David Attenborough disappointed with and sick of the USA's head in the sand attitude to global warming

[Malcador]

Wow who knew Gifted1 could say so much with that one post. Not that irrelevant, does at least have a small affect on alternatives too. But, oh well, gotta snark.

[Gfted1]

Wow who knew Gifted1 could say so much with that one post. Not that irrelevant, does at least have a small affect on alternatives too. But, oh well, gotta snark.

I say a lot with a little.

 

 

US shale oil supply shock rocks global power balance.

 

Booyah.

I agree, small-minded nationalism is super relevant to the topic. "Now we can ignore a problem which the scientific community has reached a near-complete consensus on for another 50+ years!"

 

 

Even  if somehow the US stopped being reliant on the Mideast for energy, they'd still be supplying China and Japan.

 

You rely on both China and Japan for production and capital flows. Just like Europe, Africa, and the rest of Austral/Asia do. So by extension you'll still have to watch the Mideast like a hawk.

 

I mean this in a kind way, but you chaps really have to stop pretending the rest of the World is going to go away.

Not to mention the fact that the US' primary trade relationship is with China, a country powered overwhelmingly by coal, a country whose rampant, if unequal, economic growth is leading to an emulation of capitalist materialism, further exacerbating the situation.

 

The petty nationalism expressed by certain individuals is irrelevant to the issue of the thread. Maybe a red herring, maybe some kind of ill-thought "argument" that "If we have more oil, then it logically follows that climate change is a conspiracy by Big Science to [insert right-wing conspiracy theory here]! Also stop begging us to play world police, arabs! The US has never interfered with the internal politics and sovereignty of any foreign country, especially in the middle east, to further its own political goals and the economic goals of its most powerful individuals and corporations!"

 

All that red faced arm waving is actually kind of true. Im very happy my country will have enough natural resources to eventually stop importing oil and become an exporter. Makes for more countries under our sphere of influence too. I also don't give a rats ass about global warming. The Earth will be perfectly suitable for life during mine and my daughters lifetime and beyond that the whole place can go to Planet of the Apes for all I care. But I don't want to let you down so I will also disclose that Im always down for a good invasion to take what we need. Maybe we can invade Venezuela and build a humongous underwater pipeline to Japan?

[Tsuga C]

To them I say: grow up, educate yourselves, or **** off.

Take your own advice, Chicken Little. Give Steve Goreham a listen and wise up, already.

 

And read on if you dare.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Tsuga C

[Wrath of Dagon]

You rely on both China and Japan for production and capital flows.

Nonsense, we can print our own money just fine.

 

Btw, this has been the coldest spring on record. I know, I know, it's weather when it's unusually cold, it's only climate when it's unusually hot or a natural disaster happens.

[Berenice]

I don't care if you believe in climate change or not, you have to agree that with how wasteful the people on this planet are, if climate change isn't a reality now it will be soon enough. Humans are a disgustingly wasteful race, we consume and toss away things like they are created and destroyed in some magic hole that has no consequence or repercussions. It's almost with a primitive kind of apathy or ignorance how most of us regard the planet. The ignorance is at least somewhat understandable, it's the arrogance of how a lot of people just don't care that I just don't understand. So you don't care what happens to the planet when you're gone, it must be nice to be completely oblivious to the welfare of anything but yourself. All a bunch of Ciphers taking the steak over the reality of a degrading world. 

[Walsingham]

Well, Berenice, welcome to the forums.

 

Can't say I agree. You may find it less annoying to look at the attitude differently.

 

A planetary ecosystem is a Bloody Big Thing. By which I mean that while I don't doubt we could **** it up, the odds of doing so by carrying on as we are, are pretty slim. And even if we did the consequences would be reversible by virtue of the damage we'd do to ourselves in the process.

 

Personally I have enough to worry about with religious genocide, nuclear war, and meteorite strikes without worrying about climate change. Indeed, the solutions to most of the former directly contradict the latter.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If renewable energy(which is generally clean energy) is cheaper than fossil fuels and is reasonably effective, then by all means invest in it heavily. I wouldn't mind letting my car run off a battery powered by sunlight rather than forking over a ridiculous amount of money to fill up my gas tank.

[Berenice]

Well, Berenice, welcome to the forums.

 

Can't say I agree. You may find it less annoying to look at the attitude differently.

 

A planetary ecosystem is a Bloody Big Thing. By which I mean that while I don't doubt we could **** it up, the odds of doing so by carrying on as we are, are pretty slim. And even if we did the consequences would be reversible by virtue of the damage we'd do to ourselves in the process.

 

Personally I have enough to worry about with religious genocide, nuclear war, and meteorite strikes without worrying about climate change. Indeed, the solutions to most of the former directly contradict the latter.

