[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[casa]

I find this thread hilariously ironic with so many men debating the looks on women. Come on fighting the good fight, my dear white knights!

 

 

(seriously, maybe one or two women are participating perhaps?)

 

 

On that topic, I think there's a serious misunderstanding here, although some posters might actually fall into the above category.

But when I say I don't want chainmail bikinis and huge boobs and whatnot (also not barbarian/GI males), this has nothing to do with fighting the PC fight for women liberation - as I said before, I like games that scratch the topics of sexism, racism, etc. as long as it leads to a deeper story experience.

What I want is an IMMERSIVE game with a decent and subtle style. I'm not thinking only that chainmail bikinis and oversexualized characters are sexist, I simply think they're stupid, dumb, unerotic and an annoyance in many games. I like women, and hell, I even look at their "features" from time to time because that's just human nature. But that doesn't mean I like porn starletts with blown-up features only running around in ridiculous lingeries. I actually like normal women. And the same applies to games. I have nothing against erotic, but I hate the way most games only cater a male virgin audience on the lowest level.

[Jasede]

Yes, that's fine but when you have that sort of discussion it'll attract the other kind as well. Believe me when I tell you the "haters" don't want ridiculous chainmail bikinis either.

[RaccoonTOF]

Actually a number of them have stated pretty directly that they DO in fact want to see just that...or other similar portrayals. At least a couple in this thread directly I believe as well, though it was quite a few pages back and I've kinda lost track of where things were said after the merge...

[Moirnelithe]

I am wondering how long they can keep spinning up about this, though.

 

Honestly, I don't care if there is any sexy female clothing and what not as long as the story and gameplay isn't affected. The only thing I insist on is the possibility of playing a female character and the world reacting to that.

 

Your bitterness at games past aside, when you say you want the world to react to your PC being female, what kind of reactions are you thinking of, out of curiosity ?

Not calling me "my lord/sir" etc. would be good. So taking the effort to replace words based on gender selection would definitely be appreciated. I'm not looking for a feminist game, just being able to play it without getting janked out of the story. I'd also like it if female NPCs wouldn't all automatically hit on me while male NPCs go out of their way to act like I'm their 'bro'. If there are character portraits, armour, etc. make them varied, some women do like to wear 'chainmail bikinis' but let it be their choice, just like some men might want to wear something else than a 'dress' when choosing a mage class. Other than that just act in a way that fits the story, no catering to one gender over the other please.

[FlintlockJazz]

I find this thread hilariously ironic with so many men debating the looks on women. Come on fighting the good fight, my dear white knights!

 

 

(seriously, maybe one or two women are participating perhaps?)

 

 

On that topic, I think there's a serious misunderstanding here, although some posters might actually fall into the above category.

But when I say I don't want chainmail bikinis and huge boobs and whatnot (also not barbarian/GI males), this has nothing to do with fighting the PC fight for women liberation - as I said before, I like games that scratch the topics of sexism, racism, etc. as long as it leads to a deeper story experience.

What I want is an IMMERSIVE game with a decent and subtle style. I'm not thinking only that chainmail bikinis and oversexualized characters are sexist, I simply think they're stupid, dumb, unerotic and an annoyance in many games. I like women, and hell, I even look at their "features" from time to time because that's just human nature. But that doesn't mean I like porn starletts with blown-up features only running around in ridiculous lingeries. I actually like normal women. And the same applies to games. I have nothing against erotic, but I hate the way most games only cater a male virgin audience on the lowest level.

Agree totally, the catering to teens with their steroid heroes with oversized weapons is what I'm arguing against mainly.

[Malcador]

Not calling me "my lord/sir" etc. would be good. So taking the effort to replace words based on gender selection would definitely be appreciated. I'm not looking for a feminist game, just being able to play it without getting janked out of the story. I'd also like it if female NPCs wouldn't all automatically hit on me while male NPCs go out of their way to act like I'm their 'bro'. If there are character portraits, armour, etc. make them varied, some women do like to wear 'chainmail bikinis' but let it be their choice, just like some men might want to wear something else than a 'dress' when choosing a mage class. Other than that just act in a way that fits the story, no catering to one gender over the other please.

 

Ah, well that's pretty easy stuff, can't imagine why this would be a concern from Obsidian.

[UncleBourbon]

Not calling me "my lord/sir" etc. would be good. So taking the effort to replace words based on gender selection would definitely be appreciated. I'm not looking for a feminist game, just being able to play it without getting janked out of the story. I'd also like it if female NPCs wouldn't all automatically hit on me while male NPCs go out of their way to act like I'm their 'bro'. If there are character portraits, armour, etc. make them varied, some women do like to wear 'chainmail bikinis' but let it be their choice, just like some men might want to wear something else than a 'dress' when choosing a mage class. Other than that just act in a way that fits the story, no catering to one gender over the other please.

