[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[jarpie]

Just had a thought anyone else thinking about,Austin Powers 2 where Powers gets out of the water in a bikini in a Prodidy of Heather Graham. Who says only girls get to wear the Chainmail bikini?

 

Indeed, I'm fine with chainmail bikinis for the ladies, if you have equal parts chainmail mankinis for the gents.

 

Is Obsidian known for writing unrealistic female characters and making sexist characters?

 

You could read my posts:

 

And allow me to also point out, yet again, that I think there is no need to worry too much about the representation of female characters in respect to PE, because the team looks to be doing a great job with it.

 

 

and

 

I LOVED both the choice of making a dwarven ranger female (not a combo you see often, female dwarf you know - "it's the beards!"); and the look of Cadegund. Both would certainly be attractive by offline human standards, but both look like they could indeed be warriors, and while Sagani is showing skin, it's clearly not done in a gratuitous or objectifying way.

 

I feel, OP, that Obsidian is on the ball with this and we need not worry too much.

 

Jumping to conclusions is never a good thing, jarpie. I was just responding to Gyor's comment on Austin Powers in a bikini.

 

Ah my bad...

 

and by the way it's Joukahainen if you took your name from Kalevala.

[Mr Moonlight]

Is Obsidian known for writing unrealistic female characters and making sexist characters?

I quite clearly remember the Handmaiden stripping down to her frilly lace underpants and using the usual "clothing is a cultural construct" excuse.

 

So no nudists ever existed? Or is it "That character is attractive, so it MUST be shameless fanservice!"?

[ruskyandrei]

On the plate bikini issue: Afaik it's already been confirmed by Obsidian that there will be none. I certainly don't want to see it and it makes no sense other than to appeal to men playing the game. (and I CERTAINLY don't want to see men wearing plate bikinis ... holy crap that's an image I'd rather live without).

 

As far as how women are portrayed in the game, I just hope, and knowing Obsidian fully expect, it to simply make sense from the POV of whatever the local lore is. I expect the exact same for men in the game.

 

As far as "feminism" is concerned, my 2 cents are as follows:

 

Women in western society have not been discriminated against for years now.

They have more legal privileges, leniency and support than males in nearly any situation, and there is no case (bar maybe stuff like proffesional football ?) where they are prohibited from taking part.

There are far more women only political, social, educational and sports groups than there are male only (if any).

Most, if not downright all, social "expectations" from women of the 19th-20th century have been phased out completely, while many men are still expected to adhere to them today ( I just love it when I'm next to the door in an elevator and some chick next to me barges in over me because she expects me to let her through first ... sigh )

[Joukehainen]

 

Ah my bad...

 

and by the way it's Joukahainen if you took your name from Kalevala.

 

Indeed it is, I ended up changing the a to an e because people short-forming my name were writing "Jouka" and I thought it looked awkward, whereas "Jouke" phonetically resembles a RL nickname.

[jarpie]

Is Obsidian known for writing unrealistic female characters and making sexist characters?

I quite clearly remember the Handmaiden stripping down to her frilly lace underpants and using the usual "clothing is a cultural construct" excuse.

 

Have you ever seen african or south-american tribes?

[jarpie]

Ah my bad...

 

and by the way it's Joukahainen if you took your name from Kalevala.

 

Indeed it is, I ended up changing the a to an e because people short-forming my name were writing "Jouka" and I thought it looked awkward, whereas "Jouke" phonetically resembles a RL nickname.

 

And what is swedish doing with the name from finnish national epic? ;D

[D3xter]

This place is as bad as the ****ing BSN. Only on the Witcher forums have i seen this discussion taken on with some semblance of civility.

Witcher games are well known for not giving a **** about PC.

And that's why I absolutely love CDProjekt, no DRM, no DLC (or rather they hate DLC), giving out free "Extended Editions" of their games and they aren't bound by any of this "political correctness" nonsense, even when journalists keep bringing it up they turn them down: http://www.rockpaper...lace-in-gaming/

They have a healthy Eastern European perspective on the issue, and much like a lot of the Japanese they simply don't give a ****.

