Awesome Interview with Avellone

[Volourn]

On top of that, it's hard tot ake the argument that PST wasn't 'original' because of existing lore when Fo;NV is based on lore made over multiple games over the past 15 years. Get over it.

 

That said, the ani romance thing is silly since romance should be seen as just another way to add to the story and characters as well motivations for plot movement as well as oodles of C&C. Plus, not all romances have to be cheesy or lovey dovey. There's so many creative ways to use it just like anything else.

 

How about have the PC meet an NPC early on, have a relationship, and have the 'big bad' (or side big bad) murder them and use that as motivation for the chaarcter. 8SHRUG*

 

Why do both sides of thata rgument lack imagination? *sigh*

[-Zin-]

Yes. It's optional and attracts more customers than not having it.

Where does this "it's optional" sentiment come from? A good romance isn't "optional" in the sense you imply. If a romance were to be well written it would resonate in everything the character says and does in some way or another, no matter if you go down the actual romance path or not. His rejection or acceptance, his attitude, his outlook, his plight- these are all things that would be affected by having the character be involved in a romance with the PC. That's why romances are so hard to write well.

 

It's easy to write an optional romance. Writing one that is good is a completely different matter because everything about the character would have to tie in to the romance in some way as you cannot have this sort of path - even if it were just a path you can take or not take - without it being organically spawned from the nature and theme of the character in question.

 

Where does this optional romance come from? From none other than CHRIS AVELLONE. (See link)

 

(http://forums.obsidi...aracterization/)

 

Paying attention the companions and exploring their personality is optional, and that's why there's a bloody adventurer's hall where you can make your own companions that won't have personalities, but have optimized stats for the 'hard core' people.

 

Also, what were you saying about romance a short while ago after reading Chris Avellone's latest interview?

 

 

"The best man who has ever lived on this beautiful planet Earth, clearly.

Suck it down, promancers.

 

Chris Avellone is going to make you his - (Can I write that? He'd write that, if he posted on forums. But if I get banned I can't heckle you guys anymore so I guess I'll play it safe.)" - Jasede

 

 

Alright. That's fair enough. That's your opinion. But this is where you get weird. If you look at your latest post in this thread, you know, the one you just wrote, and which I'm directly replying to now.

 

Now, suddenly, you're afraid the romance is not going to be good enough?

 

Well pick a bloody stance and stick with it. Have some consistency and some self-respect. If you don't want a romance, be quiet and respectful of others. We don't care if you like something else. I'm not making use of the hard core button for instance, or the feature that might erase your saves. Some people will use it, and I'm cool with that. I think it's nice they have optional things they can enjoy about the game that won't affect me in the slightest. However, you have serious insecurities because you don't believe in the arguement you're making. You just want to "win" the discussion... CLEARLY... And you'll say anything that comes to mind, even if you contradict yoruself. But make no mistake; there is no discussion. I can never convince certain people that they're wrong in liking a feature that has a certain chance of destroying their own save game. But that's a small, harmless feature. Who really gives a flying fudge what others do if it isn't harming them but instead makes them happy? Only an insecure tiny troll with too much time on his hands could get the things he wants, but then try to deny others something that he has no personal stake in whatsoever. Get some self-respect. Understand who you are and what you really want, and focus on that, and I might consider discussing something with you again.

Edited November 1, 2012 by -Zin-

[Death Machine Miyagi]

All I have to say is thank God that George Ziets is workign on the project instead of MCA doing the story on his own. The only good story MCA produced was Fallout New Vegas DLC (Torment doesn't count; half the lore was already made).

 

Heresy.

 

Yes. It's optional and attracts more customers than not having it.

Where does this "it's optional" sentiment come from? A good romance isn't "optional" in the sense you imply. If a romance were to be well written it would resonate in everything the character says and does in some way or another, no matter if you go down the actual romance path or not. His rejection or acceptance, his attitude, his outlook, his plight- these are all things that would be affected by having the character be involved in a romance with the PC. That's why romances are so hard to write well.

