About Ciphers..

[morrow1nd]

Hi there all!

 

So what do you want to see in this class? ( or vice versa )

 

Whether about the combat mechanics or the social status of Ciphers in the PE world.

 

PS : I would really like read AGX-17's , Monte Carlo's, Karkarov's and Psyhcoblonde's opinions on this subject! (Seriously! .. )

Edited November 18, 2012 by morrow1nd

[Hellfell]

While wizards deal with all sorts of elemental and arcane magic, ciphers would use more subtle approaches in order it dispatch their foes. I expect ciphers to use spells like mind blast, charm, paralyze, illusions, phantoms, fear, blink, soul siphon (drains health), spell breaks, madness, confusion and the like. It will gently distinguish wizards as direct matter manipulators and ciphers as soul twisting masters.

 

 

[Agelastos]

While I do like psionics, I've always found it a little bit out of place in fantasy settings. It's more of a sci-fi trope. I'm also pretty sure that it's already been established that Ciphers will be soul manipulators. That doesn't mean that it won't be very similar to psionics, gameplay-wise, however.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Agelastos

[morrow1nd]

While wizards deal with all sorts of elemental and arcane magic, ciphers would use more subtle approaches in order it dispatch their foes. I expect ciphers to use spells like mind blast, charm, paralyze, illusions, phantoms, fear, blink, soul siphon (drains health), spell breaks, madness, confusion and the like. It will gently distinguish wizards as direct matter manipulators and ciphers as soul twisting masters.

 

We already have an ''Enchanter'' class..

Edited November 19, 2012 by morrow1nd

[Umberlin]

I like the idea as presented:

 

While wizards use complex formulae in large tomes and priests tap into the passion of their faith, ciphers are able to operate directly through the power of their minds... and yours^[1].

 

The idea is essentially that they, like others, use the soul, only its the power of the Cipher's mind that manipulates the soul, and, apparently, they're capable of manipulating the minds of others. I'm eager to see the combat applications of this, that Obsidian have decided on, of course, but my real interest in it is for dialogue purposes. As for Psionic style mental blasts and such? I'm not adverse to it, and, as long as it's well implemented and well explained, I can understand that they'd develope their abilities in many ways, including those meant for more direct forms of offense.

 

While I do like psionics, I've always found it a little bit out of place in fantasy settings. It's more of a sci-fi trope.

 

I rather disagree, and there are plenty of implementations over the years, of such class types - literally decades and decades worth - that I'd like to think that the idea that it's a sci-fi trope would be stamped out by now. Still, in regard to the Cipher, I don't think we have enough information to know, for sure, that Obsidian intend them to be such. It seems readily possible, even likely (it's hard not to draw a line between the Cipher and a D&D Psionic, simply because most of the classes are, essentially D&D Classes 'with a twist'), but they certainly haven't shown all their cards on the subject . . . yet.

[Agelastos]

 

I rather disagree, and there are plenty of implementations over the years, of such class types - literally decades and decades worth - that I'd like to think that the idea that it's a sci-fi trope would be stamped out by now. Still, in regard to the Cipher, I don't think we have enough information to know, for sure, that Obsidian intend them to be such. It seems readily possible, even likely (it's hard not to draw a line between the Cipher and a D&D Psionic, simply because most of the classes are, essentially D&D Classes 'with a twist'), but they certainly haven't shown all their cards on the subject . . . yet.

 

I said that it's MORE of a sci-fi trope, and that I find it a little bit out of place in fantasy settings (I don't mind it though). The fact that a lot of fantasy novels, films and RPGs have been using sci-fi tropes, and vice versa, ever since the New Wave of the 60s and 70s doesn't change the fact that psionics is first and foremost a sci-fi trope, just like magic is first and foremost a fantasy trope.

[gglorious]

I'd definitely prefer soul manipulators. As Agelastos points out, psionics is a sci fi trope. Also, I'd like to see how soul manipulation plays out, and the flavor of this slightly different concept, as I perceive it as less developed, so I know less about what to expect. I mean, I expect some mental manipulation, however, the problem is that a psionic class is expected to struggle against non-mental opponents, like undead, golems, magical constructs, etc, and I'd like to see how a soul manipulator is made to still be useful in combat like that. I mean, a psionic concept would either be forced to switch to pyrokinesis or psychokinetics or some form of buffing, but with a soul manipulator, the idea is less clear, and I think that the traditional psionic solutions will seem lame if implemented by a soul-manipulator, which makes the new potential solutions all the more interesting.

