Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[jezz555]

I honestly don't think things like hide should stay relevant: there is a reason that more advanced cultures don't use older armours anymore, your barbarian will just have to adapt or hope that they can decorate the armour to make it look more 'savage' or something, or at least thats my hope.

 

I agree. My answer to the question quoted below is that it'd make perfect sense if said barbarian/ranger was forced to forgo using obsolete armour if circumstance demanded it. That'd make the world more believable.

 

Should something like hide armor be supplanted/made obsolete by leather as an "improved version" or does that effectively kill the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian?

 

Exactly and it shows a sense of progression culturally as well as level wise: Thug the Barbarian, after adventuring in the Civilised lands has adapted and learnt the techniques used there rather than remaining static and unchanging. If my western character travelled to the east I would expect him to adapt to the culture there, much like how the crusaders changed their style f dress while in the Holy Land.

 

Differing outfits help to differentiate characters though for aesthetic purposes, and as far as realism is concerned all of your party is not necessarily going to want to wear plate mail all the time. Hide armor may protect less, but I assume it would also be lighter, quieter, and more agile, easier to get in and out of, as well as less stifling depending on the climate, and less expensive for the poorer members of your party.

[centurionofprix]

Umm, no. That's Hollywood. You don't use a hammer the way you would use a sword. If you did, only then it would be legitimate to say that it's slower due to physics. Different weapons employ different techniques, also based on physics, however, which make up for the relative speed differences.

 

As I said before, that's physics. You can't cheat physics.

 

You move mass either way.

 

True, but the physics of the matter don't reduce to "heavier is slower". There is also the leverage created by the use of two hands on a long hilt/shaft to consider, allowing for very quick and nimble handling of the weapon compared to one-handed usage, as well as the fact that even "heavy" polearms can attack very quickly with short jabbing attacks. You don't slash with them like you would with a one-handed cutting sword. Furthermore, your speed of attacking is often constrained not by how fast you can swing the weapon, but by the speed of your feet in stepping into striking distance, which is almost always slower than the time it takes for the hand to strike. You don't just stand in striking distance wailing away as fast as you can. Time of the hand vs time of the foot vs time of the feet as George Silver explained it in 1600; and in time of the foot the person who has more distance to cross is at a disadvantage. The spear thrust coupled with a short lunge can be faster than the taking of a full step into striking distance with the arming sword.

 

I think the more accurate abstraction would be to give one-handed weapons defensive bonuses with shields or, if going without the shield, grappling abilities with the free hand or bonuses to defensive grappling checks (if there are grapple checks in PE).

 

And while you don't use them both completely the same, in some cases you do.

 

And in some cases you use them in ways where the attack with the bigger weapon is faster.

 

Even worse for hammers it they don't have a piercing tip, since they depend on large swings, and not short jabs/stabs.

 

I don't know if the DnD "hammer" ever really existed as a weapon, or if it appears in PE.

 

Of course, absolutely true. But all things being equal, different types of weapons, produced with the same level of quality and craftmanship, can not be compared and rated as "better or worse balanced than each other" which is how I interpreted your previous statement. A fine sword is just as balanced as a fine axe or mace or hammer or halberd or whatever.

 

Nope, it's not.

The center of mass for an axe will always be higher, making it inherenlty less balanced.

 

It's not less balanced, it's balanced in a different way for a different use. It's inherently less balanced for being waved about like a sword, but the leverage of two hands on a long shaft makes many of these polearms perfectly balanced for their own purpose, and wielding those weapons like swords wouldn't be the most efficient way to make use of their advantages anyway. Even without the leverage of two hands, one-handed axes and maces were usually quite short and light, making them more nimble for many uses than a long rapier, for example, but then the technique and the time of the foot is crucial again. Speed in use just doesn't reduce to weight or size.

Edited November 5, 2012 by centurionofprix

[centurionofprix]

Whoa.

[nubins]

I hate massive swords and think they look rediculous, so when it comes to weapons I'd like to see plenty that are based around realistic designs and weights.

 

When it comes to armour.. well thats much more personal. I personally think that only having "realistic" armour would get quite dull. I thought a lot of the armours in Dragon Age were lifeless and they were trying to keep it real.. so to speak. I think realistic armours should be in the game and given equal status and power as unrealistic armours. Lots of people like high fantasy, lots of people like gritty realistic versions of fantasy. I think to choose one over the other, unless its completely necassary, is a mistake.