 

It's easy to write an optional romance. Writing one that is good is a completely different matter because everything about the character would have to tie in to the romance in some way as you cannot have this sort of path - even if it were just a path you can take or not take - without it being organically spawned from the nature and theme of the character in question.

 

Think you're creating a false dichotomy: either romance is done well and forced down your throat or romance is done poorly and is optional.

 

P:E is supposed to be a call-back to the Infinity Engine games. When....say, Aerie starts whining about her wings in Baldur's Gate 2, you know how to get her to shut up, avert the romance and start having her act like any other companion? You tell her to shut up. Romance over. What's so wrong with that?

[AgentOrange]

How about have the PC meet an NPC early on, have a relationship, and have the 'big bad' (or side big bad) murder them and use that as motivation for the chaarcter. 8SHRUG*

 

Why do both sides of thata rgument lack imagination? *sigh*

 

That's one of the most unimaginative plot points possible.

[Morality Games]

All games have cut content. KOTOR1 had an entire planet cut as well amongst other stuff. It's irrelevant. Whether one likes it or not, KTOOR2 was a finished project at release.

 

And hey if you want more they finally finished the restoration project mod.

 

I have so little time for gaming these days but I hope to get to it eventually and see how they did.

 

Amazing.

 

There were still some things I wish they had added though.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Morality Games

[Volourn]

"That's one of the most unimaginative plot points possible. "

 

Not as unimaginative as your post.

 

The point, however, is ntot he actual plot but what you do with it. ie. the writing and since the concensus is that Avellone is a superior writer than Volourn he in his awesomeness should be able to make it awesome.

 

Or do you doubt his skill? Why do you hate on MCA yet post on his company's forums? It is illogical to do so.

[Jasede]

Yes. It's optional and attracts more customers than not having it.

Where does this "it's optional" sentiment come from? A good romance isn't "optional" in the sense you imply. If a romance were to be well written it would resonate in everything the character says and does in some way or another, no matter if you go down the actual romance path or not. His rejection or acceptance, his attitude, his outlook, his plight- these are all things that would be affected by having the character be involved in a romance with the PC. That's why romances are so hard to write well.

 

It's easy to write an optional romance. Writing one that is good is a completely different matter because everything about the character would have to tie in to the romance in some way as you cannot have this sort of path - even if it were just a path you can take or not take - without it being organically spawned from the nature and theme of the character in question.

 

Where does this optional romance come from? From none other than CHRIS AVELLONE. (See link)

 

(http://forums.obsidi...aracterization/)

 

Paying attention the companions and exploring their personality is optional, and that's why there's a bloody adventurer's hall where you can make your own companions that won't have personalities, but have optimized stats for the 'hard core' people.

 

Also, what were you saying about romance a short while ago after reading Chris Avellone's latest interview?

 

 

"The best man who has ever lived on this beautiful planet Earth, clearly.

Suck it down, promancers.

 

Chris Avellone is going to make you his - (Can I write that? He'd write that, if he posted on forums. But if I get banned I can't heckle you guys anymore so I guess I'll play it safe.)" - Jasede

 

 

Alright. That's fair enough. That's your opinion. But this is where you get weird. If you look at your latest post in this thread, you know, the one you just wrote, and which I'm directly replying to now.

 

Now, suddenly, you're afraid the romance is not going to be good enough?

 

Well pick a bloody stance and stick with it. Have some consistency and some self-respect. If you don't want a romance, be quiet and respectful of others. We don't care if you like something else. I'm not making use of the hard core button for instance, or the feature that might erase your saves. Some people will use it, and I'm cool with that. I think it's nice they have optional things they can enjoy about the game that won't affect me in the slightest. However, you have serious insecurities because you don't believe in the arguement you're making. You just want to "win" the discussion... CLEARLY... And you'll say anything that comes to mind, even if you contradict yoruself. But make no mistake; there is no discussion. I can never convince certain people that they're wrong in liking a feature that has a certain chance of destroying their own save game. But that's a small, harmless feature. Who really gives a flying fudge what others do if it isn't harming them but instead makes them happy? Only an insecure tiny troll with too much time on his hands could get the things he wants, but then try to deny others something that he has no personal stake in whatsoever. Get some self-respect. Understand who you are and what you really want, and focus on that, and I might consider discussing something with you again.

