Overreaction theater!

[C2B]

My first point can be explained as this:

"Sure, the mechanics in the IE games are garbage, but compared to modern RPGs they're much better. Even though IE games already were dumbed down they're still a lot better than what we get today. I'd rather take the IE games than modern games, even though I'd even rather play something like KotC or ToEE but that's too much to hope for these days."

 

And how do you figure we get the same system as DA/WOW/whatever? We have no idea how Obsidian is actually going to use the cooldowns or if its even the main gameplay mechanic regarding spells (which I seriously doubt).

 

Don't get me wrong, you should make threads and voice your opinion/concerns. Just don't see all hell because of one little remark. This won't magically turn into DA/WOW. Have faith in Tim and Sawyer to do it right.

Edited October 2, 2012 by C2B

[Pangur]

Have faith in Tim and Sawyer to do it right.

This.

 

Seriously. I've been visiting this forum every day since PE kickstarter was launched, and today I just don't recognize it. I'm saddened not by Obsidian's decisions, but by people's reaction to them.

 

We still know too little about the game to draw any conclusions. And even if we don't like something - well, so be it. We all have our opinions and preferences, but this is Obsidian's game, not ours. Let them make it the way they want it to be.

[Merin]

You are certainly entitled to voice your opinion. And it's great (I don't agree really with the OP that much even though he probably meant to calm minds). Just don't overreact before we don't know how it actually works. Which we really, really don't. Expect for making assumptions and comparisons with games these people haven't even worked on.

 

I have to say 3 things though:

 

A: The hardcore audience disagrees a lot even about combat in older games. So, should Obsidian really copy 100%?

 

B: Connected to A actually. Infinity engine games aren't really beloved because of their systems. In fact they are more heavily critizized than most other rpg combat systems. Especially on the codex. (Rightfully IMO, due to the problems arising translating D&D to RTWP) So, I don't really get your first point there.

 

C It's Sawyer. He's not negative to taking parts of modern game design and you guys know that (and argued in the past about it). Yet, there was still the Deathclaw Quarry. Yet, there was still F:NV. What did you expect?

 

Thank you.

[Jasede]

My first point can be explained as this:

"Sure, the mechanics in the IE games are garbage, but compared to modern RPGs they're much better. Even though IE games already were dumbed down they're still a lot better than what we get today. I'd rather take the IE games than modern games, even though I'd even rather play something like KotC or ToEE but that's too much to hope for these days."

 

And how do you figure we get the same system as DA/WOW/whatever? We have no idea how Obsidian is actually going to use the cooldowns or if its even the main gameplay mechanic regarding spells (which I seriously doubt).

 

Don't get me wrong, you should make threads and voice your opinion/concerns. Just don't see all hell because of one little remark. This won't magically turn into DA/WOW. Have faith in Tim and Sawyer to do it right.

 

I can explain that. As soon as anything remotely like DA/WOW/whatever is mentioned my alarm bells ring. We don't know how the system will be or how it'll be implemented. But I know for a fact that as soon as you move even a tiny inch closer towards DA/WOW/whatever territory you are making compromises that sort of feel, to me, against the spirit of an older styled RPG.

 

Think of it as lamentations.

 

Sure- MAYBE they'll implement all these things in a tasteful and good manner. Maybe there'll not just be cooldowns but, say, a soul energy system like the meter in MotB and maybe the level scaling will be more like the acceptable encounter scaling in BG 2.

 

But we don't know and so I can only fall back on the initial impression: cooldowns / level scaling, two things that are very likely to accompany a "modern" RPG. The kind of RPG I can't stand.

 

 

Let me reiterate: I'm not saying it'll be like those games but I am saying that I'd have more confidence if those concepts were avoided because of their bad track record. Very few games have become better due to cooldowns or level scaling but many of them have become terrible.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Jasede

[nikolokolus]

There's an elephant in the room. I've been playing RPGs since the basic D&D box set and as fond as my memories are for early D&D are, let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gameplay mechanic. Now take that PnP system and cram it into a CRPG and you've got a proper mess.