[Umberlin]

I rather disagree, and there are plenty of implementations over the years, of such class types - literally decades and decades worth - that I'd like to think that the idea that it's a sci-fi trope would be stamped out by now. Still, in regard to the Cipher, I don't think we have enough information to know, for sure, that Obsidian intend them to be such. It seems readily possible, even likely (it's hard not to draw a line between the Cipher and a D&D Psionic, simply because most of the classes are, essentially D&D Classes 'with a twist'), but they certainly haven't shown all their cards on the subject . . . yet.

 

I said that it's MORE of a sci-fi trope, and that I find it a little bit out of place in fantasy settings (I don't mind it though). The fact that a lot of fantasy novels, films and RPGs have been using sci-fi tropes, and vice versa, ever since the New Wave of the 60s and 70s doesn't change the fact that psionics is first and foremost a sci-fi trope, just like magic is first and foremost a fantasy trope.

 

The separation is meaningless, and needlessly restrictive of creativity. I might as well go about burning the last several decades worth of sci-fi.fantasy cross overs and mixtures, of which there are more than I could rightly count if I were to believe otherwise. We'd lose some of the most definitive Fantasy and Sci-Fi out there if anyone were to mind the pointless generalizations.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Umberlin

[gglorious]

The separation is meaningless, and needlessly restrictive of creativity. I might as well go about burning the last several decades worth of sci-fi.fantasy cross overs and mixtures, of which there are more than I could rightly count if I were to believe otherwise. We'd lose some of the most definitive Fantasy and Sci-Fi out there if anyone were to mind the pointless generalizations.

I feel like this debate is really kind of empty.

 

Saying something is more of a science fiction theme isn't to say that it's invalid for fantasy, only that it's less of a thematic fit in certain ways. That doesn't restrict creativity, boundaries are in some sense needed for creativity, as creativity needs to be able to play with boundaries and violate them. Without the boundary, there isn't the play or the violation. Kind of like with tropes, without a trope, you can't subvert it, and a subverted trope or a lampshaded trope is more interesting than no trope. Sometimes, you do want to play the trope straight though, as it provides more of what you desire.

 

So, right, I'm sure there are tons of fantasy worlds with psionics, and I'm sure there are tons of sci fi worlds with magic. There are lots of sci fi worlds with sword fighting as well. I mean, the variations are endless. It doesn't change the generalities and associations people will often make. And it's pretty much correct that psionics is less popular in fantasy, and very popular in sci fi, and that magic is very popular in fantasy and not as popular in science fiction, so... a generalization can be made, and a perception of themes. Especially given that the differences in acceptance are likely partly driven by background concepts.

[Agelastos]

I rather disagree, and there are plenty of implementations over the years, of such class types - literally decades and decades worth - that I'd like to think that the idea that it's a sci-fi trope would be stamped out by now. Still, in regard to the Cipher, I don't think we have enough information to know, for sure, that Obsidian intend them to be such. It seems readily possible, even likely (it's hard not to draw a line between the Cipher and a D&D Psionic, simply because most of the classes are, essentially D&D Classes 'with a twist'), but they certainly haven't shown all their cards on the subject . . . yet.

 

I said that it's MORE of a sci-fi trope, and that I find it a little bit out of place in fantasy settings (I don't mind it though). The fact that a lot of fantasy novels, films and RPGs have been using sci-fi tropes, and vice versa, ever since the New Wave of the 60s and 70s doesn't change the fact that psionics is first and foremost a sci-fi trope, just like magic is first and foremost a fantasy trope.

 

The separation is meaningless, and needlessly restrictive of creativity. I might as well go about burning the last several decades worth of sci-fi.fantasy cross overs and mixtures, of which there are more than I could rightly count if I were to believe otherwise. We'd lose some of the most definitive Fantasy and Sci-Fi out there if anyone were to mind the pointless generalizations.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm personally a big fan of New Weird and Slipstream. I just think that if you're to use stuff like psionics in Fantasy, it can't just be something that's thrown in there as an afterthought, which is often the case (like in most D&D settings - Dark Sun being the only exception that I can think of). There are some sub-genres of Fantasy (mostly of the Science Fantasy variety) in which it feels right at home. Dying Sun, for instance. Or Sword and Planet like Star Wars, I guess. But it usually feels horribly out of place in Medieval Fantasy.

