I'm not Evil I'm just thorough... well OK maybe I'm a little evil

[Chrall]

Will the game allow the player to kill all of the NPCs in the game? Including NPCs that may be required to advance the story similar to Arcanum? (preferably the game would inform the player to the fact they just killed someone important in this game though) I absolutely loved this aspect of that game and I get so disappointed in games like Elder Scrolls when my um... village cleansing... gets foiled by NPCs who simply won't stay down!

[Tamerlane]

Hell, it wasn't just villages with unkillable NPCs in Skyrim. Enemy soldier camps had unkillable NPCs.

 

That's ****ed up, yo.

[AlphaShard]

Why do people want to do this? I agree that you should have been able to clear enemy camps but what's the point of killing NPCS that you can get stuff and quests from? It just seems counterproductive. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it I just want to know why they do.

[Ieo]

Why do people want to do this? I agree that you should have been able to clear enemy camps but what's the point of killing NPCS that you can get stuff and quests from? It just seems counterproductive. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it I just want to know why they do.

 

For the exact same reason why some people aren't interested in any other aspect of a game besides the romances.

[Umberlin]

Why do people want to do this? I agree that you should have been able to clear enemy camps but what's the point of killing NPCS that you can get stuff and quests from? It just seems counterproductive. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it I just want to know why they do.

 

Personally I'm not for killing NPCs outright, just 'because' but if quests are well done they can put you in certain situations where there could be casualties, and that can mean NPCs. I think there should be more quest variety than that, but when you have to watch out not only for your companions, but a bunch of civilians, in the midst of a nasty fight . . . I think that's a character moment. What sort of character are you playing? Are you careful? Do you not care? If you were careful did you make a mistake? How does the character feel about the mistake? If you didn't care, then why? How do people (npcs) and companions react if you made a mistake? How do people and companions react of you shouted out the order to ignore civilian casualties?

 

Good moments can be made out of situations like that, if the quests are well crafted, and . . . quite simply . . . immortal NPCs, in my mind, can harm a moment like that. Imagine that NWN2 moment where the village being slaughtered was blamed on you, with the trial and all. What if it wasn't just finger pointing? What if you were there, in combat, and people died, maybe even all the people. What if that trial wasn't a question of whether you did it? What if it was a character progression moment that made you explain your actions? What if it was more about explaining why you did what you did, whether you thought winning the battle was more important than the lives of the people there. And so on. Of course you could have just been more careful and avoided tha point, but even being careful . . . there could have been a few, or a lot, of people dying.

 

Again, obviously every quest should not involve something like that . . . but when you get used to immortal NPCs, and then you suddenly come across a village where they aren't, so you aren't careful in that moment . . . it lessens the blow. Because it's not a character moment then. It's a game mechanics being inconsistent moment that was thrown at you, and you have no way of knowing those NPCs wouldn't get right back up by the mechanics - due to past experience.

[mstark]

The world is full of griefers, allow them to grief themselves to oblivion by killing anything and everything out there!

 

On a serious note though, agreeing with the OP. I'd love if Obsidian kept the game realistic, in the sense that no one, short of godlike beings, is unkillable.

Edited October 13, 2012 by mstark

[Tale]

Why do people want to do this? I agree that you should have been able to clear enemy camps but what's the point of killing NPCS that you can get stuff and quests from? It just seems counterproductive. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it I just want to know why they do.

Because they offend me.

 

I think it's just good policy. You never know which characters a player might designate as their enemy. For good reasons or poor ones. Skyrim, I killed the lead of the Silverblood family. Why? Because he's a monster. So what if he gave me a quest?

 

Then there are various thieves and thugs. Maybe they're part of sympathetic plot lines. But the player could see them as remorseless criminals. And the idea of a ruthless crimefighter is a fairly popular archetype following the 90s.

[Karkarov]

Why not allow it? Morrowind is still my favorite Elder Scrolls game precisely because it let you do what you wanted, even if it meant you made the game un-winnable. It would warn you when you did that though.... Give the player the freedom to do almost anything really, just be ready to slam the consequences on them for it.

 

PS: Tale, nice avatar. One of the best console RPG's ever made.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The player should be able to kill NPCs if they want to, but have to deal with the consequences. I dislike this whole "plot armor" thing that protects NPCs from death.