 

Just because something is old doesn't mean it's a good design. There has to be room for innovation. Now maybe that is or isn't a particular kind of cooldown system, but I'd at least like to see what Tim Cain and JE Sawyer can cook up before getting out the pitchforks

[Tale]

Very few games have become better due to cooldowns or level scaling but many of them have become terrible.

More games had level scaling than some people seem to realize. And many well implemented systems people don't even notice in order to judge if it contributed or not. That's the curse of subtlety.

[Merin]

Very few games have become better due to cooldowns or level scaling but many of them have become terrible.

More games had level scaling than some people seem to realize. And many well implemented systems people don't even notice in order to judge if it contributed or not. That's the curse of subtlety.

 

Nuance is often lost on most people.

[nikolokolus]

The funny thing is that every game has a form of level scaling, be that through a leveled list, game chapters, or areas with progressively tougher critters. One way or another games are almost nevergoing to throw out a red dragon as an encounter at level one.

[GammaHamster]

let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gameplay mechanic.

I don't remember it sucking in any of the IE games.

[GhostofAnakin]

People really do seem to be overreacting before even knowing fully in what way these two features (cooldowns and level scaling) are going to be implemented.

 

When the project was first announced, the general consensus was "I trust these guys know how to make RPGs, so I'm backing them". What happened to that? Did Chris, Tim, Josh, etc. suddenly forget how to make RPGs in the last fifteen or so days? If you trusted them originally, then trust that they'll be able to pull this off, even if you're a little leery about some of the features announced.

[rjshae]

Seriously. I've been visiting this forum every day since PE kickstarter was launched, and today I just don't recognize it. I'm saddened not by Obsidian's decisions, but by people's reaction to them.

 

We still know too little about the game to draw any conclusions. And even if we don't like something - well, so be it. We all have our opinions and preferences, but this is Obsidian's game, not ours. Let them make it the way they want it to be.

 

The strength and range of opinions just means that people are passionate about their RPGs, which is a good thing. I'm not too concerned that somebody's pet peeve or preference is going to "wreck" this project.

[nikolokolus]

let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gameplay mechanic.

I don't remember it sucking in any of the IE games.

 

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells. So in other words, was that a failure of tactics or a failure to guess correctly?

 

Josh Sawyer posted something about this on his formspring account and it really made me think.

 

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

Edited October 2, 2012 by nikolokolus

[GammaHamster]

let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gameplay mechanic.

I don't remember it sucking in any of the IE games.

 

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells.

I see, i died and had to reload = game sucks.

 

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

IE games encouraged preparing for a fight.

Edited October 2, 2012 by GammaHamster

[Saber-Scorpion]

I just wanted to jump in here and join the voices crying out against level scaling and cooldowns.

 

I find it amazing that people are saying things like "You backed this project because you trust Obsidian, so just trust them!" and "This is Obsidian's game, not ours!" - Was this not a Kickstarter project? Doesn't that make it at least partially "ours" in some way, even if not literally? Hasn't Obsidian said that they want to please their old school fans like us who backed the project? I think we're entitled to at least complain a bit when what we are hearing does not meet our expectations when we helped fund the project.

 

Can level scaling and cooldowns be used sparingly with decent results? Yes, a little bit of level scaling here and there to streamline difficulty perhaps, and cooldowns in conjunction with other limitations on power use. Those things are fairly reasonable.

 

But what does history show us? That many great games did fine without them, and many other games were terrible because of them. I actually was never a big fan of the Vancian magic system in BG and IWD, because it can be a real pain in the ass. But it's still a hell of a lot better than guzzling mana potions and rapidly clicking on powers as you wait for them to cool down, making magic seem less like cryptic arcane rituals and more like an overheating plasma gun in Halo. I hope Obsidian can come up with something better than either of these systems, but I would prefer the former to the latter.

 

In the end, I'm just glad these decisions are causing some "overreaction" backlash, because hopefully that means Obsidian will at least pause and consider revising their final system as minutely as possible.

[C2B]

My first point can be explained as this:

"Sure, the mechanics in the IE games are garbage, but compared to modern RPGs they're much better. Even though IE games already were dumbed down they're still a lot better than what we get today. I'd rather take the IE games than modern games, even though I'd even rather play something like KotC or ToEE but that's too much to hope for these days."