 

Ah, well that's pretty easy stuff, can't imagine why this would be a concern from Obsidian.

 

I too, think it won't be as much of an issue for the developers, Sigillite. That said, the balance of broad content versus PC specific dialogue is a careful balance. Simple things like titles is one thing, but in building the dialogue it would, as far as I know, mean basically including two lines, one for each gender, and then perhaps more for certain races or origins.

[Darth Trethon]

Can we just forget about the whole politically correct nonsense on the issue? The whole thing is a farce anyway. The bottom line is I'm certain that beyond the wannabe internet knights nobody wants ugly/fat people in games.....I see enough in real life thank you very much so keep them the hell OUT of my games. I'm sure women don't want to see ugly or fat men in games(let alone as companions) any more than men want to see ugly or fat women so just drop the nonsense.

 

The game is supposed to be fantasy anyway so give me beautiful, smart and strong women with a sensitive and caring side. That would be great. If I want to see ugly and fat people all I have have to do is leave the house and I have to do that a lot more than I'd like(what with work and life and all that).....you should try it sometimes before asking they be placed in a game.

[Moirnelithe]

I too, think it won't be as much of an issue for the developers, Sigillite. That said, the balance of broad content versus PC specific dialogue is a careful balance. Simple things like titles is one thing, but in building the dialogue it would, as far as I know, mean basically including two lines, one for each gender, and then perhaps more for certain races or origins.

I know it would require more work but this is one of the reasons why I object to full voice-overs in an RPG. Text based dialogue will make it a lot easier to implement character based dialogue. That said, I do think having the choice to play a female character has been an issue with Obsidian in the past, look at PS:T and AP, they both feature male protagonists only. And I'd really like to see that particular design choice go the way of the Dodo.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Moirnelithe

[Chabneruk]

I find it even more ironic that the people who find this thread ironic and want it closed are the ones who would be the main reason pro-closing if there was ever the question of it being closed. "It will lead to nothing good", seriously? Preventive closing of threads?

 

So far it has brought forth a number of very interesting ideas, all centered around the question of the depiction of genders ingame.

 

Not calling me "my lord/sir" etc. would be good. So taking the effort to replace words based on gender selection would definitely be appreciated. I'm not looking for a feminist game, just being able to play it without getting janked out of the story. I'd also like it if female NPCs wouldn't all automatically hit on me while male NPCs go out of their way to act like I'm their 'bro'. If there are character portraits, armour, etc. make them varied, some women do like to wear 'chainmail bikinis' but let it be their choice, just like some men might want to wear something else than a 'dress' when choosing a mage class. Other than that just act in a way that fits the story, no catering to one gender over the other please.

 

I support the idea of women playing the game without losing immersion halfway through because of male-centered dialogue as well. Still, Chainmail Bikini? That would kind of ruin my immersion in a believable fantasy world. I mean, where is the point? If they want to look sexy, they would dress in clothes, not chainmail. Its simply unpractical and would not make sense ingame - which is the one thing that should stand before everything else.

[Coincidence]

Why do people think the only option besides "beautiful" is "fat and ugly"?

[NerdBoner]

sigh

 

despite what popular culture would have us believe, MEN are NOT created equal....you only need to look around in your own life to see this is FACT.

 

Women and men even less so...women have different strengths that are generally undeveloped in men and vice versa; this desperate need for "equality" (in gaming no less, how laughable) is not only insulting but diminishes both genders to some kind of wannabe neuter species.

 

a strong women, doesn't need to look, dress or act in anyway like some 80's/90's action star to prove "she can play with the boys"...such a notion is laughable at best.

 

and all you white knighter's, championing a flawed ultra feminist "equality" approach, would better spend such wasted time in more fruitful pursuits such as picking your noses and masturbating.

 

Baring radical genetic engineering of the species: Women are not men, they don't want to dress or ACT like men and the reverse is true for males. It is, as it was meant to be by EVOLUTION. One gender is not superior to the other.

 

bleh, but f*ck it...all you guys care about are "boobplate" and npc romances anyway...

 

kill me now, this is a new BSN in the making.

[Jasede]

Why do people have a thread like this when Obsidian gave us characters like Kreia, Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, Visas, etc., etc.?

[evdk]

Why do people have a thread like this when Obsidian gave us characters like Kreia, Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, Visas, etc., etc.?

Because these characters weren't in BG and so the majority never encountered them, duh.