[Troller]

Everyone should be killable, obviously there are some that are more likely to kill you than to be killed...

[PsychoBlonde]

What I don't get, is why killing some dude should cause the game to be "un-winnable". He's the only one who knows where the Ultimate Artifiact of Salvation is? The game's limited in scope. I can find it eventually. And if he knows where it is, HOW did he find out?!? Surely I should be able to read the same musty old tome myself.

 

I mean, seriously, you can kill thousands of people but you need some crusty scholar to open a door? PLEASE.

 

That's not to say I think that there's something wrong with games that don't let you randomly attack people. I just think they should pick a conceit and go with it. Either make ALL the "civilians" immortal and untouchable, or let people murder everybody if they REALLY want to. Don't just throw it around randomly.

[Osvir]

I'm with the "You should be able to do it" crowd. Not that I did it really, but for the freedom and atmosphere.

 

This does bring up another issue though, and that's the "suddenly everyone wants to take me down!?" that pops up in Baldur's Gate. Okay! I did get caught red-handed trying to steal all the NPC's money in the drawer... can't I talk myself out of it? Can't I bribe the guards with some of the loot, or do a Jedi Mind Trick charming manipulative conversation option to the NPC a la "You wanted me to steal all your belongings". Guards should get pissed off and try to take me down for sure, but I still want to see some sort of sneaky way out of it... heck I should be able to redeem myself as well! Can't I say "Sorry, I won't do it again" and give everything back? Now, if I do it a second time there should be consequences, but generally the first time I should be able to get away with it IMO (specially if my reputation is "Heroic", that buggered me a lot...).

 

"I've saved your village and the disastrous events, you are calling me Heroic! But I pickpocket you once and you're suddenly 'hating' on me so bad that your entire village is chasing me around like lunatics 'No! You stole 20 gold! Die!'" I should be able to tell them straight to their faces "Hey! I saved you, your family, this freaking entire region from the Iron Crisis... you should be SHOWERING me with money so shut up and let me steal the rest of your belongings AND your wife" xD

 

Does the ENTIRE village really have to suddenly be aware that I took the money from the drawer in the outskirt house of the village and be my enemy? Word really does spread fast doesn't it...

 

Or you accidentally choose a cryptic dialogue option and suddenly everyone is against you without any chance for explanation?

Edited October 13, 2012 by Osvir

[dlux]

Sure, let everyone in the game be killable. There might be a reason that you want to get rid of a certain NPC. And if you break the game - too bad, start over. hehe

 

But why somebody would like to kill every single NPC in a game is beyond me. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

[Jarmo]

Sounds like a self set stretch goal for the fourth playthrough. Follow the plot, do the quests, then wipe out everybody and move to the next village.

The people in the next village shouldn't know I'm a monster either, what with nobody left to tell the tale.

 

Yeah, should be allowed. No, not something I'd do anyway.

The closest I've got was the Fallout 2 New Reno Massacre where I'd often take out everybody in the criminal families.

(except for the 2 bishop ladies who'd be upstairs, sleeping off their experiences and intoxicants)

[Lu Jo]

Well you could depopulate the Mojave and then take over New Vegas.

 

Yeah, give us the possibility to do it, again.

[kenup]

I agree that we should be allowed to kill anyone. I might not go into a rampage, but being forced to accept someone's morality or actions is the last thing I want. Especially if it's an idiot telling you how all the money you've earned is stolen, when you haven't stolen once.

[ImRhoven]

Hell, it wasn't just villages with unkillable NPCs in Skyrim. Enemy soldier camps had unkillable NPCs.

 

That's ****ed up, yo.

 

Most NPC's are only unkillable in Skyrim because they are part of a main, or major quest. As soon as those quests are completed they are killable. (In cases were they are not, it is most often a bug or oversight on part of the developers, the Unofficial Skyrim Patch mod fixes a lot of that, and more. The mod is easily installed through steam if you don't like extra hassle.)

Those unkillable flags aren't so much as to protect the NPC's from the player but from them getting killed by dragon attack and vampire attacks and such. Which is a good thing, because the NPC's sense of self-preservation is non-existant.

[jivex5k]

Do it morrowind style, you kill the wrong person and that's it.