But that's just my opinion.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Agelastos

[Kaz]

a psionic class is expected to struggle against non-mental opponents, like undead, golems, magical constructs, etc

 

This gave me an idea about ciphers and undead in general. What if undead in PE always had a traceable figure or force behind their animation? Perhaps the cipher might be able to sense the strings connecting master and servant, and sever the connection entirely, or trace the connection to reveal information about it's master. This could work for summoned creatures as well.

[SGray]

But it usually feels horribly out of place in Medieval Fantasy.

Illithids? Githzerai?

*Btw could be good examples of two paths for cipher. Manipulate other's will or form the world with your's.

 

Imo, what's difficult about psyonics and ciphers - they are too specialized by theirs nature. So to be equally useful with other classes they had to be either made generally same as others (just another kind of mages) or based on completely another options and still viable somehow against any opponent. Either way - it becomes a class exceptionally suitable for munchkins (as myself).

it's tough to balance completely new mechanics and foresee every exploit and cheesy way for character to become unstoppable killing/dominating machine (well, more so than others), without trimming most of skill applications and mechanics.

 

So, on my experience, most of the time, such "special mage" classes are approached extremely carefully, not allowing them any really outstanding differences, but still becoming the most abusive and overpowered class. I'd like if it were in mind when the class would be designed so it would be not another all-around with unintentionally broken abilities, but really different class with it's pros and cons, not derived from mage class. Personally I don't mind if they don't do as well as others in straight fights if there is something to make such choice worth it.

[Agelastos]

But it usually feels horribly out of place in Medieval Fantasy.

Illithids? Githzerai?

*Btw could be good examples of two paths for cipher. Manipulate other's will or form the world with your's.

 

The Illithids are abberations believed to hail from The Far Realm, a plane beyond the known Multiverse full of weird lovecraftian beings (doesn't get much more sci-fi than that).

The Githyanki and the Githzerai were created by the Illithids from human slaves.

I'm okay with them since they're not native to the Prime Material Plane, and because they're so rare. They still stick out in more "traditional" high fantasy settings, like Forgotten Realms, IMO, but since all settings are part of the same Multiverse I guess their presence is justified... Unfortunately, that rule can be applied to pretty much any creature from any D&D setting.

[JFSOCC]

I've never played with the psionic classes, so I can't answer your poll

[Archmage Silver]

1. Obsidian's Choice

2. No

3. Cooldowns

 

Simply because psionics were overpowered in (A)D&D.

[wanderon]

Yet another totally flawed poll - there should be an instruction video that everyone posting a poll has to see and pass a quiz on before being allowed to post one or a committee that checks for validity before the poll is actually posted and if found to be invalid send thugs to visit the offending member and break a small bone or two as they explain his mistakes.

 

Consider this - if your poll has multiple questions - keep in mind there must be answer choices in the additional questions that relate to every choice in the previous questions - because you cannot complete the poll unless you answer ALL the questions!

[NerdBoner]

But it usually feels horribly out of place in Medieval Fantasy.

Illithids? Githzerai?

*Btw could be good examples of two paths for cipher. Manipulate other's will or form the world with your's.

 

Imo, what's difficult about psyonics and ciphers - they are too specialized by theirs nature. So to be equally useful with other classes they had to be either made generally same as others (just another kind of mages) or based on completely another options and still viable somehow against any opponent. Either way - it becomes a class exceptionally suitable for munchkins (as myself).

it's tough to balance completely new mechanics and foresee every exploit and cheesy way for character to become unstoppable killing/dominating machine (well, more so than others), without trimming most of skill applications and mechanics.

 

So, on my experience, most of the time, such "special mage" classes are approached extremely carefully, not allowing them any really outstanding differences, but still becoming the most abusive and overpowered class. I'd like if it were in mind when the class would be designed so it would be not another all-around with unintentionally broken abilities, but really different class with it's pros and cons, not derived from mage class. Personally I don't mind if they don't do as well as others in straight fights if there is something to make such choice worth it.

 

mages in DnD were anything but balanced and at higher levels were close to demi-gods compared to other classes...balance was never even a factor unless you consider that they sucked during their early levels.

 

I don't expect Obsidian to overly concern themselves with making each class "equal" or as viable during combat as all the others. Ciphers may well excel in combat compared to other classes...or may just as likely suck. Likewise they may be supreme in non-combat social scenarios while being fragile in a tight spot.

 

I'd like for every class to be, to FEEL, different and this means some will end up being more powerful than others.

[Sacred_Path]

I don't expect Obsidian to overly concern themselves with making each class "equal" or as viable during combat as all the others.