 

I mentioned in another thread that I liked Dragons Dogma's armour system. You had boots, trousers, chest armour, chest clothing, helm and back pieces. You could mix and match them. They all had stats that were relative to what they were - heavy armour - heavy defense, clothes - little defence, but better agility etc. You could upgrade and enhance each piece and alter stats to a degree by collecting reagents and cash to do so. They had pieces that were sexy (clothing items, some leather strappy gear) and pieces that were entirely realistic. I prefer to see sexy armour in games, I found in DD that I was using combinations of sexy and realistic pieces to come up with something that i liked, didnt look like it would never work as armour in real world situations and was balanced in terms of its performance.

 

This kinda thing, although my character was an archer so I was using cloth and leather combo pieces:

 

[Merlkir]

BOOBS!

[Monte Carlo]

Boobs aren't allowed in fantasy gaemes any more, they herald the collapse of civlization and the EnD oF DayZ.

[LadyCrimson]

I.....must have this hat. I needs this hat. Where do I get that hat?

[LadyMuck]

Boobs aren't allowed in fantasy gaemes any more, they herald the collapse of civlization and the EnD oF DayZ.

 

Aw come on. Surely there's some support for boobs?

 

 

 

[Jarmo]

Boobs aren't allowed in fantasy gaemes any more, they herald the collapse of civlization and the EnD oF DayZ.

 

Aw come on. Surely there's some support for boobs?

 

 

I am willing to lend my hand wherever boob support is required.

[Tamerlane]

Boobs aren't allowed in fantasy gaemes any more, they herald the collapse of civlization and the EnD oF DayZ.

I thought it was boobs are okay, but icky kissing is bad?

[FlintlockJazz]

I honestly don't think things like hide should stay relevant: there is a reason that more advanced cultures don't use older armours anymore, your barbarian will just have to adapt or hope that they can decorate the armour to make it look more 'savage' or something, or at least thats my hope.

 

I agree. My answer to the question quoted below is that it'd make perfect sense if said barbarian/ranger was forced to forgo using obsolete armour if circumstance demanded it. That'd make the world more believable.

 

Should something like hide armor be supplanted/made obsolete by leather as an "improved version" or does that effectively kill the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian?

 

Exactly and it shows a sense of progression culturally as well as level wise: Thug the Barbarian, after adventuring in the Civilised lands has adapted and learnt the techniques used there rather than remaining static and unchanging. If my western character travelled to the east I would expect him to adapt to the culture there, much like how the crusaders changed their style f dress while in the Holy Land.

 

Differing outfits help to differentiate characters though for aesthetic purposes, and as far as realism is concerned all of your party is not necessarily going to want to wear plate mail all the time. Hide armor may protect less, but I assume it would also be lighter, quieter, and more agile, easier to get in and out of, as well as less stifling depending on the climate, and less expensive for the poorer members of your party.

 

If you are talking about real life hide armour then your assumptions would be wrong on most of those counts.

 

As for aesthetics: that can be done without forcing people to use specific armour to 'portray' their character. A barbarian who refuses to learn and use plate armour isn't being barbaric, he's being a moron. A real barbarian would put that plate on then decorate it with the tribal wards and markings of his homeland, showing that he is not a static stereotype but an actual person capable of growing and learning, adapting what he has learnt on his travels to his own culture.

[SophosTheWise]

I.....must have this hat. I needs this hat. Where do I get that hat?

 

It's a selfmade-hat, albeit a very easy one. Get cardboard, cut a circle out of it, also a circle where your head should be. Use felt in as many colours as you want and put it around the cardboard. Buy a lot of feathers and there you go :D

[Merlkir]

As for aesthetics: that can be done without forcing people to use specific armour to 'portray' their character. A barbarian who refuses to learn and use plate armour isn't being barbaric, he's being a moron. A real barbarian would put that plate on then decorate it with the tribal wards and markings of his homeland, showing that he is not a static stereotype but an actual person capable of growing and learning, adapting what he has learnt on his travels to his own culture.

 

That's a safe bet I think.

 

Example from history - it is believed (someone may correct me if that's not the case) that Germanic mercenary cavalrymen would wear Roman masked helmets into combat, despite them being intended for sports/ritual use. They're super creepy, so I kinda get it.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Roman_cavalry_reenactment_Carnuntum_2008_12.jpg

 

[FlintlockJazz]

I.....must have this hat. I needs this hat. Where do I get that hat?

