classes. The Psion is empowered and limited by which discipline(s) it specializes in.

 

In essence having all those disciplines and powers available to the Psion class only means he has the option to develop along one or 2 of those paths, not all of them.

 

TL;DR - having more options as a class doesn't mean you GET all options as the class.

 

Pretty much. What it does have is ease of use, in the sense that it's MUCH easier to use a Psion than, say, a Sorcerer. That is because of the mechanics being compared to the standard D&D/Pathfinder spellcasting system though. I definitely don't expect to see them apply Cipher-magic using a system completely different from other spellcasters, considering how much extra work that would be. If they do adopt the point/augment system for everything though, people might like it.

[morrow1nd]

These are all in the Discipline Specific Powerspage.

 

More general powers that are unique IMO and not just psionic analogues (like Breach vs. Knock) include:

Re-read those links... Well that was exactly the thing I was worried about. It could replace wizard and cleric in most important their fields (damage dealing, buffing, cleaning negative statuses, resurrecting), has different, much less rest-dependent mechanics, avoids common save throws and resistances (ability to add more power for higher saving throws, or no throw at all, pure and energy damage), has many non-standard (exploitable) crippling effects... More so, in non-combat situations also: environment awareness, any interaction with living creatures, transportation, lore checks, stealth even. So, psionic could not only substitute both wizard and cleric but excel them in most situations. Not to forget, that sole counter for psionic is another psionic. So he is the deadliest and the most useful member of party, others are mere shades on his greatness. And the most effective team is the team of psionics.

 

Don't want a class "more and better of everything" to be in PE, I'd want to vague on who I want to play, not to be forced to choose the overpowered one to be effective. But cant tell how exactly to cripple the psionic for it stays itself and not stays OP. More restrictive cast mechanic and less psi-kinetic manifestations mb?

you're over thinking it...

 

A Psion doesn't get all these powers and *poof* is suddenly better than all the other character classes. The Psion is empowered and limited by which discipline(s) it specializes in.

 

In essence having all those disciplines and powers available to the Psion class only means he has the option to develop along one or 2 of those paths, not all of them.

 

TL;DR - having more options as a class doesn't mean you GET all options as the class.

 

Pretty much. What it does have is ease of use, in the sense that it's MUCH easier to use a Psion than, say, a Sorcerer. That is because of the mechanics being compared to the standard D&D/Pathfinder spellcasting system though. I definitely don't expect to see them apply Cipher-magic using a system completely different from other spellcasters, considering how much extra work that would be. If they do adopt the point/augment system for everything though, people might like it.

 

^ thats what i'm hoping for

 

Have you been reading my mind, sir ?

[rjshae]

I have a notion for a Cipher-specific combat ability: Combat Lore.

 

Each round that the cipher has been fighting a civilized or semi-civilized creature, he automatically makes a lore skill check (opposed by the opponent's intelligence and level). On a success, he recognizes specific aspects of the fighting style and preferences, allowing him to draw upon obscure knowledge and make crafty adjustments to his tactics. This grants him a +1 bonus to attack and defense against that specific opponent.

[Osvir]

How are the Cipher manipulating the souls? Are souls existing everywhere? (in space/fabric micro cosmos~) If they bend and mold souls they could control every element (fire, wind, earth, water) like a "Bender" (Avatar: The Last Airbender). Or is souls more of a "philsophy", a spirit, changing the agenda of it or something abstract with the will of the mind?

 

Is the Cipher using a tool to manipulate the souls? In that case, if another class use this tool, would they learn to manipulate souls at an "apprentice" level?

 

If like a "Bender", I can see them as summoners, high councilors and advisers As Enchanters they would mold health and wealth, and curse the enemies, advisers and high councilors. Being a Cipher feels like "High Social Class" in some ways.

 

Likewise, they could be more "assassin". An agent, just as much as a commander. Elite Psi Ops. Medieval Ghosts (SC reference). Specially trained. The few who are "suburb" are either savants or rogue agents, or "undiscovered" talents. Rare.

 

A bit off-topic: "Rogue" Agents: Should the Rogue have some slight innate psionic ability differing from the Cipher? Like an ability that makes them invisible in shadows (I've flirted with this before) and they can move from one shadow to another for a duration of time, staying in light will reveal the Rogue, getting to another shadow would reset and stop the duration timer. Part of the Rogue's abilities could have ties with psionic stuff, but at a lower level mostly for distraction of foes (a [Mind Flash] ability on a single target close combat that dazzles the target opponent for a second or two so the Rogue can land a Sneak Attack perhaps?)