 

Can't wait for the Cyberpunk 2077 game, initial impressions say that this won't change any time soon

 

Now, don't understand me wrong, I'd like their games even without any of the "sex appeal", but I'm just happy that they don't have to and want to compromise their design because a few people on the Internets make a ruckus about it, while the first thing Obsidian did in their campaign is change the design of one of their main characters restrospectively because a few people were "offended" by it, which played into my consideration as to what amount to pledge.

Edited October 19, 2012 by D3xter

[ComradeGoby]

This place is as bad as the ****ing BSN. Only on the Witcher forums have i seen this discussion taken on with some semblance of civility.

Witcher games are well known for not giving a **** about PC.

And that's why I absolutely love CDProjekt, no DRM, no DLC (or rather they hate DLC), giving out free "Extended Editions" of their games and they aren't bound by any of this "political correctness" nonsense, even when journalists keep bringing it up they turn them down: http://www.rockpaper...lace-in-gaming/

They have a healthy Eastern European perspective on the issue, and much like a lot of the Japanese they simply don't give a ****.

 

Can't wait for the Cyberpunk 2077 game, initial impressions say that this won't change any time soon

 

Now, don't understand me wrong, I'd like their games even without any of the "sex appeal", but I'm just happy that they don't have to and want to compromise their design because a few people on the Internets make a ruckus about it, while the first thing Obsidian did in their campaign is change the design of one of their main characters restrospectively because a few people were "offended" by it, which played into my consideration as to what amount to pledge.

 

My polish brethren are fighting the good fight.

 

Also why does nobody every complain about male barbarian outfits or anything?

[Jasede]

Because sexism only applies to women due to the oppressive patriarchy that we live in. It's sad, I know.

[DocDoomII]

D3xter, afaik in Witcher and Withcer 2 there was no chainmail bikinis or stupid things like that. The most audacious armor was Saskia's.

And yes, sorceresses and whores had very revealing clothes, but that was still fitting enough for the characters.

 

Ok, Witcher 1 had the Sex Cards and that was kinda idiotic, but still, nothing stupid like plate mail bikini

 

If anything, more game should approach the argument like the witcher series.

[Malcador]

Did have to laugh when they showed that.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

Is Obsidian known for writing unrealistic female characters and making sexist characters?

I quite clearly remember the Handmaiden stripping down to her frilly lace underpants and using the usual "clothing is a cultural construct" excuse.

 

So no nudists ever existed? Or is it "That character is attractive, so it MUST be shameless fanservice!"?

The simple fact of the matter was that she was arguing from a practical movement perspective, and yet her undergarments emulated a very "form over function" style of Victoria's Secret bull****.

 

The player character's underwear looked like this.

 

Handmaiden's underwear looked like this.

 

There is an obvious difference between what is considered "practical" for a male and what is considered "practical" for females under the same "Echani fighting ritual" cultural excuse.

 

 

Have you ever seen african or south-american tribes?

Yes. They didn't wear lacey Victoria's Secret underpants.

Edited October 19, 2012 by HungryHungryOuroboros

[jarpie]

Is Obsidian known for writing unrealistic female characters and making sexist characters?

I quite clearly remember the Handmaiden stripping down to her frilly lace underpants and using the usual "clothing is a cultural construct" excuse.

 

So no nudists ever existed? Or is it "That character is attractive, so it MUST be shameless fanservice!"?

The simple fact of the matter was that she was arguing from a practical movement perspective, and yet her undergarments emulated a very "form over function" style of Victoria's Secret bull****.

 

The player character's underwear looked like this.

 

Handmaiden's underwear looked like this.

 

There is an obvious difference between what is considered "practical" for a male and what is considered "practical" for females under the same "Echani fighting ritual" cultural excuse.

 

 

Have you ever seen african or south-american tribes?

Yes. They didn't wear lacey Victoria's Secret underpants.

 

And they didn't even wear that much. Oh teh horror!

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

And they didn't even wear that much. Oh teh horror!

There's a pretty strong difference between real people in real scenarios doing what's actually practical and a videogame developer using it as an excuse to put a female character into lacey underpants. There is absolutely no practical reason for those underpants to be lacey frilly sexualized things, and they're trying to treat this character like she's entirely practical. It's dumb. With the Twi'lek twin bounty hunters you got the idea that their character matched the fact that they were walking around showing massive cleavage, with the dancer outfit you have the usual Hutt slobbishness. With the Handmaiden Undies there really is no good reason for them to look the way they do and there are a couple good reasons for them to NOT look like that.

