Level scaling - don't scale individual enemies, scale ENCOUNTERS

[Gorth]

Yes, New Vegas did also use level scaling actually. Obsidian just did a better job with it. Check the link.

 

http://forums.obsidi...60#entry1194163

Interesting

 

At least I could make basic assumptions about the respective enemies "deadliness".

[DocDoomII]

No level scaling, at all. That's how EVERY game should be done. Level scaling just doesn't make sense, no matter how it is implemented

If you spent a month of in-game time going around doing stuff and neglecting the bandit camp we were talking a few post above, it doesn't seem to far-fetched to me if said camp expanded or the bandits got new members.

Clearly if all the bandits only became stronger to match your level for no apparent reason, that would make no sense at all.

That isn't enough for me. Lets say that in a certain area I receive a quest from the King (voiced by Gilbert Gottfried of course ^^) to take care of the bandit threat in a certain area. After I wipe out the first camp, the other bandit camps should reinforce themselves by adding higher level enemies. A scout of the King could then cross my path telling me that the bandits are reinforcing (in order to improve story telling and immersion).

 

That is level scaling done right... as long as it isn't used too often.

Hm, well that's not actually level scaling, but more like interactive environment.

I was merely talking about what happen to monsters in an area when you level up in another.

What you are talking about is simply a more structured quest.

Instead of having:

• King tasks you with killing the bandits
  
• Go to camp 1 and kill all bandits
  
• Go to camp 2 and kill all bandits
  
• Go to camp 3 and kill all bandits
  
• Go back to the King for the reward.
  

you would have:

• King tasks you with killing the bandits
  
• Go to camp 1 and kill all bandits
  
• Camp 2 disbands and the bandits seeks refuge in the rundown alleys of the city
  
• Camp 3 gather part of the camp 2 bandits that didn't flee in the city and grow stronger
  

You can choose:

• A) To look for the bandits that took refuge in the city, thus allowing camp 3 to grow even stronger
  
• A2) Destroy camp 3
  
• B) Or to destroy camp 3 but allowing the bandits in the city to hide themselves preventing you to find them
  

Then returning to the king:

• A) Full reward from the king
  
• B) Lower reward/standing/reputation
  

 

But this is not level scaling, is just a better thought and implemented quest

[ogrezilla]

Well, depends on how they do it. I'm not too fond of the idea, myself - mooks just magically getting tougher despite everything else in the situation being equal. But if they do it with a cap based on the 'zone' it wouldn't be that ridiculous.

I don't get why its weird to think other people or even monsters in this world are doing things when we aren't around. If we can wander around and get stronger, why can't they? Again, within set limits. Basically just enough to make up for the difference in the amount of side questing someone has done.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla

[J.E. Sawyer]

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

[ogrezilla]

well...there it is.

[dlux]

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

Thank god!

 

Now we have to go and beat up Feargus for making us worry so much! lol. Just kidding.

Edited October 2, 2012 by dlux

[Jaesun]

And there was much rejoicing. <3

[AwesomeOcelot]

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

Possibly Feargus Urquhart, definitely whoever posts comments under the "creator" account on Kickstarter said there was going to be level scaling dependent on which order three territories were entered. On this news I'll see if I can double my pledge.

[Undecaf]

And there was much rejoicing. <3

 

[Gorgon]

Level scale all player races and bosses, leave the rest. That way you can still feel increasingly powerful as you level up and keep everything from getting too easy. No lv 52 wolves or rats.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't mind a little scaling in terms of area-confined scaling. FNV was fine/hardly noticeable, as already mentioned. I'd find that acceptable. That said ....

 

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

I love you.

[dlux]

No level scaling, at all. That's how EVERY game should be done. Level scaling just doesn't make sense, no matter how it is implemented

If you spent a month of in-game time going around doing stuff and neglecting the bandit camp we were talking a few post above, it doesn't seem to far-fetched to me if said camp expanded or the bandits got new members.

Clearly if all the bandits only became stronger to match your level for no apparent reason, that would make no sense at all.

That isn't enough for me. Lets say that in a certain area I receive a quest from the King (voiced by Gilbert Gottfried of course ^^) to take care of the bandit threat in a certain area. After I wipe out the first camp, the other bandit camps should reinforce themselves by adding higher level enemies. A scout of the King could then cross my path telling me that the bandits are reinforcing (in order to improve story telling and immersion).

 

That is level scaling done right... as long as it isn't used too often.

Hm, well that's not actually level scaling, but more like interactive environment.

I was merely talking about what happen to monsters in an area when you level up in another.

What you are talking about is simply a more structured quest.