 

It's a selfmade-hat, albeit a very easy one. Get cardboard, cut a circle out of it, also a circle where your head should be. Use felt in as many colours as you want and put it around the cardboard. Buy a lot of feathers and there you go :D

 

Sir, that is a most awesome hat sir. I weep that such headgear is not worn nowadays.

[FlintlockJazz]

As for aesthetics: that can be done without forcing people to use specific armour to 'portray' their character. A barbarian who refuses to learn and use plate armour isn't being barbaric, he's being a moron. A real barbarian would put that plate on then decorate it with the tribal wards and markings of his homeland, showing that he is not a static stereotype but an actual person capable of growing and learning, adapting what he has learnt on his travels to his own culture.

 

That's a safe bet I think.

 

Example from history - it is believed (someone may correct me if that's not the case) that Germanic mercenary cavalrymen would wear Roman masked helmets into combat, despite them being intended for sports/ritual use. They're super creepy, so I kinda get it.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Roman_cavalry_reenactment_Carnuntum_2008_12.jpg

 

 

Thats so cool! :D And I really get the creepy look, seeing that serene expression on someones face as they come riding at me...

 

I do think that armour looking different on different classes would be a cool way to go. Or to tske the 'culture' armour idea people have given instead of it being 'super' hides or something they are instead still plate but adapted to a 'barbaric' style and use, perhaps emphasizing different attributes?

Edited November 6, 2012 by FlintlockJazz

[SophosTheWise]

 

I.....must have this hat. I needs this hat. Where do I get that hat?

 

It's a selfmade-hat, albeit a very easy one. Get cardboard, cut a circle out of it, also a circle where your head should be. Use felt in as many colours as you want and put it around the cardboard. Buy a lot of feathers and there you go :D

 

Sir, that is a most awesome hat sir. I weep that such headgear is not worn nowadays.

 

Thank you! Yes, and therefore it MUST be in Project Eternity! Vote for Landsknechts and Reisläufer!

[Jarmo]

As for aesthetics: that can be done without forcing people to use specific armour to 'portray' their character. A barbarian who refuses to learn and use plate armour isn't being barbaric, he's being a moron.

 

As a side note, Conan of books (as opposed to conan of movies and comics) actually wore full body chain armor and considered those who didn't, to be morons.

(and he was kind of half barbarian half rogue multiclass as well)

[FlintlockJazz]

 

I.....must have this hat. I needs this hat. Where do I get that hat?

 

It's a selfmade-hat, albeit a very easy one. Get cardboard, cut a circle out of it, also a circle where your head should be. Use felt in as many colours as you want and put it around the cardboard. Buy a lot of feathers and there you go :D

 

Sir, that is a most awesome hat sir. I weep that such headgear is not worn nowadays.

 

Thank you! Yes, and therefore it MUST be in Project Eternity! Vote for Landsknechts and Reisläufer!

 

You can count on my vote! Proper medieval and renaissance clothing would be actually refreshing!

[FlintlockJazz]

As for aesthetics: that can be done without forcing people to use specific armour to 'portray' their character. A barbarian who refuses to learn and use plate armour isn't being barbaric, he's being a moron.

 

As a side note, Conan of books (as opposed to conan of movies and comics) actually wore full body chain armor and considered those who didn't, to be morons.

(and he was kind of half barbarian half rogue multiclass as well)

 

Aye I was actually thinking of Conan and how different he is in the book as I wrote that! I really need to get to reading my way through those books one of these days...

Edited November 6, 2012 by FlintlockJazz

[Karranthain]

I.....must have this hat. I needs this hat. Where do I get that hat?

 

It's a selfmade-hat, albeit a very easy one. Get cardboard, cut a circle out of it, also a circle where your head should be. Use felt in as many colours as you want and put it around the cardboard. Buy a lot of feathers and there you go :D

 

Sir, that is a most awesome hat sir. I weep that such headgear is not worn nowadays.

 

Thank you! Yes, and therefore it MUST be in Project Eternity! Vote for Landsknechts and Reisläufer!

 

I've mentioned lightly armoured fighters before; it's not something commonly seen so I'm definitely looking forward to that. Some other examples :

 

 

 

[jfood]

One of the ways to keep more archaic armors on a level playing field is through assigning damage reduction types to various materials, then raised or lowered based on cultural type. You can initially gate choices behind quest hubs for various cultures, allowing for item tier progression and storyline interaction. As an example, our human, pistols and sword skirmishing cipher uses a chain shirt at level one. It's slightly heavier than hide or leather, reducing stamina regeneration and movement speed somewhat, but offers another 5 points of damage reduction against slashing and piercing damage, but has no real resistance to bashing. Leather being slightly more well-rounded against damage types with hide offering a bonus against bashing, cuz there's fur on the inside... it's not as form-fitting as leather... reason the magic balance fairy gave me, wutever...