[Tamerlane]

Hell, it wasn't just villages with unkillable NPCs in Skyrim. Enemy soldier camps had unkillable NPCs.

 

That's ****ed up, yo.

 

Most NPC's are only unkillable in Skyrim because they are part of a main, or major quest. As soon as those quests are completed they are killable. (In cases were they are not, it is most often a bug or oversight on part of the developers, the Unofficial Skyrim Patch mod fixes a lot of that, and more. The mod is easily installed through steam if you don't like extra hassle.)

Those unkillable flags aren't so much as to protect the NPC's from the player but from them getting killed by dragon attack and vampire attacks and such. Which is a good thing, because the NPC's sense of self-preservation is non-existant.

Oh trust me, I remember the pain of searching for a quest-related NPC in Oblivion for an hour or two, looking him up online, and finding out that he had a nasty habit of falling off a bridge and dying.

 

But Jesus Christ, man. I've conquered a quarter of the damn country for the Stormcloaks. I'm pretty sure the commander of some random Imperial army camp in the middle of nowhere shouldn't be flagged essential at this point. And the unofficial patch did nothing for that particular issue. Looked very silly, me rampaging through a camp in werewolf form, killing everyone except the commander despite the thorough mauling I gave him.

 

Wonder if those soldiers ever respawned, or if he's still just sitting there. Alone. Maybe talking to corpses on the ground.

[Larkaloke]

I like being able to kill all the NPCs. I don't believe I've ever actually tried to kill them all in any game, but I enjoy the possibility of friendly fire, and there have been many times where I've killed various NPCs for character reasons (whether my character just didn't like them or they got in the way). If NPCs are unkillable, it also often prevents the possibility of sneaking up on them and performing a surprise attack, if you already know that they are somebody you want to kill.

 

I do, however, like in Morrowind that it warns you if you kill off a quest important character, since it would be fairly frustrating to get very far in the game on your first playthrough and then suddenly realise that this guy you bumped off weeks ago because you thought he needed to go was actually quest important and you have to reload from before you snuffed him.

[Chrall]

I've conquered a quarter of the damn country for the Stormcloaks. I'm pretty sure the commander of some random Imperial army camp in the middle of nowhere shouldn't be flagged essential at this point.

This drove me insane as well, I just won the war and defeated all your leaders why won't you die????

[Tusck]

I'm not big on killing NPCs, but I'm big on choice, so if you want to, that's cool. However, there should be consequences to killing them based on their importance.

[GT409]

I'd like all NPCs to be killable. It worked well in New Vegas, quest NPCs were never in harms way. (except for 1 NCR officer near Nelson that kept getting killed by Legion assassin squads sent after me)

Killing them should have consequences of course, and it should not always obvious at the moment.

[anubite]

Why do people want to do this? I agree that you should have been able to clear enemy camps but what's the point of killing NPCS that you can get stuff and quests from? It just seems counterproductive. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it I just want to know why they do.

 

If a player wishes to do something, we shouldn't question their motives. All of the really good RPGs I know of, let you kill anybody in the game. Sure, it could completely break or ruin your game, but that's what saves are for. If you're going to kill an NPC, you should know what consequences that might bring.

 

Skyrim is only one recent example of many, where "essential NPC" systems fail, ruining immersion and taking all of the fun out of the game. Morrowind didn't have such a system, and that game is beautiful to behold. It plays fine and is intuitive. I'll never understand why Skyrim and Oblivion had to have such a mechanic.

Edited October 17, 2012 by anubite

[FlintlockJazz]

Sounds like a self set stretch goal for the fourth playthrough. Follow the plot, do the quests, then wipe out everybody and move to the next village.

The people in the next village shouldn't know I'm a monster either, what with nobody left to tell the

 

I disagree totally with the 'they shouldn't know' part. First off there would ne investigations into why a village burnt down. Second, you have six people in your party, that is not enough to make sure no one escapes and people should try to escape: parents would see the fighting and send their kids into the woods, people on the other side of the map should respond to a massacre going on and flee, etc.

 

Killing someone withour people knowing it was you should require thought, massacring everyone does not and should not be rewarded. I'm all for letting people kill who they want, but they should then face the consequences of their actions and be pimpslapped.