Instead of having:

• King tasks you with killing the bandits
  
• Go to camp 1 and kill all bandits
  
• Go to camp 2 and kill all bandits
  
• Go to camp 3 and kill all bandits
  
• Go back to the King for the reward.
  

you would have:

• King tasks you with killing the bandits
  
• Go to camp 1 and kill all bandits
  
• Camp 2 disbands and the bandits seeks refuge in the rundown alleys of the city
  
• Camp 3 gather part of the camp 2 bandits that didn't flee in the city and grow stronger
  

You can choose:

• A) To look for the bandits that took refuge in the city, thus allowing camp 3 to grow even stronger
  
• A2) Destroy camp 3
  
• B) Or to destroy camp 3 but allowing the bandits in the city to hide themselves preventing you to find them
  

Then returning to the king:

• A) Full reward from the king
  
• B) Lower reward/standing/reputation
  

But this is not level scaling, is just a better thought and implemented quest

 

True. The world reacts and changes because of your decisions and doings. But it does include a type of level scaling that actually improves a game.

[Living One]

Great!Considering this and the fact that the cooldowns doesn't sound as annoying as I thought(though I still don't get how they'll deal with the 'stand around after battle and wait for cooldowns') there are some p.good news today.

[Elthosian]

I don't mind a little scaling in terms of area-confined scaling. FNV was fine/hardly noticeable, as already mentioned. I'd find that acceptable. That said ....

 

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

I love you.

 

Back away, he is mine! ALL MINE!

 

Now seriously, you rock Josh! But you guys really should make an update or something, I still don't like some of the cooldown stuff, though I hope you get to do it well enough.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Elthosian

[DocDoomII]

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

Thanks for clearing the concerns of many people!

[Wombat]

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

It's hard to browse the Kickstarter comment pages but probably, it's the quote below.

More info, as Feargus jumped back on the KS Comments page for a couple hours:

*snip*

Q: Will you do the level/power of the creatures scaled? Im really worried about that, I'm playing a new "RPG" (aka hack and slash adventure game) and I hate how the NPCs are harder everytime. Same guys, just more power. I mean, Im a kind of demigod or something, then, the vulgar thief of the town spank me. Thats annoying! Please, say "no level scaling!"

A: We are going to use a number of different systems. Some creatures will be fixed based upon where they are in the world. Some will scale and then be fixed based upon where you go in the world first. Why we do it that way is so we can have the world be non-linear in places. For instance, if you can goto three adventure areas in any order you want, we have to scale them to make sure that they all remain challenging when you get to the second and third ones.

 

[Edit]BTW, totally off topic but, to anyone responsible for the board application, could you make a "show developer posts" option? I definitely cannot read all the posts, especially when quite many of them appear to be getting repetitive. Going to the designers' profiles and choosing show posts can be an alternative but it feels less convenient.[Edit]

Edited October 2, 2012 by Wombat

[C2B]

Thanks Sawyer. As I said, don't take anything as a fact if it isn't clarified.

Edited October 2, 2012 by C2B

[Grone]

I don't know where this topic came from, but I don't expect to use level scaling much, if at all, in PE.

 

 

Now, about those cooldowns...

[Infinitron]

Well, I imagine this thread is redundant now. Still, a fine theoretical discussion.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[Tigranes]

Excellent.

[IndiraLightfoot]

J.E. Sawyer, you brought much needed clarity to a jumble of speculation. Now we can lower this beaten horse into the murky waters of Bael Marsh.

*Phew*

Edited October 2, 2012 by Apex of the Obsidian Order

[agewisdom]

Phew... minimal level scaling would be preferable. As long as there are viable alternatives to some of the major battles such as sneaking away, dialog options to resolve conflicts peacefully etc., I see no good reason to AVOID level scaling whilst still allowing for a flexible. non-linear exploration of the areas in PE.

[norolim]

Ah, fire extinguished. Now, all those who cancelled their pledges must pledge again. Doubling the amount, i hope

[Valorian]

Right.

 

So now that we have a confirmation that, after all, it's "if at all"... what about the apologists that all of sudden had started liking level scaling, but "smartly implemented"? Are you sad?

 

I asked a developer what was exactly level scaled in F:NV. He said only the critical path was and that the side locations (the majority of the game) were not scaled to the player's level at all. Ineed, I noticed that only the assassins being sent to kill you were scaled.

[Hagen]

So now that we have a confirmation that, after all, it's "if at all"... what about the apologists that all of sudden had started liking level scaling, but "smartly implemented"? Are you sad?

No.

 

My opinion is that level-scaling can be done smartly and doesn't always completely fubar a game.

 

I do not need it to be present, I'm indifferent about it. If they can pull it off without any level scaling, fine! If they choose to implement it somewhere for playability's sake, also fine.

 

It's hard to please everyone with their design decisions, but so far, I think Obsidian is doing a really good job. No need to bitch and moan just yet.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Hagen