 

As the player progresses through the storyline and begins playing through the dwarven area, armor types that were locked behind size and cultural typing, begin to unlock through quest progression. For dwarven and orlan players, these types of armor were always available, but there are similar reward and progress milestones for them amongst other cultural quest hubs. These needn't be involved quests, but can be if warranted by narrative, and can be tagged onto others. Where an early quest in the dwarven hub that usually give only xp or minor items can now unlock a lower tier cultural armor from the local smith/leatherworker/shopowner. There would still be a monetary cost to the player to obtain said armor, which to give an example of might be 'Dwarven War Hides*', made from the Ironfur Yak, which are almost comprable to Human chainshirts in terms of slashing and piercing but offers greater protection against bashing, as well as being lighter. You can have both story and item progression while keeping more primative types of armor (and fashion!) in play.

 

If the crafting system were to be as robust as to offer salvaging of loot for raw materials, it could be another avenue of progression for smiths and leatherworkers as well. As opposed to helping the dwarves and Sagani with our human cipher this time around we're playing an orlan rogue-tinkerer who's more crafting oriented and wears medium scale type armor. While the generic orlan made ones do the trick for close up fighting and alchemy bomb tossing, the human made ones offer a slightly higher chance to resist acid damage, perfect for our orlan grenadier. Only problem is, they're twice her size. Since she doesn't particularly 'like' humans, she kills them and takes their sweet loot as opposed to the human cipher, who was doing more of a 'United Armors of Benetton' style progression. If the crafting system allows for salvage you can give every salvage attempt a chance to unlock a blueprint or schematic for that armor type for the specifc item/paperdoll slot. The higher your crafting skill the higher your chance. As the character's crafting skills progress they can also improve on these cultural armors as well, as say 'mastercraft' and 'perfected' gradients. Multiple avenues to achieve the same rewards hopefully benefitting a few different playstyles.

 

*you don't actually wear 'dwarf hide', just hide armor made by, you know, dwarves.

Edited November 7, 2012 by jfood

[nubins]

As for aesthetics: that can be done without forcing people to use specific armour to 'portray' their character. A barbarian who refuses to learn and use plate armour isn't being barbaric, he's being a moron. A real barbarian would put that plate on then decorate it with the tribal wards and markings of his homeland, showing that he is not a static stereotype but an actual person capable of growing and learning, adapting what he has learnt on his travels to his own culture.

 

That depends on the time period and realism really, barbarians, in the fantasy sense of the word are often thought of as being conan like.. big and muscled. Plate armour was an extremely expensive set of gear, custom made to fit its owner. If it didnt fit properly, the interlocking plates would not work properly and it wouldn't move effectively. Also, if you tried to fit a breast plate made for a normal sized person on the the frame of a muscled giant.. its not gonna work too well. So for the barbarian to realistically be using plate armour, he would have to buy a set for himself from a civilised area.. not too easy for them to do.

 

Also depends on the barbarians, wouldnt have done ghengis khans horse mounted archers much good to be packing heavy plate armour on them, too restrictive to use their bows. A lot of barbarian cultures were nomadic and need to move and fight quickly from horseback. The technology of crafting fine armour plate was not something easy to do when always on the move and without access to fixed forges, smelters and supplies of high quality ore. It was only in the late rennaissance period when the main european powers were able to fit out large numbers of soldiers with plate armour, as the technology to mass produce it had come around. Of course, the advent of relliable firearms then ended its effective use on the battlefield anyway.

Edited November 7, 2012 by nubins

[Tamerlane]

You have no idea how much I want armour made from flayed dwarves now.

[AGX-17]

I'd love to see something like this in the game :

 

 

Have fun with that stupidly heavy helmet that prevents you from turning your head.

[Nomine Vacans]

Have fun with that stupidly heavy helmet that prevents you from turning your head.

These helmets were mostly used to provide additional protection from the lance while charging into battle on horseback.

Knights often wore the close-fitting steel skull cap known as a cervelliere, or its later development the bascinet beneath the great helm, and would remove the great helm once close combat ensued.

I doubt very much that there will be the cavalry in P:E, so I gues there will be no much real usage for topfhelms.

But still, it's not "stupidly" heavy. It's heavy, but it can save your head from becoming a kebab.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Comedian