 

Since every class they've talked about had some kind of reference to combat abilities, I think you're wrong.

 

If they did anything like "Ciphers are crap at combat, but they can solve most quests by reading minds" that would not make the Cipher a balanced class, but suck on both ends.

 

I think Ciphers could make do with some good (de)buffs, i.e. in Wiz 8 Haste and Slow were Psionicist spells. Dunno the justification for that, except probably that they not only fiddle with brains but also the nervous system.

[NerdBoner]

I didn't say i wanted ciphers to be sh*t at combat...on the contrary I think it might even be a great candidate class for the "final Villain", given there is one. Imagine a charismatic villain who can subtly manipulate the minds of kings and enemies alike to achieve his ends...sounds like a force to be reckoned with, especially if the manipulated don't even realize it's happening.

 

~~

 

all things considered i'd like them to discard the DnD notions of Psioniscists in favor of a more traditional psychic powers approach...

 

Combat cipher's could specialize in telekinesis or pyrokinesis etc etc while more investigative or social oriented players could focus on Psychometry or telepathic powers.

 

I really think the sky is the limit when it comes to this class and hope they don't just try to imitate DnD stuff

[pzp11]

When I read ciphers as ones drawing energy from the soul I just thought it's something like a sorcerer but not magic.

 

And considering it's skill being related to soul and mind manipulation maybe it's something like a alteration / illusionist / rogue / bard mixup.

 

I was also thinking it could also add steampunk machinery kinda element to it too? But that might reduce the raw feel of a pure sorcerer. Maybe put that as a subclass.

[Alexjh]

While I disagree with the perception of psionics are as purely sci-fi concept, equally when psionic (of the trained varieties, not species which possess it naturally) are shoehorned into a world already containing several other flavours of magic, it can feel a bit.... overloaded as a setting, particularly as quite often, unlike the others magics, they aren't given a clear place in the world. Clerics get their power from their deities and use it for the will of that deity, wizards study arcana in old tomes and whatnot and often use their powers to fight for their personal causes.

 

Psionics though... are a bit harder to pin down, are they learned or innate powers is the first question?

 

One solution would be for part of their repertoire be taken from what are classically wizard/sorcerer spells - stuff like invisibility, enhance attributes, hold person, sleep, fear and so on. Remove these from wizards, and then add in a few unique powers and ability and it and you end up with two distinct classes with more specific roles.

[NerdBoner]

^ my impression is that Cipher's are born not made since they are considered outsiders by society...most people wouldn't want to live like that if they had a choice.

 

so all in all a Cipher is born with potential but must train that potential to be strong. Other classes choose to be what they are (or its chosen for them by culture or upbringing e.g perhaps priests, monks and barbarians)

[AGX-17]

While I disagree with the perception of psionics are as purely sci-fi concept, equally when psionic (of the trained varieties, not species which possess it naturally) are shoehorned into a world already containing several other flavours of magic, it can feel a bit.... overloaded as a setting, particularly as quite often, unlike the others magics, they aren't given a clear place in the world. Clerics get their power from their deities and use it for the will of that deity, wizards study arcana in old tomes and whatnot and often use their powers to fight for their personal causes.

 

Psionics though... are a bit harder to pin down, are they learned or innate powers is the first question?

 

One solution would be for part of their repertoire be taken from what are classically wizard/sorcerer spells - stuff like invisibility, enhance attributes, hold person, sleep, fear and so on. Remove these from wizards, and then add in a few unique powers and ability and it and you end up with two distinct classes with more specific roles.

 

The idea of psychics is another example of space magic masquerading as sci-fi. Some "sci-fi" comes up with wild explanations for it, which is better than typical fantasy magic which tends to go unexplained beyond "a wizard did it," but it is still space magic in the end.

[Strill]

I've never played with the psionic classes, so I can't answer your poll

In D&D they were pretty much Wizards but with MP instead of Vancian magic.

[Agelastos]

While I disagree with the perception of psionics are as purely sci-fi concept,

 

I never said that. I said that it was MORE of a sci-fi concept, and that it often felt out of place in (Medieval) Fantasy settings.

 

equally when psionic (of the trained varieties, not species which possess it naturally) are shoehorned into a world already containing several other flavours of magic, it can feel a bit.... overloaded as a setting, particularly as quite often, unlike the others magics, they aren't given a clear place in the world.

 

THAT was the point I was trying to make, especially in my third post.

Maybe I wasn't very clear. It can be a bit tricky to debate in a language that isn't your mother tongue.