[D3xter]

D3xter, afaik in Witcher and Withcer 2 there was no chainmail bikinis or stupid things like that. The most audacious armor was Saskia's.

And yes, sorceresses and whores had very revealing clothes, but that was still fitting enough for the characters.

 

Ok, Witcher 1 had the Sex Cards and that was kinda idiotic, but still, nothing stupid like plate mail bikini

 

If anything, more game should approach the argument like the witcher series.

I agree entirely, they did it in a very high level way that wasn't cheap or only for titillation and base sexual appeal and it came out great especially in Witcher 2. There are some games that are exaggerating it and make it the basic marketing point and "appeal" for a game and those are doing it wrong imo.

 

What some people seem to be asking for is banning it entirely though, because it may "offend" people (I mean there were a lot of "gaming journalists" that had a problem with Witcher 2 because of that for instance) and that is what pisses me off.

 

By the way, TERA isn't a very good example since a lot of the males are looking like this too, that's just the Japanese way of not giving a **** xD

Edited October 19, 2012 by D3xter

[jarpie]

And they didn't even wear that much. Oh teh horror!

There's a pretty strong difference between real people in real scenarios doing what's actually practical and a videogame developer using it as an excuse to put a female character into lacey underpants. There is absolutely no practical reason for those underpants to be lacey frilly sexualized things, and they're trying to treat this character like she's entirely practical. It's dumb. With the Twi'lek twin bounty hunters you got the idea that their character matched the fact that they were walking around showing massive cleavage, with the dancer outfit you have the usual Hutt slobbishness. With the Handmaiden Undies there really is no good reason for them to look the way they do and there are a couple good reasons for them to NOT look like that.

 

You do know that Star Wars is full of those, even before KOTOR 2? I wouldn't be surprised if they are demanded in contract :D

[DocDoomII]

D3xter, afaik in Witcher and Withcer 2 there was no chainmail bikinis or stupid things like that. The most audacious armor was Saskia's.

And yes, sorceresses and whores had very revealing clothes, but that was still fitting enough for the characters.

 

Ok, Witcher 1 had the Sex Cards and that was kinda idiotic, but still, nothing stupid like plate mail bikini

 

If anything, more game should approach the argument like the witcher series.

I agree entirely, they did it in a very high level way that wasn't cheap or only for titillation and base sexual appeal and it came out great especially in Witcher 2. There are some games that are exaggerating it and make it the basic marketing point and "appeal" for a game and those are doing it wrong imo.

 

What some people seem to be asking for is banning it entirely though, because it may "offend" people (I mean there were a lot of "gaming journalists" that had a problem with Witcher 2 because of that for instance) and that is what pisses me off.

 

By the way, TERA isn't a very good example since a lot of the males are looking like this too, that's just the Japanese way of not giving a **** xD

I didn't even know what game was that. I just googled plate mail bikini and that appeared...

 

The ones that have problems with witcher 2 are just bigots.

I'd like to remember to everyone the Mass Effect Sex Scandal. And in Mass Effect there was just a very, very brief cut-scene with "side alien boobs" and "side alien ass" (I romanced usless Liara, sue me).

This fact pushed BioWare to completely change the approach until they reached the "almost fully clothed sex-scenes".

 

Bigot people just like too much the sound of their own voices.

 

I don't care if there is a brothel in a game where you can go and "do your business", and I don't care if the game fades to black of shows the deed. I just don't want women to go around dressed like armored lap dancers. Is that too much?

[jivex5k]

There's a place for people wearing sexy outfits in a fantasy themed cRPG, it's called a brothel.

[Sykid]

And they didn't even wear that much. Oh teh horror!

There's a pretty strong difference between real people in real scenarios doing what's actually practical and a videogame developer using it as an excuse to put a female character into lacey underpants. There is absolutely no practical reason for those underpants to be lacey frilly sexualized things, and they're trying to treat this character like she's entirely practical. It's dumb. With the Twi'lek twin bounty hunters you got the idea that their character matched the fact that they were walking around showing massive cleavage, with the dancer outfit you have the usual Hutt slobbishness. With the Handmaiden Undies there really is no good reason for them to look the way they do and there are a couple good reasons for them to NOT look like that.