[NerdBoner]

Why do people have a thread like this when Obsidian gave us characters like Kreia, Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, Visas, etc., etc.?

pfft, who knows...

 

i'm still wondering why this is such a big deal in an isometric game where bodytypes will probably be a non-issue.

[Chabneruk]

Why do people have a thread like this when Obsidian gave us characters like Kreia, Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, Visas, etc., etc.?

 

Because they did good work with these characters and thats a trend which should continue - and the developers should see that the players support diverse, interesting female characters.

 

i'm still wondering why this is such a big deal in an isometric game where bodytypes will probably be a non-issue.

 

Loading screens, artwork, intro, character portraits...

[RaccoonTOF]

Hmm...so promoting realistic (within the context of the game world/systems) distribution of average, above average, and below average individuals, plus deeply varied character types that go beyond the stereotypes, and include all sorts of body types makes someone a "wannabe internet knight" that never leaves the house and should occupy their time picking their nose and masturbating. I guess reasoned discussions of deep issues isn't something that is allowed to be talked about in a "fantasy game", else it will just draw in the stereotypical crowd looking to, indeed, cause this to become a "new BSN in the making" rather than an actual intelligent adult forum...

[Malcador]

I know it would require more work but this is one of the reasons why I object to full voice-overs in an RPG. Text based dialogue will make it a lot easier to implement character based dialogue. That said, I do think having the choice to play a female character has been an issue with Obsidian in the past, look at PS:T and AP, they both feature male protagonists only. And I'd really like to see that particular design choice go the way of the Dodo.

 

Well given that this isn't fully voiced, it makes avoiding this issue easy - I'd imagine making a Michelle Thorton would have pressed their budget. Then again, maybe they just wanted to tell a story about a male protagonist in those games.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Malcador

[Malcador]

Because they did good work with these characters and thats a trend which should continue - and the developers should see that the players support diverse, interesting female characters.

 

Loading screens, artwork, intro, character portraits...

 

Not much meat behind telling them to continue a trend though, they're not fools, after all.

 

 

EDIT : sorry for the double post.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Malcador

[Meshugger]

Why do people have a thread like this when Obsidian gave us characters like Kreia, Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, Visas, etc., etc.?

 

Stop talking sense, that's a masculine trait. Shooo!

[Jasede]

You should choose your words more carefully you cis-gendered bigot. I bet you don't even raise your children gender neutrally.

[Chabneruk]

Not much meat behind telling them to continue a trend though, they're not fools, after all.

 

I just wanted to give you a reason that has not been named already. There are plenty more hidden in this thread already, but since i have to repeat them over and over I try to vary it a bit. Short version: You can either participate in the brainstorming for making the game better by thinking about cultural diversity (in regards to beauty) and a realistic, interesting, non-standard depiction of women in games or you can do, what a few posters like NerdBoner and Jasede have done for pages now: Try to bring this down to a discussion about political correctness, accusing others of whiteknighting and, in short, spam this thread.

 

I'd like to see you included in the discussion, though. Your choice

Edited October 19, 2012 by Chabneruk

[Meshugger]

You should choose your words more carefully you cis-gendered bigot. I bet you don't even raise your children gender neutrally.

 

No, I would actually let them be children. It's sad, i know

Edited October 19, 2012 by Meshugger

[Brannart]

I support the idea of women playing the game without losing immersion halfway through because of male-centered dialogue as well. Still, Chainmail Bikini? That would kind of ruin my immersion in a believable fantasy world. I mean, where is the point? If they want to look sexy, they would dress in clothes, not chainmail. Its simply unpractical and would not make sense ingame - which is the one thing that should stand before everything else.

 

Well, as you say, it depends on the artistic style of the game. If people are wearing crazy artistic weird clothes, like say PS:T, then weird stuff like Annah's outfit is no big deal. Likewise if the men are fighting in loincloths then women in chainmail bikinis is not going to bug me. But yeah if the men are wearing full plate then lets stay consistent here.

 

But I think the good people at Oblivion understand artistic motif. I mean expect most of the characters to be sexy, this is fantasy after all, but lets not go overboard unless we are going overboard as an aesthetic.

 

From what I remember from women is they do not mind crazy sexy clothes on the females so long as the men get the same treatment and that's fair. And generally I think that is what they have gotten from BIS/Obsdian in the past.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Brannart

[Brannart]

Why do people have a thread like this when Obsidian gave us characters like Kreia, Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, Visas, etc., etc.?

 

Yeah I have no idea. The female characters in Obsidian/BIS games have always been awesome so do we really need to state more than 'keep up the good work'?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Brannart