 

So you're telling me you don't think people have any effect on the ecosystem because, apparently, it's too big? I don't doubt that it is a big thing, but we are consuming far more than what we put back. If the world agreed with you, then why are so many countries taking action to revert or stabilize climate change?

 

Even so, why not at least try to turn things around while it's still possible to (since you said we don't have much effect on ecosystems as we are) we eventually will, wont we? Why not try to prevent it then, rather than trying to fix it. My entire point here is that people do (and if not, will) have a huge effect on ecosystems and the planet's welfare, why not take steps to reverse or even prevent it from getting worse by using renewable sources of energy, and taking steps toward being more self-sustaining. It really couldn't hurt, but apparently a lot of people are just morally opposed to the idea, like people who wont buy eco-friendly items for the simple reason that they say "eco-friendly". 

[Monte Carlo]

I don't care if you believe in climate change or not, you have to agree that with how wasteful the people on this planet are, if climate change isn't a reality now it will be soon enough. Humans are a disgustingly wasteful race, we consume and toss away things like they are created and destroyed in some magic hole that has no consequence or repercussions. It's almost with a primitive kind of apathy or ignorance how most of us regard the planet. The ignorance is at least somewhat understandable, it's the arrogance of how a lot of people just don't care that I just don't understand. So you don't care what happens to the planet when you're gone, it must be nice to be completely oblivious to the welfare of anything but yourself. All a bunch of Ciphers taking the steak over the reality of a degrading world. 

 

1. No I don't believe in it, nor do I want to live in a tent. Not do I despise humanity in the way so many Malthusian Greens do.

 

2. I wish I was still your age.

 

3. That's it.

[WDeranged]

I don't care if you believe in climate change or not, you have to agree that with how wasteful the people on this planet are, if climate change isn't a reality now it will be soon enough. Humans are a disgustingly wasteful race, we consume and toss away things like they are created and destroyed in some magic hole that has no consequence or repercussions. It's almost with a primitive kind of apathy or ignorance how most of us regard the planet. The ignorance is at least somewhat understandable, it's the arrogance of how a lot of people just don't care that I just don't understand. So you don't care what happens to the planet when you're gone, it must be nice to be completely oblivious to the welfare of anything but yourself. All a bunch of Ciphers taking the steak over the reality of a degrading world. 

 

Believing in climate change has a slightly Orwellian ring, do you believe in Newtonian physics or quantum theory?  Regardless of my own beliefs, your tone is the exact reason the majority of us will never go along with your agenda, you call us disgustingly wasteful primitives and preach from your green (on red) pulpit about the one true path.  Humanity is no where near perfect but I see more beauty in the world than horror, free will and sanity should always trump emotionally manipulative agendas.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Believing in climate change has a slightly Orwellian ring, do you believe in Newtonian physics or quantum theory?  Regardless of my own beliefs, your tone is the exact reason the majority of us will never go along with your agenda, you call us disgustingly wasteful primitives and preach from your green (on red) pulpit about the one true path.  Humanity is no where near perfect but I see more beauty in the world than horror, free will and sanity should always trump emotionally manipulative agendas.

To be fair, quantum theory is just as unproven as climate change, seeing as both are designated the title of "theory". However, in the scientific community, that is a pretty big title, which means that while they can't prove it, it is heavily supported by evidence and has been peer reviewed thoroughly.

 

That said, the demands and arguments of green extremists(greentremists?) are as unrealistic and condescending as most extreme religious groups. Taking a softer stance, like encouraging more recycling and energy conservation by tweaking one's lifestyle is hardly the same as telling people to forsake technology and live without any of the comforts that people have grown accustomed to, and more realistic to boot.

[WDeranged]

To be fair, quantum theory is just as unproven as climate change, seeing as both are designated the title of "theory". However, in the scientific community, that is a pretty big title, which means that while they can't prove it, it is heavily supported by evidence and has been peer reviewed thoroughly.

 

That's a point I tried (possibly failed) to make, the issue of belief, believing in a scientific field is actually quite unscientific and it always irks me that environmentalists phrase it that way.

 

I can't agree more about the softer approach, I do think we need to clean up our act but scaring the living hell out of children and trying to enforce lifestyle changes through punitive measures just feels dirty, not to mention profitable for those doing the punishing.

[Rostere]

 

Believing in climate change has a slightly Orwellian ring, do you believe in Newtonian physics or quantum theory?  Regardless of my own beliefs, your tone is the exact reason the majority of us will never go along with your agenda, you call us disgustingly wasteful primitives and preach from your green (on red) pulpit about the one true path.  Humanity is no where near perfect but I see more beauty in the world than horror, free will and sanity should always trump emotionally manipulative agendas.

