Talking about graphics = missing the point?

[Jasede]

To put it simply, art design is extremely important in a project like this; graphics are secondary.

[DocDoomII]

Some of the illustrations in those were quite good, you graphics whore

And yet I'm not so much of a graphics whore since recently I played:

American McGee's Alice

God of War

God of War II

God of War: Chains of Olympus

God of War: Ghost of Sparta

Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time

Prince of Persia: Warrior Withing

Prototype

 

and I'm Playing Divine Divinity now (the camera angle is really awful).

Houston, we're getting some weird readings here, it seems to be saying you've missed evdk's joke.

No no, I got the joke. But I really am a graphics whore only that from time to time I can bear some crappy graphics here and there (usually for the sake of ps3 trophies

Or if the game is really cool.

[Sensuki]

KotOR 2 camera angles? o_O

Yes. Especially in key conversations they were chosen very carefully. A pivotal moment is this scene, for instance:

http://video.google....729895149183484

 

Sure, but ...

 

There won't be any cutscenes in this game, and the camera will be locked

[Jasede]

That's not the point. The point is to make conscious artistic design in the choices of every in-game element to harbor a constant atmosphere/mood that maintains the integrity of the world. Planescape: Torment or Dark Souls would be good examples.

[Pipyui]

Yep, graphics whore over here too. However good art design is also perfectly acceptable, in its place.

I want PE to look gorgeous, as does everbody. It's why PE's pledges jumped with the screenshot.

One thing I'm hoping for though, is that the 2D background can be "layered" so that elements of it can move with the panning camera. Of course, if a mostly static image fits the game better, I'm all for that too. Style above all else, I guess.

[UncleBourbon]

Bik movies and such are possible, as far as I know. I think implementing them for major character/plot events might add a layer many of the older IE games lacked, probably for technical reasons.

[Sensuki]

That's not the point. The point is to make conscious artistic design in the choices of every in-game element to harbor a constant atmosphere/mood that maintains the integrity of the world. Planescape: Torment or Dark Souls would be good examples.

 

Swing and a miss

 

One weird aspect I enjoyed ( I really do not know if it was an intentional design decision ) is that the levels and areas in KotOR 2 felt ... void of life. Desolate. Like deliberately under-designed.

 

I really enjoyed that atmosphere.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Sensuki

[Sannom]

We handed in our "I care about graphics" sometime when we funded a kickstarter for an isometric RPG, so shouldn't we be focusing on the important bits like gameplay mechanics and storylines instead?

 

You can't really say that. We funded a Infinity Engine-inspired game, and those games had some really nice graphics in some areas, the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series had very good background decors, and Planescape : Torment had custom models for all companions, very flashy spell effects, and it sacrificied combat gameplay and a proved-and-true user interface for all of this.

[Glabrezu]

How is talking about breastplates a graphical quality discussion? It's more about immersion, I believe. And it has also been said that some people seem to be confusing graphics with design.

[Jasede]

That's not the point. The point is to make conscious artistic design in the choices of every in-game element to harbor a constant atmosphere/mood that maintains the integrity of the world. Planescape: Torment or Dark Souls would be good examples.

 

Swing and a miss

 

One weird aspect I enjoyed ( I really do not know if it was an intentional design decision ) is that the levels and areas in KotOR 2 felt ... void of life. Desolate. Like deliberately under-designed.

 

I really enjoyed that atmosphere.

Right! Just like things in Torment felt bizarre or tragic or circuitous and epic (in the true sense of the word, not the internet sense) in MotB. It's important that areas, dialogue - everything - reflects the mood and theme of the game. That's why I honestly believe this game is in good hands and can't wait until it's out!

Edited October 20, 2012 by Jasede

[Freshock]

I think there's a difference between graphics and design. When people talk about boob plates/pauldrons and such they are talking about design. I wouldn't want to throw away that part of the game, but I'm not demanding good graphics - such as high quality tree's with ultimate shadow effects.

[John Lemon]

I want AWESUM spell effects though.

 

Like Torment.

Bleh. PST spells were more like Final Fantasy. Took too long to cast, so it wore its' welcome out very quickly.

How is talking about breastplates a graphical quality discussion? It's more about immersion, I believe. And it has also been said that some people seem to be confusing graphics with design.

I meant more the quibbling over negligible little bits of things you won't see clearly. Surely there are more important things to talk about that how much bling a weapon brings to bear when equipped on the character or the use of boobplate (Which we've already seen will not be included)?

[Pshaw]

Graphics do matter to an extent. We're still looking for a modern game even if it's still a low budget one. As much as I love the BG series I do expect a bit more customization for the character models than just changing the tunic and hair color on a barbie doll in this game. Will the game be bad if that's all the character models are? Of course not. However I don't think making the character models more like NWN2 or DA:O is unreasonable. Even if once we're zoomed out they don't look that different I'd like to be able zoom back in for dialogue and or cutscenes if at all possible and see my character.

[Saulot]

In my opinion:

 

1) Style and artistic design are part of what makes a good RPG, or game generally. Poor stylistic choices may not make a game unplayable, but they would put a hard cap on the game's longterm enjoyability.

