About humans..

[HansKrSG]

Humans shouldn't neccesarily be balanced with the other races, but some bonuses based on their strengths would be nice. In fantasy settings, the humans are usually the culturally most diverse race. They have dozens of cultures, and can more often break the mold than other races, traditionally speaking.

 

Of course, the humans in the world Obsidian is making, might be different. If they are going for the usual, give humans bonuses on ease of multiclassing or otherwise doing things that goes outside his own cultural bounds, but don't give them an arbitrary bonus to balance them with other races. Balancing removes flavour in my opinion.

[morrow1nd]

man is the measure of all things

...meaning we are point zero on the scale to measure advantages and disadvantages in this particular context.

Would feel kind of forced if humans had any advantages but quick learning or something like that.

 

game: humans have +1 strength.

random human: Well I don't feel very strong...

game: humans have +1 dexterity.

random human: Actually I'm kind of clumsy...

game: humans have +1 intelligence.

random human: Deeerrrp

game: humans learn rather fast.

random human: Uhm well we better DO, since we don't live as long as other races.

 

 

I actually didn't mind 4E's solution of a +2 to any attribute you like.

 

Humans as a more sandbox race is an interesting idea, get less overall bonuses than other races but get to put them anywhere you like etc

 

I've never meant the ability score bonuses. Something that proves their ongoing survival and domination of the world. Such as soul resistance or a bonus based on their classes. How come humans good at whatever they are doing?

 

 

Humans shouldn't neccesarily be balanced with the other races, but some bonuses based on their strengths would be nice. In fantasy settings, the humans are usually the culturally most diverse race. They have dozens of cultures, and can more often break the mold than other races, traditionally speaking.

 

Of course, the humans in the world Obsidian is making, might be different. If they are going for the usual, give humans bonuses on ease of multiclassing or otherwise doing things that goes outside his own cultural bounds, but don't give them an arbitrary bonus to balance them with other races. Balancing removes flavour in my opinion.

 

Well i think you missed what i mean. It was never about balancing, Just something to approve their success instead of being the norm race like other games..

Edited October 21, 2012 by morrow1nd

[HansKrSG]

Well i think you missed what i mean. It was never about balancing, Just something to approve their success instead of being the norm race like other games..

 

Though it was your topic and all, I didn't really answer to your post, just my own idea about the subject you launched. So I didn't misunderstand you or try to refute your post, in how you describe your view, I think we are agreeing.

[Fimbul]

I've never meant the ability score bonuses. Something that proves their ongoing survival and domination of the world. Such as soul resistance or a bonus based on their classes. How come humans good at whatever they are doing?

 

Quick understanding, cultural diversity, creativity and flexibility are the common traits associated with humans. They usually manifest in additional points or more freedom during character creation. Imho there's nothing to improve here.

[Nixl]

I actually didn't mind 4E's solution of a +2 to any attribute you like.

 

Humans as a more sandbox race is an interesting idea, get less overall bonuses than other races but get to put them anywhere you like etc

 

I like this idea. Humans do not get bonuses so to speak, but rather players get more freedom to place bonuses and/or skills.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Nixl

[Farbautisonn]

I personally feel that anything beyond 2, editon sucks. But I know Im an old timer and a minority. :D

[Rosveen]

I don't want generic humans. Jack-of-all-trades mentality bores me to death. This is a fantasy world, humans don't have to be a carbon copy of our race - they can be unique and have a specialization. I'd like them to have bonuses and penalties the way other races do.

[Leird]

Well you could do it in the same style as Pathfinder does it. Humans get one extra skill point, one extra feat and +2 on a stat of their choice. (Not that it's going to be pathfinder rules ofcourse, it was just the general idea about giving humans a bonus)

[Gurkog]

Humans could be faster learners and more adaptive, but are also more volatile and irrational. A good way to balance humans and explain why other species/sub-species are annoyed by them.

[romka-unknown]

Nor any bonuses to people. Why? This imbalance. Strictly based on D & D of the human race.

 

Humans should get some bonuses too based on their classes. They are the survivors!

Others, too, survived

[Bokob]

Like in mot RPG i've played, I'm probably going to play a human because they are easier to identify to, especially in a fantastic universe I won't be familiar with on game launch. I would hope that they are well balanced with other species.

 

Also, I disagree that humans have to be the base. In fact, one cool thing about us, is that we are built for extreme physical resistance. Here is an example: We sweat during physical intense physical exercise, this is our way to regulate our body temperature and it allows us to regulate our body temperature while moving, this allows us to run longer distances then other animals who controls body temperatures but breathing (like dogs and cats for example). Those animals can run faster then us but never as long then us (if you are in good physical shape that is). This fact is a serious advantage in a warm dry environment but can prove lethal in cold environment and useless in a very humid environment. SO technically, humans are better at physical resistance in most environment found on earth.

