good and bad from Arcanum

[Michael_Galt]

So, this is separate, yet related. Almost everyone on this forum likely at least know what Baldur's Gate is, or played it (or Icewind Dale, Fallout, or possibly Planescape: Torment), but they don't necessarily know what Arcanum was, or even if they have heard of it, didn't play it. I bring this up because several of the people on Project Eternity (primary being Tim Cain) also worked on Arcanum. I'm going to list the best and worst features I remember from the game, and to create a poll from that, so that we can see what people really remember enjoying, so that perhaps that might encourage the developers of Project Eternity to include similar features in Project Eternity. I was going to put a list of things that you WOULDN'T want to see, but couldn't really think of a good list.

 

Liked/Loved:

- Classless. I loved that my character could be a composite of whatever I wanted. A little bit of a gambler, swordsman, chemist. The Fallout series also did this pretty well, but I feel that Arcanum really provided more concrete opportunities. As an example, there were plenty of people to gamble with, though not all had that much money, and you could get rich if you were good enough. I understand it won't be in PE, and I get the reasons for it. Looks like they are just making the classes slightly less restrictive (depending on the class), which I am a fan of.

- Attributes MATTERED. I believe Arcanum was the only game I have played that had a Beauty attribute, which was well implemented. The reaction you garnered from people was based off of key factors: race, magical/technological aptitude, charisma, intelligence, and beauty. The aptitude was peculiar to the game, so no need to go into detail on that, and many RPGs have paralleled that with your faction alignment. Charisma and intelligence have also been done quite a bit, so no need to dwell on them. But Beauty brought in a new factor. The INITIAL reaction was based on how attractive you were- if you were highly attractive, you were more likely to get a positive reaction, if you were highly repulsive, more likely to get a negative one. I really liked that. In general, there was no need to make your character anything except average, but if you wanted to really "roleplay", you could sacrifice some other attribute to make yourself into a charismatic seducer/seductress that might have bad constitution, or luck, or dexterity, but is highly charismatic and attractive, so gets people to do what they want because of their charm. Or you could make them ugly, yet charismatic and brilliant, and though people would initially react badly to you, they would end up changing their minds because you were actually intelligent and witty.

- Race mattered. Yes, it was set in Victorian times, so it was slightly a product of the universe. That being said, playing as a different race brought LOTS of different things to how you experienced the game. For instance, if you were a dwarf, many elves would react significantly less favorably to you than most of the other races. If you played a half-ogre or half-orc, pretty much no one would react well to you, and many would be plain rude or hostile. I've never played another RPG where it had as much of a net impact on the gameplay and "experience" of the universe.

- Discovery. As a technologist, you could find or purchase schematics that weren't in your normal "skill progression" (the schematics you automatically learned under each discipline). Some of them were simple, some complex. It made it more interesting, because you KNEW that there was more out there and you had more opportunities for developing your character than the "conventional", "standard" method. I think they could have done that with spells too, but they didn't. I would love for that to be a feature in PE, for the crafting or alchemy. You have the "standard" potions/recipes/items you could create, but could learn or find others through exploration or quests.

- Dialogue. Some just generally good stuff. There was "theological", "social", "historical" and "scientific" conversations, as well as just silly. It was a very good mix. I hope there is some real dialogue in this game, which goes outside the bounds of what is "necessary" to the main storyline or even quests altogether.

- Backgrounds. Arcanum had some really interesting "pre-fabbed" backgrounds. You would use these to really laser-focus customize your character. Do you want an "idiot savant"? Well, there was literally a background for that. An arsonist? Sure, got one. And therer were backgrounds specific to certain races, that you wouldn't know about unless you made a character of that race and started looking through your options. I'm pretty sure they said they would have something like this in PE.

- Training. Many RPGs have included training, but I like how it was implemented in Arcanum. You could "max out" a skill, in terms of the amount of points you put into it, but that didn't give you all the benefits. Finding the beginning, expert, and master trainer did that. So if 2 individuals that each had 5 points in melee faced off, it wasn't necessarily an equal fight if one of them had never received formal training. To me, that makes sense, as it says it was learned, but not taught, so it isn't "refined". Also, there were often quests connected to receiving higher level training, which added another dimension to your experience (and sometimes made that training "free").