 

You don't understand what I am trying to convey.

 

A romance that is well written is part of a theme, of a character's entire arc. The character can't be the same if he didn't have that romance option, else the romance is simply a shallow addition. You cannot add a romance to a character without altering the entire character. Avellone, much like me, looks for themes, for ideas, for arcs and stories. Romance isn't added because people ask for it or because it's something people ask for - it's only there if it makes sense for the theme, character and plot to be there. These "well written" romances are all tasteful and low-key - and as a matter of fact, incredibly rare, difficult to write and work-intensive because, as I believe I have tried to explain, the entire character, no, game has to be written around it to fit it or else it won't mesh with the feel, with the theme of the rest of the game. That's why it's better just to forget about romances and let Avellone just do his thing. He doesn't confine himself to the cage of romantic love. Instead he seems to prefer - much like Ziets, whose romances were very low key - themes such as the love to a god, to an idea, the pursuit of love that has been twisted and perverted and causes suffering. Love as a cause of war and death, love that shakes the laws of the cosmos, heroic, ideal love. This has nothing to do with the kind of romance people keep asking for and even if a game with these themes had a romance it wouldn't be what you were asking for - it'd be incredibly low-key and likely even unsatisfying and tragic because most often, the best stories are about loss and pursuits that have been doomed from the start.

 

Good romance: Deionarra - a function of the game itself, central to the entire idea of suffering and the power of love that persists even across death and the planes

Bad romance: Aeris - a shallow addition that adds nothing to the character

 

A good romance would have to have the entire game be written around it. That's not the kind of RPG I am looking but I can 100% tell you that if something like that were to be in the game it will sorely disappoint all those who may be asking for a Bioware romance that only serves to gratify the player rather than tell a story.

 

Maybe it's my limited English skills.

 

I am not trying to convince anyone. I am merely sharing my thoughts on the matter, even though it seems I am being misunderstood again and again.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jasede

[Azure79]

Please make single player K3.

[Jymm]

 

Also, count me among those now clamoring for a quest where you unravel a psychopathic cipher's plot to understand the deeper meaning of love by having to trawl through countless disney-love-zombies left in his/her wake.

 

I actually mostly approve of romance plots, but I think I prefer this plotline even _more_. :D

[AgentOrange]

"That's one of the most unimaginative plot points possible. "

 

Not as unimaginative as your post.

 

The point, however, is ntot he actual plot but what you do with it. ie. the writing and since the concensus is that Avellone is a superior writer than Volourn he in his awesomeness should be able to make it awesome.

 

Or do you doubt his skill? Why do you hate on MCA yet post on his company's forums? It is illogical to do so.

 

Stop being a poophead.

[Leferd]

MCA <3

[anubite]

People saying romances are "easy to ignore": This has not been the case as of late, notably, with Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect. In DAO, the ****ing climax of the script is "Shalt thou **** thy wretched lady so she may bore thy god-childe?" Yes, the climax is a decision whether to impregnate some selfish hag or leave it to some other oaf.

 

In Mass Effect, everything is so hypersexualized or hyper-cute-ti-tized (as in the case of Tali), you simply cannot ignore the sexual hyperbole. The camera zooms in on Miranda's ass whenever she's in frame. Mass Effect one even has this stupid romancy-climax thing shoved in your face, when you're asked to 'join with Liara' or whatever, and that such a ritual is considered practically to be sex with the Asari.

Edited November 1, 2012 by anubite

[Volourn]

"People saying romances are "easy to ignore": This has not been the case as of late, notably, with Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect. In DAO, the ****ing climax of the script is "Shalt thou **** thy wretched lady so she may bore thy god-childe?" Yes, the climax is a decision whether to impregnate some selfish hag or leave it to some other oaf.

 

In Mass Effect, everything is so hypersexualized or hyper-cute-ti-tized (as in the case of Tali), you simply cannot ignore the sexual hyperbole. The camera zooms in on Miranda's ass whenever she's in frame. Mass Effect one even has this stupid romancy-climax thing shoved in your face, when you're asked to 'join with Liara' or whatever, and that such a ritual is considered practically to be sex with the Asari"

 

You can ignore the roamnces in these games completely.