 

so the start point should always be a base which offers no bonus of defects like, how easy it is for me to survive in environment A and why. Lets take "darkvison" for an example. We consider this an advantage because we can't see in the dark, but in the case were they've adapted to see only in the dark, we both can see 50% of the time on the surface, meaning that in reality, we're pretty much equals. If the creature that can see in the dark only lives underground, then yes, it would have an advantage but that creature would live in an environment where everybody else can do the same, cancelling this advantage most of the time because creature who needs light won't be in competing with those who don't like light 99% of the time.

 

TDLR: If a specie really had a significant advantage over the other that is not balanced out by anything, eventually, one will completely dominate the other, either by predation or by breeding them out (in the case of subspecies). That's why I think, logically, all existing species should be equivalent to another and therefore, human should also have bonus.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Bokob

[Halric]

In relation to D&D Specific rules:

I've always thought that Humans are not a baseline, they are not bland either. They are a blank slate for players who didn't want their archetype dictated by the bonus/penality spread that the other races recieved. It was referenced that the longer lived races were not as talented in areas outside their cultural norms. Dwarves rarely became powerful wizards for instance. (I'm not saying it wasn't possible, but it was rare) Whereas the shorter lived races, namely humans, were so adept at so many different areas of expertise.

 

3e reflected this by giving other races a +2 in a predetermined stat, and -2 in a predetermined stat, but humans no stat adjustments. This creates the impression they are the "baseline" but 3e was more about classes/multiclasses to indicate flexibility and talent. So humans were able to choose any class as a favoured class allowing them to excel as a mutl-classed character far easier than other races. (and of course the +4 skill points and extra feats)

 

4e gives +2 to two predetermined stats for other races, but only one +2 increase to humans but it can be placed in any stat. Also allowed for the player to choose a bonus At-will power, skill, and offered a +1 bonus to defenses across the board.

 

To me, this isn't a baseline, it's an option that allows more flexibility. That being said, this is Obsidian's world and their rules so I'm sure that every racial choice will have it's own benefits and drawbacks. I have confidence that if humans are involved they were either be that "blank slate" alternative or have their own special adjustments the same as the other races.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Halric

[Umberlin]

That bonus feat, and four extra skillpoints (plus an additional one skill point every level beyond creation), for being a Human at creation, hardly felt baseline to me.

 

"four extra skill points !" might be useful when playing with a DM.. (:

 

Heh. Still an extra feat, four extra skill points at creation 'and' one extra skill point with every level gained actually adds up to a lot. Over 20 levels that's quite a bit. Little things add up.

[metiman]

Humans shouldn't be in the game at all. Humans are just so boring and unimaginative.

[Infinitron]

How about human subraces, like the Deep Imaskari in FR?

[Uszi]

 

 

hmm may be something like soul resistance ?

 

Seems like that would have some pretty interesting reprecussions, thematically within the game... given how the whole soul magic thing is supposed to work.

[Gyor]

One way to handle this is that human traits are entirely dicated by subrace. In fact in DnD 5e stat bonus comes from subrace not race in none humans and this could something Eternity choices to do.

 

Or repersent human will and tenacity, the human spirit by having a stamina bonus or stamina that regenerates faster.

 

Its really hard to say because we don't know anything about what the other races get. We don't know about stat bonus or penalties or if they'll have any, what kind of traits they'll have, or how far Elve and,Dwarves will deviate from normal.

 

So far a bonus to hearing in Elves and a bigger bonus to hearing for Orlan is a safe bet with thier big fur covered ears. Aumaua will probably get a bonus to sailing and strength or melee damage. Not sure about Dwarves now that mountains aren't the basic homeland for them. Longievity isn't as meaningful in game mechanic, its fluff. We don't even know if they have beards, Sagani doesn't. We know the Godlike have physical manifestations of divine imfluence, but nothing else.

[JFSOCC]

I've more than once hurt my own character creation by choosing aesthetics over traits. Why should an Elf not be as fit to be a beserker as an Orc? because Orcs get more strength, while elves get a penalty to strength and a bonus to dexterity?

 

I've always seen this happen in MMO's where certain builds just don't exist, because they aren't efficient. If you're going to be a fire elementalist, and there is a race that gives you +10% fire damage, that doesn't present a real choice.

Racial traits narrow down choices in this manner, because if you want to play a certain way, you're required to limit your choice to what allows you to play like that.

So I hope that if the different races are significantly different, they differ in a way which doesn't hinder your choice like that.

perhaps a human cleric may play differently from a dwarven one, but either option should be equally viable.

[Wighnut]

As seen in more recent RPGs humans should have some attribute or perk bonuses.

[zimcub]

I think the reason humans don't get any bonuses in most games is because they are the building blocks of other races to be balanced around. Other races get advantages and disadvantaged while using the humans as a base. I know that wasn't really the case in bg1-2 but that game was hardly balanced anywhere.