To be fair, quantum theory is just as unproven as climate change, seeing as both are designated the title of "theory". However, in the scientific community, that is a pretty big title, which means that while they can't prove it, it is heavily supported by evidence and has been peer reviewed thoroughly.

 

Quantum theory is not unproven. It is just as proven as Newtonian gravity, or any other old theory (if you're interested in what that means you can read up on how physics is "proven"). There are a lot of things in quantum physics open to further/different interpretation though.

[JFSOCC]

So I guess all the extinctions we're having because of poaching, overfishing, habitat destruction are all fake.

the desertification of large parts of the earth is just an illusion.

glaciers which have been extant for millennia which have halved in size in the last 50 years are just a freak phenomenon no doubt.

And the world population of humans hasn't dramatically tripled in the last 50 years, increasing the number of consumers of fossil fuel. (for refrigeration, for transport, for fertilisation, for packaging, for electricity, for heating homes or air-conditioning)

 

"I don't believe in global warming" disqualifies you as an intelligent human being, it's real, there is scientific consensus on it, and we're causing it. It's measurable and study after study adds to the body of evidence. We shouldn't be having this discussion. and the fact that so many of the forumites are still in the climate deniers camp scares me. I sincerely hope some of you are just trolling, because otherwise I can only say that you are colossal idiots.

 

Especially you gfted1. I can't believe that attitude of "not my problem, it won't affect me"

First of all, it will, because climate change is NOW, not in the future. You are being affected now by extreme weather like Katrina, like the frosty spring the US has been having for the last few years. like the drought which destroyed the corn harvest last year, like the massive wildfires every year in the US (like in California) like the drought Russia suffered in 2011 which ruined 70% of the wheat harvest.

I name a few but really the list goes on and on.

 

And these things affect society. scarcity like you get from failed harvests increases poverty, which is an indirect cause of things like the Arab Spring. Food riots are already happening in the world, but yes, these things don;t affect everyone on earth so they're easily ignored "far from my bed"

 

Climate change is already adversely affecting you.

 

As for the topic of shale gas: It's only worthwhile to extract shale gas while fuel prices are high, because it's a terribly energy inefficient process, it takes a barrel to get 2 barrels, and that's just early on, after a while it becomes harder.

on top of that shale deposit yields are fundamentally impossible to predict, making the article shown completely pointless.

So aside from the environmental concerns, it's not a wise investment for your long term economy.

 

I think there is a video which everyone could enjoy, regardless of what side of the debate you are on, and I think it's very interesting.

It's a lecture by a mathematician named Albert Bartlett, you may have heard of him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umFnrvcS6AQ

If you think it's long: try it for a few minutes, I'm sure you'll keep watching.

 

But you guys have your heads stuck up your collective asses so far because you don't WANT it to be true. Denying it is easier than doing something about it. Now if that isn't the ultimate appeal to ignorance I don't know what is.

Of course Tsuga C. is in the climate deniers camp, he's a forester, right? his job security is based on it being able to continue forever and ever and ever. Which might be in question if climate change is real. I can understand that this makes you uncomfortable. But that doesn't stop it from being true.

 

You guys honest to god make me so angry, because you are the problem. You are the ones who keep society from acting. You all share in the responsibility for this planet's future (including you Gftd1) and you're behaving most shamefully. I find it very upsetting to keep being confronted with this level of ignorance, because it's killing our world. And I mean that without hyperbole.

 

Ask yourself two questions:

What kind planet would I like to live on?

What's your problem with renewables?

 

I believe ethical persons asks themselves the uncomfortable questions as well as the more pleasant and esoteric ones.

 

A planetary ecosystem is a Bloody Big Thing. By which I mean that while I don't doubt we could **** it up, the odds of doing so by carrying on as we are, are pretty slim. And even if we did the consequences would be reversible by virtue of the damage we'd do to ourselves in the process.

1. We are ****ing it up, we have ****ed it up, and we're continuing too **** it up

2. We don;t actually know if the consequences are reversible, but certainly it's unlikely you'll see extinct animals return, don't you agree?

3. The world took 21 million years to recover it's level of biodiversity after the last great extinction event. in 100 million years our planet will be too hot to survive on (because of the expanding sun)

Do you think in that time another intelligent species will evolve capable of interstellar travel? or are you fine with consigning life on earth to its inevitable doom.

Edited May 16, 2013 by JFSOCC

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Quantum theory is not unproven. It is just as proven as Newtonian gravity, or any other old theory (if you're interested in what that means you can read up on how physics is "proven"). There are a lot of things in quantum physics open to further/different interpretation though.