 

And, even if you choose to have sex with Morrigan to 'save yourself'; that isn't romance. Nor is it the climax of the game.

 

What does camera work have to do with romances?

 

Again, romances in these games can be avoided. Easily. Don't make stuff up. It's very rude.

[Alex Sherman]

After this interview and that last post by Jasede, there should be no more discussion about whether romances have a place in Project Eternity. Seriously, that's it. Nothing more needs to be said.

[Tamerlane]

After this interview and that last post by Jasede, there should be no more discussion about whether romances have a place in Project Eternity. Seriously, that's it. Nothing more needs to be said.

Should there have been in the first place, tovarishch?

[Elerond]

People saying romances are "easy to ignore": This has not been the case as of late, notably, with Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect. In DAO, the ****ing climax of the script is "Shalt thou **** thy wretched lady so she may bore thy god-childe?" Yes, the climax is a decision whether to impregnate some selfish hag or leave it to some other oaf.

 

 

Or not impregnate her and die hero's death as one should.

 

This ending is especially good when you have slaughterd all companions on the way except Morrigan and of course you have destroyed elves in forrest and city, drive dwarfs in civil war, let undead kill most of the Redcliff and killed jarl's son and wife. So you were absolute true hero

[SinoSamba]

I'm not sure why people are saying this is the final word on romances on PE. The tone of the answer is so so bitter that it has to be tongue in cheek. Plus Ziets is on board for PE and MCA just said he made romances work on NWN2, no reason why it will not work on PE.

 

I personally do not care if there will be romances or not, I enjoyed DA:O (with Alistair's romance being almost a must for female characters and a very cliche one at that) and FO:NV (unless I did something wrong there was nothing romanceable in it) equally.

[kenup]

People saying romances are "easy to ignore": This has not been the case as of late, notably, with Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect. In DAO, the ****ing climax of the script is "Shalt thou **** thy wretched lady so she may bore thy god-childe?" Yes, the climax is a decision whether to impregnate some selfish hag or leave it to some other oaf.

 

In Mass Effect, everything is so hypersexualized or hyper-cute-ti-tized (as in the case of Tali), you simply cannot ignore the sexual hyperbole.

I disagree that the ritual had anything to do with romance, though it still is a way for bioware to give an "end of the world" sex scene, even if you don't do it yourself, and the whole Wardens thing could be done differently/better. And tali, well, someone has to represent the bricksxbuckets fans.

Edited November 1, 2012 by kenup

[Bos_hybrid]

Interesting read, thanks for the link.

[Monte Carlo]

I'm not sure why people are saying this is the final word on romances on PE.

 

Denial ain't a river in Egypt.

[-Zin-]

****Deleted. Will write later when I got time***

Edited November 1, 2012 by -Zin-

[Monte Carlo]

- Zin - old bean is there any need for quote walls?

 

Please could you be a bit more discriminating with the quote function, some of us are using tablets and mobile devices.

 

Thanks in advance. Oh, and wrong thread.

[-Zin-]

****Deleted. Will write later when I got time.***

Edited November 1, 2012 by -Zin-

[BSoda]

I'm not sure why people are saying this is the final word on romances on PE. The tone of the answer is so so bitter that it has to be tongue in cheek. Plus Ziets is on board for PE and MCA just said he made romances work on NWN2, no reason why it will not work on PE.

 

I personally do not care if there will be romances or not, I enjoyed DA:O (with Alistair's romance being almost a must for female characters and a very cliche one at that) and FO:NV (unless I did something wrong there was nothing romanceable in it) equally.

This pretty much...and it's not "people" (as in a majority / consensus kind of reading) that say that. It's basically the anti-romance crowd latching on Avellone's interview because it validates their viewpoint and hopes for the game.

 

That Avellone isn't stemming the whole project himself and that he in fact didn't even make a statement about romances in PE is simply contrary to their standpoint.

[Cultist]

No romances? And nothing of value was lost!