[Fimbul]

Humans shouldn't be in the game at all. Humans are just so boring and unimaginative.

Funny... I'd rather it be the other way around. I like to choose of different 'cultures' of humans rather than 'races'.

In my opinion elves and dwarfs are boring because they are just extremes on both sides of the human spectrum - the agile and the sturdy.

It seems unimaginative to me to choose extremes.

... let's have it the traditional way and have them coexist... serves us both!

[JFSOCC]

You can have the full spectrum of personalities with just humans.

That's one thing I've hated about some fantasy fiction, Elves and Vulcans are not the noble race we could one day be, Gnomes or Ferengi are not the trader race, and Orcs and Klingons are not noble warriors.

 

that's as one-dimensional as it gets. You should have the full spectrum of personalities and they shouldn't be dependent on race.

[Qumi]

I suggest checking Pathfinder idea on human stats:

 

Standard Racial Traits

• Ability Score Racial Traits: Human characters gain a +2 racial bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
  
• Size: Humans are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
  
• Base Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
  
• Languages: Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
  

Feat and Skill Racial Traits

• Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
  
• Skills: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
  

Alternate Racial Traits

 

The following alternate racial traits may be selected in place of one or more of the standard racial traits above. Consult your GM before selecting any of these new options.

• Adoptive Parentage Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd....s#TOC-Humanoid" style="color: rgb(0, 57, 101) !important; ">humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
  
• Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
  
• Eye for Talent Humans have great intuition for hidden potential. They gain a +2 racial bonus onSense Motive checks. In addition, when they acquire an animal companion, bonded mount,cohort, or familiar, that creature gains a +2 bonus to one ability score of the character's choice. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
  
• Focused Study All humans are skillful, but some, rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
  
• Heart of the Fields Humans born in rural areas are used to hard labor. They gain a racial bonus equal to half their character level to any one Craft or Profession skill, and once per day they may ignore an effect that would cause them to becomefatigued or exhausted. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Mountains Humans born in the mountains are skilled at negotiating heights and precipices. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Climb checks and Acrobatics checks to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground. Furthermore, they are considered acclimated to the effects of high altitude. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Sea Humans born near the sea are always drawn to it. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Profession (sailor) and Swimchecks, and these are always class skills for them. They can hold their breath twice as long as normal, and spellcasters gain a +4racial bonus on concentration checks when attempting to cast spells underwater. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Slums Humans who eke out a life in a city's teeming slums must be quick and clever. They gain a +2 racial bonuson Sleight of Hand and Stealth checks, and a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks in urban and underground settings. In addition, they may roll twice when saving against disease, taking the better roll. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Snows Humans born in chilly climes treat cold climates as one category less severe. They gain a +2 racial bonus onFortitude saving throws against the effects of cold climates, on any check or saving throw to avoid slipping and falling, and toCMD against trip combat maneuvers. This bonus applies on Acrobatics and Climb checks made in slippery conditions. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Streets Humans from bustling cities are skilled with crowds. They gain a +1 racial bonus on Reflex saves and a +1dodge bonus to Armor Class when adjacent to at least two other allies. Crowds do not count as difficult terrain for them. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Sun Humans born in tropical climates treat hot climates as one category less severe. They also gain a +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saving throws against the effects of a hot climate, as well as against the poison and distraction ability ofswarms and vermin. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heart of the Wilderness Humans raised in the wild learn the hard way that only the strong survive. They gain a racial bonusequal to half their character level on Survival checks. They also gain a +5 racial bonus on Constitution checks to stabilize whendying and add half their character level to their Constitution score when determining the negative hit point total necessary to kill them. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  
• Heroic Some humans are born heroes. In campaigns that use the optional hero point system, each time these humans gain a level, they gain 2 hero points instead of 1. If they take the Blood of Heroes feat, they gain 3 hero points each level instead of 2. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
  
• Mixed Heritage Often human civilization is defined by more than one characteristic. A human with this trait may select a second “Heart of the” racial trait. This replaces the bonus feat racial trait.
  
• Silver Tongued Human are often adept at subtle manipulation and putting even sworn foes at ease. Humans with this trait gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can shift up to three steps up rather than just two. This racial trait replaces skilled.
  

Edited October 22, 2012 by Qumi

[Hellfell]

Personally, the best possible thing that can ever happen to an RPG game is to exclude Humans from it! This race is so boring and the image of "the youngest and expansive race that became the most numerous and now every other race has to live with them" rapidly gets old. Im yet to see an RPG without those pesky individuals

[Arhiippa]

Considering that there will be subraces for every race, it would be kind of weird for those subraces to all have the same stats, so I'm guessing there will be human subraces with some bonuses and maybe one baseline vanilla subrace.