 

And how do you figure we get the same system as DA/WOW/whatever? We have no idea how Obsidian is actually going to use the cooldowns or if its even the main gameplay mechanic regarding spells (which I seriously doubt).

 

Don't get me wrong, you should make threads and voice your opinion/concerns. Just don't see all hell because of one little remark. This won't magically turn into DA/WOW. Have faith in Tim and Sawyer to do it right.

 

I can explain that. As soon as anything remotely like DA/WOW/whatever is mentioned my alarm bells ring.

 

And that's absolutly fine. Voice your concerns. That's actually really helpful, since we probably now get a clarification on that.

 

Just don't assume a black and white scenario. That's rather unhelpful since too many emotions get mixed up too extreme. Wasted energy.

Edited October 2, 2012 by C2B

[Sargallath Abraxium]

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells. So in other words, was that a failure of tactics or a failure to guess correctly?

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

 

...no, what it did was tell ya that ya was wrong in yer tactics an' ta rethink the battle...hence roleplayin'...sorry it were not Diablows-like enuff fer ya...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[nikolokolus]

let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gamep

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells.

I see, i died and had to reload = game sucks.

 

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

IE games encouraged preparing for a fight.

 

I appreciate some good snark as much as the next guy, but you confusing my distaste for clunky game design with a desire for an easier game isn't quite the same thing

[TrashMan]

People really do seem to be overreacting before even knowing fully in what way these two features (cooldowns and level scaling) are going to be implemented.

 

When the project was first announced, the general consensus was "I trust these guys know how to make RPGs, so I'm backing them". What happened to that? Did Chris, Tim, Josh, etc. suddenly forget how to make RPGs in the last fifteen or so days? If you trusted them originally, then trust that they'll be able to pull this off, even if you're a little leery about some of the features announced.

 

 

What happened? People were promissed an experience like in the old days.

Now when you start saying things like "no rest", "cooldowns" and such, you effectively shatter the connection to the old games.

 

Does that sound like hte games of old? It doesn't to me.

 

As far as I'm concerned it's not the isometric perspective that made the old games so fun to play. It was the mechanics. Without rest, without something similar to vanacian (even fatigue would do. Heck ,ti would probably work better)..it's not it anymore. I guess what makes hte "core" of the old experience is subjective, but for me it is that.

 

So yes, I'm damn worried.

 

So what I want is more details and clarifications on those things..preferably before Kickstarter ends.

I'm going to wait till the last day to make changes to my pledge. What is said till then will determine the final amount of $$. But even if I am totally dissapointed, I'll still pledge something, simply because I still belive in old-school RPG's.

Edited October 2, 2012 by TrashMan

[nikolokolus]

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells. So in other words, was that a failure of tactics or a failure to guess correctly?

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

 

...no, what it did was tell ya that ya was wrong in yer tactics an' ta rethink the battle...hence roleplayin'...sorry it were not Diablows-like enuff fer ya...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

 

What you describe isn't tactics nor is it roleplaying

Edited October 2, 2012 by nikolokolus

[Lady Evenstar]

And even if we don't like something - well, so be it.

 

And how do we really know we will/won't like something until we've seen its implementation? Guns are a good example for me. I don't like the idea of "guns" in fantasy, but that doesn't mean that I'll enjoy the game less because it features early models. It all comes down to details--which we don't yet know.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells. So in other words, was that a failure of tactics or a failure to guess correctly?

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

 

...no, what it did was tell ya that ya was wrong in yer tactics an' ta rethink the battle...hence roleplayin'...sorry it were not Diablows-like enuff fer ya...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

 

What you describe isn't tactics nor is it roleplaying

 

 

...I ain't described shyte; jus' explained yer lack o' understandin' o' what cRPG's be bringin' ta the table...an' then ya proved it...thanks fer lessenin' me hope fer this generation o' RPGers e'en more...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[ogrezilla]

let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gameplay mechanic.

I don't remember it sucking in any of the IE games.

 

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells.