Quantum Theory is unproven, or else it would be referred to as Quantum Law. It is impossible to prove it, the same applies with evolution. However, both have such evidence behind them that they are accepted as fact by the scientific community.

[Gfted1]

Especially you gfted1. I can't believe that attitude of "not my problem, it won't affect me"

First of all, it will, because climate change is NOW, not in the future. You are being affected now by extreme weather like Katrina, like the frosty spring the US has been having for the last few years. like the drought which destroyed the corn harvest last year, like the massive wildfires every year in the US (like in California) like the drought Russia suffered in 2011 which ruined 70% of the wheat harvest.

I name a few but really the list goes on and on.

 

And these things affect society. scarcity like you get from failed harvests increases poverty, which is an indirect cause of things like the Arab Spring. Food riots are already happening in the world, but yes, these things don;t affect everyone on earth so they're easily ignored "far from my bed"

 

Climate change is already adversely affecting you.

Look, this will no doubt cause bitter tears but I really dont care about things that are beyond my control and no, I dont directly care about some anonymous hardships some strangers may suffer. The Earth will be perfectly habitable for my family and my families next generation and beyond that, nothing I can do about it.

[JFSOCC]

apathy is death

 

But by all means, wallow in your ignorance, wear it like a shield. We'll see how well it shields you and your family.

Edited May 16, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Malcador]

apathy is death

 

But by all means, wallow in your ignorance, wear it like a shield. We'll see how well it shields you and your family.

Ahh smugness, heh. The alternative's not likely to protect him that much either, really.

[Wrath of Dagon]

As for the topic of shale gas: It's only worthwhile to extract shale gas while fuel prices are high, because it's a terribly energy inefficient process, it takes a barrel to get 2 barrels, and that's just early on, after a while it becomes harder.

What's your source on this?, doesn't sound right, you are talking about hydraulic fracturing? Actually gas prices are quite low right now, mostly because of fracking.

 

Edit: Btw, the peak oil theory in your video has long been discredited, because it doesn't take shale oil into account. Also US is using less oil, not more, there's no doubling like that guy is saying.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Wrath of Dagon

[Monte Carlo]

Warmism is an -ism like any other, and it's adherents tend to become wild-eyed loons.

 

Why else do you think that the Left have taken to it with such gusto?

[Walsingham]

We were talking about this last night over a very pleasant meal. I conceded a point which may be interesting.

 

My point is that the warmists assert we have to take radical action or we're apocalypse bound. Since I don't believe radical action is politically possible without a One World State, and I don't want a One World State then I am left with one conclusion: we're going to take expensive but ineffective action.

 

I don't want to take ineffective action at great expense.

[pmp10]

What's your problem with renewables?

Let me answer that as the rest of people here seems to have decided to do nothing first and then find justification.

I simply can't afford to pay for them.

Take it from someone who shovels his own coal not to freeze in winter - renewables are tremendously expensive in my part of the world and cannot be relied upon when energy demand is greatest.

 

The problem with fighting global warming is that there are no realistic responses that my society could bear let alone be convinced to.

I'm not even drastically opposed to lowering my living standard but you need to understand that local economy is bad enough as it is.

With any serious action taken I would quickly face poverty and become a drain on society. 

And I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

[Gfted1]

apathy is death

 

But by all means, wallow in your ignorance, wear it like a shield. We'll see how well it shields you and your family.

 

Rofl, you don't even know what to whine about. If you're going to run and panicking at least have the good form to do it about things that probably will have an impact in your lifetime, like the impending collapse of the oceans ecosystems or the catastrophic losses of bee colonies.

[JFSOCC]

Warmism is an -ism like any other, and it's adherents tend to become wild-eyed loons.

 

Why else do you think that the Right have taken to it with such gusto?

fixed

[JFSOCC]

 

apathy is death

 

But by all means, wallow in your ignorance, wear it like a shield. We'll see how well it shields you and your family.

 

Rofl, you don't even know what to whine about. If you're going to run and panicking at least have the good form to do it about things that probably will have an impact in your lifetime, like the impending collapse of the oceans ecosystems or the catastrophic losses of bee colonies.

 

All these things are having an impact now, but you're right, the collapse of the oceans ecosystems, because we are overfishing, because coral reefs are bleaching because of global warming, reefs are a major producer of the earths oxygen, by the way. and the bees we are killing due to the use of pesticides and the amount of mono-culture we have out there, destroying entire habitats for large scale mono-agriculture.

Thank you for helping me make my point. Besides I told you that I was only naming a smattering of the issues we're facing because of man made climate change, you are correct, there is a **** load more we are responsible for.