 

Rogue being able to "shift" through time and space for a second or two, dodging an attack and moving a space or two away from the opponent?

[Heresiarch]

How are the Cipher manipulating the souls? Are souls existing everywhere? (in space/fabric micro cosmos~) If they bend and mold souls they could control every element (fire, wind, earth, water) like a "Bender" (Avatar: The Last Airbender). Or is souls more of a "philsophy", a spirit, changing the agenda of it or something abstract with the will of the mind?

 

Is the Cipher using a tool to manipulate the souls? In that case, if another class use this tool, would they learn to manipulate souls at an "apprentice" level?

 

If like a "Bender", I can see them as summoners, high councilors and advisers As Enchanters they would mold health and wealth, and curse the enemies, advisers and high councilors. Being a Cipher feels like "High Social Class" in some ways.

 

Likewise, they could be more "assassin". An agent, just as much as a commander. Elite Psi Ops. Medieval Ghosts (SC reference). Specially trained. The few who are "suburb" are either savants or rogue agents, or "undiscovered" talents. Rare.

 

A bit off-topic: "Rogue" Agents: Should the Rogue have some slight innate psionic ability differing from the Cipher? Like an ability that makes them invisible in shadows (I've flirted with this before) and they can move from one shadow to another for a duration of time, staying in light will reveal the Rogue, getting to another shadow would reset and stop the duration timer. Part of the Rogue's abilities could have ties with psionic stuff, but at a lower level mostly for distraction of foes (a [Mind Flash] ability on a single target close combat that dazzles the target opponent for a second or two so the Rogue can land a Sneak Attack perhaps?)

 

Rogue being able to "shift" through time and space for a second or two, dodging an attack and moving a space or two away from the opponent?

 

Taking into account that all special abilities in PE are coming from souls, which I presume from the very little information we know about different classes, saying that cypher manipulates souls doesn't mean much. I believe the key concept is that cyphers are able to manipulate the souls of other living beings. This makes them more akin to psyonics (i.e. messing with other's heads), which sets them apart from other classes. I might be completely wrong, of course.

 

As for time-shifty rogues, I think such feat are more suitable for spell-heavier classes, while rogues should do something along the lines of moving so fast, that your spell missiles can't home in on them or you're unable to hit them with a sword, because they are so bloody dodgy. The effect is largely the same, but their kind of special abilities is more about hypertrophied normal ones and not entirely outlandish. You know, something more from the badass normal category.

 

Decado from Gemmell's Drenai saga comes to mind. He is just a warrior for the most part, but he is moving extremely fast. So fast that in a duel with a mind-reading spellsword Decado wins simply because his opponent doesn't have enough time to react, even though he knows what is going to happen in advance.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Heresiarch

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I've said it before, but I don't like the distinction that Cipher's manipulate souls, as it is implicit that other do not. In a magic system that is Vancian(ish), having a magic-user prohibited from casting other forms of magic is innane. As a biochemist, does this mean I cannot perform synthetic chemistry? Absolutely not! While one is a bit more practiced, I still excel at both as they are both chemistry and have more in common than not. I feel that magic (when not confined to the abomination of skill trees) should be similarly accessible.

 

I'm hoping that Ciphers turn out to be something of a prestige class such as a Shadow Adept within D&D, rather than a Necromancer from Diablo II.

[TMTVL]

I'm hoping the magic system isn't Vancian.

[rjshae]

I have a notion for a Cipher-specific combat ability: Combat Lore.

That'll teach me not to post on Christmas morning. This should have been on the Chanter thread. Sorry.

[Nonek]

Thinking about it, i'm drawn to the idea of a Cipher as a general of armies. With a whispered word in their minds he can command his own officers, or steal the battle plans of enemy generals out of their heads, perhaps even fill the attacking regiments with visions of fear and flight. One can imagine him, stood on a cliff top high above the battleground, playing chess with his armies and perhaps even growing fat feeding on the screaming souls that die in the muck and blood below.

[Cryticus]

I would like if they would make status effect actually matter in this game, and Ciphers seems like local Psychics so... What I would like to see is to make them people who can cast many curses , poisonse and status effects like this to make enemy much weaker, and later just finish him with basic attacks, by that I think they will be somewhat diffrent then typical mages