 

One female companion in KOTOR2 wears slightly revealing underwear (nothing more scandalous that you'd see on a family beach), while the rest do not. Female Exile wears the same underwear as male Exile. Who cares? When it comes to the portrayal of women, the fact that Handmaiden wears bra + panties in what is admitted to be an Echani courtship ritual is so minute compared to the awesome female characters Obsidian wrote, like Kreia, Atris, and Visas.

 

But hey, this is a PC game. You want equal underwear? There's a mod for that.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

And they didn't even wear that much. Oh teh horror!

There's a pretty strong difference between real people in real scenarios doing what's actually practical and a videogame developer using it as an excuse to put a female character into lacey underpants. There is absolutely no practical reason for those underpants to be lacey frilly sexualized things, and they're trying to treat this character like she's entirely practical. It's dumb. With the Twi'lek twin bounty hunters you got the idea that their character matched the fact that they were walking around showing massive cleavage, with the dancer outfit you have the usual Hutt slobbishness. With the Handmaiden Undies there really is no good reason for them to look the way they do and there are a couple good reasons for them to NOT look like that.

 

One female companion in KOTOR2 wears slightly revealing underwear (nothing more scandalous that you'd see on a family beach), while the rest do not. Female Exile wears the same underwear as male Exile. Who cares? When it comes to the portrayal of women, the fact that Handmaiden wears bra + panties in what is admitted to be an Echani courtship ritual is so minute compared to the awesome female characters Obsidian wrote, like Kreia, Atris, and Visas.

 

But hey, this is a PC game. You want equal underwear? There's a mod for that.

1. Mods are a moot point. A ****ty game that is released with a mod tool that is then used to make a far better game is not suddenly a good game. It is a ****ty game with a good mod.

2. It was a cross-platform game. Mods don't exist for the console audience. Granted, I'm not a console player and tend to disregard the console audience, but Obsidian was designing the game for them too.

3. Other characters being done well does not make badly-done characters suddenly great. Carth is not magically transmuted into a good character just because I like HK-47.

Edited October 19, 2012 by HungryHungryOuroboros

[Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin]

while the first thing Obsidian did in their campaign is change the design of one of their main characters restrospectively because a few people were "offended" by it, which played into my consideration as to what amount to pledge.

Even that night not be a good sign I'm happy they changed it as boob armor looked really retarded.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin

[Mr Moonlight]

People will always find something to complain about. I've said all I've wanted to say on this subject.

[temporalTemptation]

I would like to start by pointing out that no matter what you're arguing, no matter what the debate, when you put the word "offend" or "offensive" in quotation marks and you aren't quoting it or talking about the word itself, you look like a douche. I can accept that you have a different opinion to me or the person you're talking to, but dismissing the idea that they're legitimately offended with such and obvious and passive-aggressive method is just disrespectful. It also undermines any point you're trying to make by painting yourself as someone who is unsympathetic. If you're actively discussing what it means to be offended then that's fine. If you're doing it just to dne snidey towards those that claim to be offended, then you're a prick.

 

That tangent aside, females do have it bad in games. For a start, most games seem to be made and marketed towards males, which creates a male-centric bias. This isn't to say all games are bad or sexist, it's just something that needs to be acknowledged. And it's not something that is a problem with an individual game, more the gaming industry as a whole. For example, for every female protagonist in a game you could name, I could name half a dozen male ones. This isn't to say that every game with a male protagonist is sexist, or that those with a female protagonist aren't, it's just something you notice when you look at the bigger picture.

 

So how does this link to females and their fanserviciness. Well, you could look at a girl running around in her underwear in a game and say that it's not sexist, as within that story it's justified. And, whilst there's a strong sexual element to it, it'd be tough to say that that was all there was to the female character, or that the sexual elements ruin the game. However, you could look at the amount of time females are used for fanservice in games and compare it to the amount of times men are; if you did so, you'd find that females would win by an overwhelming amount. Again, this doesn't mean that fanservice involving females is automatically unjustifiable whilst fanservice involving men is the height of feminism; it's just something you spot when you look at the bigger picture.