- Lots of stuff well outside of the main storyline. You could literally wander around and find things. Many RPGs have had this, but I think that Arcanum had proportionately, more opportunities for this. Some of them tied into the main storyline, some had nothing to do with it.

- The economy. There was a really good balance between how much money you could "make" and what you could "get". If you played a technologist, you could make items that sold for more than it cost for you to make them, which was a good way to make money. If you wanted to focus on gambling, you could also do excellently, without having to sell a single thing. Merchants had inventories that changed over time. They might have the same base items, but would occasionally get different things of similar type/value. You didn't have to worry about them "running out" of bullets, or some other type of expendable, because they would restock within a few days. I can't overstate how much I dislike having to find a different merchant to buy expendables from, because the nearest one "ran out". That's ridiculous. They are a merchant- if I'm buying the heck out of them, then they would get more, because it's making them money.

- Pickpocketing dynamics. You could "see" everything that was stealable, and try to take anything. That being said, if you tried to steal their ring, that would be more difficult that swiping some coins from their purse. So it wasn't always based on the size of the item, but rather, the "importance" of it to the subject. Oh, and if you pickpocketed them while they were asleep, you had a MUCH greater chance of success, which makes sense.

- Map travel. I liked that you sort of "watched" as you proceeded from day to day, rather than just "fast-traveling" immediately to another part of the map, just being told how much time progressed. It made the travel seem more "real". It was still fast, but it wasn't instant.

 

Disliked/hated:

- The graphics. That almost caused me not to play it. It was just too cartoony, and didn't seem appropriate to the subject. Luckily, don't have to worry about that in PE.

- The combat. Pretty strongly modeled on Fallout, and essentially only playable when set on turn-based- pure chaos in real time. Again, fortunately, not going to be an issue in PE.

- Party dynamics. Most of the NPCs you could have as companions, ceased being interesting as soon as you got them to join you. After that, they pretty much became mute. PLEASE Obsidian, don't allow that to happen in PE. I like the conversation triggers that have to do with quest progression, time spent in party, level progress, and interactions with various other NPCs, whether merchants, enemies, or whatever.

[Gennadios]

I agree with all the pros, can't give preference to any one.

 

My only issue was the combat system and the jagged, stilted movement and animation. In this case won't be a problem as the maps will be pre-rendered instead of tile based.

 

Also, for the good of all that is holy, no real-time/turn based hybrid mechanics. Stick to one system and make it good. Only game where I tolerated it was X-Com: Apocalypse, and even that may have just been the rose-tinted glasses.

[eimatshya]

The art style in Arcanum didn't bother me at all. But then I like cartoons. I do agree with OP's criticism of the combat and companions, though.

 

While there were a lot of really cool things about Arcanum, out of the ones OP mentions, I think the backgrounds are the one I would most like to see brought into P:E. In some games, you have a character with a preset background (e.g. KotOR II), and that usually works. In games where you don't, and it sounds like P:E is one of the those games, it's nice to be able to have some sort of background. The plethora of backgrounds available in Arcanum allowed you to be less of a blank slate, while still giving you a ton of freedom to create whatever kind of character you wished. Character creation was easily my favorite part of the game.

 

One thing that I don't think OP mentioned that I really liked about the game was the ability to climb through windows and break/blast open doors and windows. It might be neat to have similar possibilities in P:E.

[Skie Nightfall]

Easily picked: The impact of race on how you were reacted to and treated in the game.

 

It was the first (and only) game I played where being an half orc, or not beautiful, actually impacted dialogue.

Lots of other great things about the game though

[6h00]

The graduation between steamwork and magic which does not allow to be efficient enough in both field was a bit frustrating. i.e. more critical fail with guns when using a magical character. But still a good balancing stuff.

 

I totaly agree with this post, except for one thing: I only played ARCANUM in real time fighting ! (thank you Sniper).

 

Also, the dog was awsome, fighting golems without breaking melee weapons ^^.