2) I helped fund an isometric RPG because I do care about graphics. I like the graphics used in the Infinity Engine games, and I think something will be lost when we don't see that type of graphic any more.

3) As long as the game has graphics at all, these stylistic decisions exist and are part of the game's design - hence they can be talked about as much as any part of the game's design. The only time that graphics don't matter is in a text-based game.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Saulot

[UncleBourbon]

Graphics do matter to an extent. We're still looking for a modern game even if it's still a low budget one. As much as I love the BG series I do expect a bit more customization for the character models than just changing the tunic and hair color on a barbie doll in this game. Will the game be bad if that's all the character models are? Of course not. However I don't think making the character models more like NWN2 or DA:O is unreasonable. Even if once we're zoomed out they don't look that different I'd like to be able zoom back in for dialogue and or cutscenes if at all possible and see my character.

 

I would settle for portraits on eight side of the dialog box - despite taking a crazy amount of space, what else are you looking at while chatting? Maybe have a couple of alternates for NPCs based upon certain scenes/moods. That way the character appearence and such isn't too different (though an upgrade would be nice) but the impression might be.

[rjshae]

Yep, graphics whore over here too. However good art design is also perfectly acceptable, in its place.

I want PE to look gorgeous, as does everbody. It's why PE's pledges jumped with the screenshot.

One thing I'm hoping for though, is that the 2D background can be "layered" so that elements of it can move with the panning camera. Of course, if a mostly static image fits the game better, I'm all for that too. Style above all else, I guess.

That might be hard to implement without causing the graphics to tilt. For example, a tall tree would be on a fixed point on the ground, but the top would shift against the more distant background.

[GhostofAnakin]

I think the ladies are sick of being mis-represented in games as well as the whole 'unrealism' thing.

 

I'm not sure it's the ladies making all the fuss. Unless I'm completely off on the posters' gender, a lot of the posts about the boobplate seemed to come from men.

 

As for the topic, I do agree that in this specific game worrying about how the female characters will look is a bit of a waste of time, since detailed graphics aren't exactly going to be a selling point. The only areas that will be affected are character portraits.

 

If this was a Triple-A title that was going for state of the art graphics, then I could see it being an issue since a character running around in boobplate would be noticeable every single moment of the game. But in an isometric game? I don't know.

[Sensuki]

I'm not sure it's the ladies making all the fuss. Unless I'm completely off on the posters' gender, a lot of the posts about the boobplate seemed to come from men.

 

Perhaps I should have worded that more clearly

 

The ladies are sick of being mis-represted in games

 

And people think that it looks unrealistic.

[UncleBourbon]

I think some people were also arguing the boobplate issue for historical sake; afaik it is a controversy that stretched back to the earliest of D&D character drawings.

[Pipyui]

Yep, graphics whore over here too. However good art design is also perfectly acceptable, in its place.

I want PE to look gorgeous, as does everbody. It's why PE's pledges jumped with the screenshot.

One thing I'm hoping for though, is that the 2D background can be "layered" so that elements of it can move with the panning camera. Of course, if a mostly static image fits the game better, I'm all for that too. Style above all else, I guess.

That might be hard to implement without causing the graphics to tilt. For example, a tall tree would be on a fixed point on the ground, but the top would shift against the more distant background.

 

Yeah, I was afraid of something like that. I think with a bit of trickery and cleverness, it could be avoided, but I certainly don't know. Zero artistic talent over here.

[Daulmakan]

I can't help but notice that everyone's talking about the such things as boobplate, PAULDRONS, weapon bling and all that stuff.

What I'd like to ask is: Aren't these pretty much trivial?

Not to me. The IE games looked beautiful, and they still do. Part of the charm of this "revival" is getting another game that looks as good as those did.

 

Storyline and mechanics are important. But as the IE game sproved, you can have them both with good graphics too.

[Hassat Hunter]

Of course we care about graphics. How can you miss the obvious signs? For your convenience, here's a list;

 

* Wanting beautiful crafted 2D environments rather than ugly 3D maps.

* Wanting beautiful portraits for our characters rather than a 3D ugly representation of their head.

* Wanting nicely created icons for items rather than a bland shopping list

 

Etc.

[Ieo]

Well, a few points about the appearance of armour in the game:

• Yes, the sprites will be relatively small
  
• But there is a decent probability that there will be camera zoom
  
• Not to mention the inventory paper doll will definitely be larger than the sprite
  
• And while portraits can be either headshots like in BG, they are nearly full-body in IWD
  
• And the bio portraits are always largest.
  

[svartelric]

If i didn't care about graphics I'd go back at entertaining myself with Lone Wolf gamebooks.

 

Lone Wolf is so great, I replay the whole series every other year...

[Gibbscape_Torment]

To put it simply, art design is extremely important in a project like this; graphics are secondary.

 

You seem to think that art design isn't somehow limited by graphical prowess. Without said prowess, we would be looking at an assortment of pea sized pixels. Graphics and art design overlap in significant ways.

 

Trine 2's art design wouldn't have worked nearly as well without the vibrant lighting effects, or example. It was pivotal to the game's artstyle. If adding a variety of post-processing effects to the game will make the game closer to it's intended atmosphere and general artistic concept, then it is of level importance to gameplay and writing imo.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Gibbscape_Torment