 

And so what would the solution be? I mean, once you've identified a trend, one that you think is unfair on women, the solution is kind of difficult. Does one have an enforced affirmative action in terms of men and women with fanservice? Does one try to steer clear of fanservice altogether? Does one dismiss these issues and simply focus on accomodating supply and demand? If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them. If hardly anyone asks for men running around in their underwear, then it seems pointless putting them in.

 

There is seldom a clear answer, but in the case of Project Eternity, I think it's not hard to find a compromise. It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

[Sykid]

1. Mods are a moot point. A ****ty game that is released with a mod tool that is then used to make a far better game is not suddenly a good game. It is a ****ty game with a good mod.

 

Feminism in video games has never been about making good games. It's been about changing gamers and using videogames as a platform for championing social causes.

 

Mods completely invalidate the argument at hand. The devs have an artistic vision; if you don't like it you can mod the game to make the art more to you liking. If you like sexy boob armor (which I don't) then there's a mod for that. If you like to play in a world where everybody wears the exact same underwear for some reason then fill your boots, there's a mod for that.

 

2. It was a cross-platform game. Mods don't exist for the console audience. Granted, I'm not a console player and tend to disregard the console audience, but Obsidian was designing the game for them too.

 

Project Eternity -- the game this thread is about -- is not a console game.

 

 

3. Other characters being done well does not make badly-done characters suddenly great. Carth is not magically transmuted into a good character just because I like HK-47.

 

We are talking about representation of women in videogames, which Obsidian has a track record of doing very well. One character wearing slightly revealing underwear that is actually pretty normal by our standards is a far cry from being unrealistic, sexist, or presenting "a cast stuffed with highly sexualized" characters.

 

KOTOR2 was fine. P:E will be fine.

[Ruka]

I would like to start by pointing out that no matter what you're arguing, no matter what the debate, when you put the word "offend" or "offensive" in quotation marks and you aren't quoting it or talking about the word itself, you look like a douche. I can accept that you have a different opinion to me or the person you're talking to, but dismissing the idea that they're legitimately offended with such and obvious and passive-aggressive method is just disrespectful. It also undermines any point you're trying to make by painting yourself as someone who is unsympathetic. If you're actively discussing what it means to be offended then that's fine. If you're doing it just to dne snidey towards those that claim to be offended, then you're a prick.

 

That tangent aside, females do have it bad in games. For a start, most games seem to be made and marketed towards males, which creates a male-centric bias. This isn't to say all games are bad or sexist, it's just something that needs to be acknowledged. And it's not something that is a problem with an individual game, more the gaming industry as a whole. For example, for every female protagonist in a game you could name, I could name half a dozen male ones. This isn't to say that every game with a male protagonist is sexist, or that those with a female protagonist aren't, it's just something you notice when you look at the bigger picture.

 

So how does this link to females and their fanserviciness. Well, you could look at a girl running around in her underwear in a game and say that it's not sexist, as within that story it's justified. And, whilst there's a strong sexual element to it, it'd be tough to say that that was all there was to the female character, or that the sexual elements ruin the game. However, you could look at the amount of time females are used for fanservice in games and compare it to the amount of times men are; if you did so, you'd find that females would win by an overwhelming amount. Again, this doesn't mean that fanservice involving females is automatically unjustifiable whilst fanservice involving men is the height of feminism; it's just something you spot when you look at the bigger picture.

 

And so what would the solution be? I mean, once you've identified a trend, one that you think is unfair on women, the solution is kind of difficult. Does one have an enforced affirmative action in terms of men and women with fanservice? Does one try to steer clear of fanservice altogether? Does one dismiss these issues and simply focus on accomodating supply and demand? If people ask for ladies in swimsuits, they should be allowed to get them. If hardly anyone asks for men running around in their underwear, then it seems pointless putting them in.

 

There is seldom a clear answer, but in the case of Project Eternity, I think it's not hard to find a compromise. It's not unthinking that some men and women would favour vanity over practicality and would run around with their assets on display. It's also quite probably that men and women of many different body types would show up in this fictional world; perhaps adventurers would be fitter than most, but not always. It's also possible that, should some women choose to adventure in lingerie, that the inherent absurdity of it will be milked for all it's worth.

 

Well said