Edited October 15, 2012 by 6h00

[Frisk]

My favourite was the possibility of allowing you to develop your character in mutually exclusive ways - that is, you could anvance in the tech field, but beome unable to handle magic or vice versa. That's a prime example of a meaningful choice, with extensive changes on the gameplay, and iit really increases replayability.

 

Of course, many other games have something similar - typically something like factions - you join or assist one group and some other group will turn hostile, or at least less willing to assist you or whatever. I am pretty confident we will get something along those lines in PE.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Frisk

[Karranthain]

On the crafting : http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61162-take-a-page-or-two-from-arcanums-crafting-system/

 

I picked skill trainers - I really like the master quests tied to them.

[general_azure]

Can't decide here... character backgrounds were neat, but so were the various ways dialogue adapted to your character. Also, bonus points for actually being able to slap a manservant outfit on the guy hauling my stuff.

[StreetBushido]

Interesting thread, but I feel that a Poll is a lacking format since I wanted to choose more than one alternative. I went with "The sheer scope of the dialogue possibilities and subjects.". Arcanum made a real effort to show that we, the players, were actually having some kind of impact on the world we were interacting with.

[Lysen]

Arcanum is awesome and honestly I don't remember anything bad about it. Some say that the magick system was unbalanced, but I didn't play as a mage much. Graphics was beautiful and combat decent enough (in turn-based mode). I don't usually care much about the combat in RPGs anyway. In Arcanum you had a lot to do without it: you could use stealth to avoid enemies or persuasion to talk them out of fight, pickpocket items, craft equipment (Arcanum probably had the best crafting system). Attributes and skills really mattered, and with the classless system you could make any type of character you wanted. Too bad that they don't make games like this anymore.

[evdk]

Just don't take any clues from Arcanum's combat and build balancing, that's all I'm asking.

[Lysen]

From Reddit:

 

Considering how popular steampunk has gotten, have you thought of making a sequel to Arcanum? Would you have the rights to it, or are they held by Activision Blizzard?

 

Tim Cain: those rights are held by Activision Blizzard, who got them from a chain of buy-sell events occurring after Sierra closed. I have often thought of making a sequel to Arcanum, especially since Troika designed a sequel called "Journey to the Centre of Arcanum" back in 2001, but I don't own the rights and there doesn't seem much interest from the publisher to back such a project

 

:sigh:

[aVENGER]

Tim Cain: those rights are held by Activision Blizzard, who got them from a chain of buy-sell events occurring after Sierra closed. I have often thought of making a sequel to Arcanum, especially since Troika designed a sequel called "Journey to the Centre of Arcanum" back in 2001, but I don't own the rights and there doesn't seem much interest from the publisher to back such a project

 

Hmm, I wonder about that.

 

Considering that ex-BIS/Troika Leonard Boyarsky is now working at Blizzard (Lead World Designer on Diablo 3) maybe he could pitch the idea to someone in the management. However, knowing Activision, they would probably want to turn it into a FPS or something.

[Mazhlekov]

For me the most intriguing was the areas outside of the main locations, they was playable and I was able to walk from one location to other without entering a fast travel in the main map. Something more: with this mechanics I was able to discover secret locations from rummors or just accidently. I think, this playable аreas was randomly generated. All this gave me a sense of endless and full of mysteries world. I hope to see such thing in PE.

[Vox Draco]

I remember playing that game a long time ago...I am getting old...

 

But I really liked the most that my ugly sociopathic half-orc (who later had no qualms on destroying the world *cough*) was treated so ddifferently than my beautiful half-elven mage (who did the right thing of course...whatever that was)

 

I also liked the unusual approach of the setting, and maybe PE will slightly go in that direction. Stuff like Orcs being used by the capitalistic gnomes as cheap laborers, the conflict between the oldfashioned/outdated magic and the great new age of steamworks and guns. I really with someone would visit that world once more, with a better graphic and battle-system

 

But yeah, the weakest point surely was the party/companions (beside the battles). Don't even remember a single one by name...