I see, i died and had to reload = game sucks.

 

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

IE games encouraged preparing for a fight.

 

But you had to know what to expect in the fight to properly prepare for it. That almost always meant you had to have seen the fight before or else you were just making your best guess as to how to prepare for it. It wasn't thoughtful strategy. You either knew the correct answer or you didn't.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla

[GhostofAnakin]

What happened? People were promissed an experience like in the old days.

Now when you start saying things like "no rest", "cooldowns" and such, you effectively shatter the connection to the old games.

 

Does that sound like hte games of old? It doesn't to me.

 

As far as I'm concerned it's not the isometric perspective that made the old games so fun to play. It was the mechanics. Without rest, without something similar to vanacian (even fatigue would do. Heck ,ti would probably work better)..it's not it anymore. I guess what makes hte "core" of the old experience is subjective, but for me it is that.

 

But it's one feature. I'm genuinely asking this (no snark intended), but would one feature really make or break the experience for you? For instance, hypothetically speaking, if Baldurs Gate had had a cooldown system rather than resting, would that have completely and utterly ruined the game for you? Assume that everything else remained the same about the game, except it simply had cooldowns rather than resting. Would you not be a fan?

 

This is where my disconnect is. I can't think of one single feature being removed/altered from my favorite games that would suddenly make me not enjoy them anymore. I might enjoy them slightly less, but I can't think of a feature being removed that would sway my opinion of "this is a GREAT game!" to "well, this completely ruined my experience now".

 

So yes, I'm damn worried.

 

So what I want is more details and clarifications on those things..preferably before Kickstarter ends.

I'm going to wait till the last day to make changes to my pledge. What is said till then will determine the final amount of $$. But even if I am totally dissapointed, I'll still pledge something, simply because I still belive in old-school RPG's.

 

And that's fine. But the bolded part above is why I think there's a lot of overreaction. We know next to nothing about the actual details of these features, only that there will be "cooldowns".

Edited October 2, 2012 by GhostofAnakin

[Sargallath Abraxium]

let's face it, Vancian magic kind of sucks as a gameplay mechanic.

I don't remember it sucking in any of the IE games.

 

I remember countless times facing a tough fight, dying and reloading only to pick a new set of spells.

I see, i died and had to reload = game sucks.

 

The IE games basically encouraged meta gaming and not cleverness if you think about it.

 

IE games encouraged preparing for a fight.

 

But you had to know what to expect in the fight to properly prepare for it. That almost always meant you had to have seen the fight before or else you were just making your best guess as to how to prepare for it. It wasn't thoughtful strategy. You either knew the correct answer or you didn't.

 

 

...not knowin' exactly what ta expect happens in battle, but bein' prepared for what be most likely ta happen be the point...no right answer or wrong answer, per say, jus' good preparation...hence roleplayin'...wow, look at that, dots do connect...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[TrashMan]

But it's one feature. I'm genuinely asking this (no snark intended), but would one feature really make or break the experience for you? For instance, hypothetically speaking, if Baldurs Gate had had a cooldown system rather than resting, would that have completely and utterly ruined the game for you? Assume that everything else remained the same about the game, except it simply had cooldowns rather than resting. Would you not be a fan?

 

 

Maybe. I really can't answer that question as I can't go back in time and play a different BG2, but my experience would DEFINATIVELY be different.

 

But you do know what the word "core feature" means, no? CORE.

Sometimes even a small change can have far-reaching consequences.

 

Traveling resting and resource managment is what makes PnP great. And an ideal CRPG (to me) is as close to PnP as you can get.

 

Tell me, how will you bring back the old feeling of dangerous travel, fatigue and forboading as you make your way back to the village tovern to rest? Another poster said it far better than I did earlier. The atmosphere and feeling change.

 

 

This is where my disconnect is. I can't think of one single feature being removed/altered from my favorite games that would suddenly make me not enjoy them anymore. I might enjoy them slightly less, but I can't think of a feature being removed that would sway my opinion of "this is a GREAT game!" to "well, this completely ruined my experience now".

 

Completely ruined? no.

Going from 10/10 to average? Yes.