[Lysen]

It's strange that you don't remember them, some of the companions had very memorable personalities: Virgil, Magnus, Raven, Geoffrey and, of course, Worthless Mutt

[Hormalakh]

I remember being frustrated with something specific about Arcanum. But I lost that gamedisk a long time ago. I'm thinking it had something to do with battles. There might have been bugs in it or something too. I still remember the music though. I loved that music.....Carry on.

[PeonWarrior]

IMO, Bioware nailed it in DA:O. I couldn't stand the combat system in Arcanum which was the main reason I stopped playing very early on the game back in 2001(?). Fast forward 6 years later and no matter how hard I tried just couldn't get into the game. I see PE heading towards this direction using the stamina mechanic, once all your stamina runs out your character/companion becomes unconscious on the ground then just watch enemies wack the bejeezus out of ya - blah!

[Hormalakh]

I think the way this mechanic is supposed to work is that your stamina is what most people would consider HP in other games, whereas your health is more a long term HP. Since the game is going to be permadeath (if on expert mode, maimed on normal), it doesn't make sense to make HP something that is fairly flimsy. I think it just makes for better realism and a better immersion.

[Frisk]

I remember being frustrated with something specific about Arcanum. But I lost that gamedisk a long time ago. I'm thinking it had something to do with battles. There might have been bugs in it or something too. I still remember the music though. I loved that music.....Carry on.

 

Wasn't it just that annoying show-stopping bug somewhere in the middle? You had to apply a patch to be able to complete the game, IIRC.

[Hormalakh]

^ Possibly. But I think I beat the game. I never buy a game and not beat it. Never.

[Michael_Galt]

One thing that I don't think OP mentioned that I really liked about the game was the ability to climb through windows and break/blast open doors and windows. It might be neat to have similar possibilities in P:E.

 

Yes! I totally forgot about that- you could also break containers, which could smash the items inside in the process, and some containers were stronger than others. This was great, because you didn't NEED a "thief", but you had a good incentive for one, since otherwise, it would damage melee weapons, or spend possibly expensive ammo for ranged weapons. Great point.

[Michael_Galt]

Easily picked: The impact of race on how you were reacted to and treated in the game.

 

It was the first (and only) game I played where being an half orc, or not beautiful, actually impacted dialogue.

Lots of other great things about the game though

 

I agree. I didn't realize just HOW true this was until I did my run through as a half-ogre genius warrior. I had an HIGH intelligence, but also strong fighting abilities. My policy was simple- I would act polite and respectful to everyone, because I wasn't a brute, and wanted to prove it. But if someone said some degrading thing to me, on account of my heritage, I would politely give them one opportunity to "rethink" or "reword" what they said. If they didn't, I would kill them, unless I was utterly sure that they could defeat me. Needless to say, I had to kill quite a few people

[Michael_Galt]

Interesting thread, but I feel that a Poll is a lacking format since I wanted to choose more than one alternative. I went with "The sheer scope of the dialogue possibilities and subjects.". Arcanum made a real effort to show that we, the players, were actually having some kind of impact on the world we were interacting with.

 

Yeah, sorry about that. I was going to allow multiple choices, and ask that people limit themselves to their "top 2", but I feared that people would either ignore that, or not read it, which would result in the poll getting really skewed, because people picked 6 items...

[Michael_Galt]

From Reddit:

 

Considering how popular steampunk has gotten, have you thought of making a sequel to Arcanum? Would you have the rights to it, or are they held by Activision Blizzard?

 

Tim Cain: those rights are held by Activision Blizzard, who got them from a chain of buy-sell events occurring after Sierra closed. I have often thought of making a sequel to Arcanum, especially since Troika designed a sequel called "Journey to the Centre of Arcanum" back in 2001, but I don't own the rights and there doesn't seem much interest from the publisher to back such a project

 

:sigh:

 

Damnation. I had always wondered about this- it was so ripe for it! I really am extremely happy for PE, I had literally been wondering how long it would take for a legit studio to propose the very thing, but the steampunk setting just has so much more potential, in my opinion. Seems like this is going to be steampunk ultralight. Maybe in the future, there will be the "Project Eternity: 250 years later".