In-Game Tutorial

[ogrezilla]

I associate tutorials, especially in-game ones, with consoles--with the dumbing down of computer games for people who can't be bothered reading a manual. I've always loved reading game manuals before starting a game. Sometimes, as in BG1, I enjoyed the manual more than the game itself. I took it on a trip with me and was studying it intently in anticipation of my first playthrough. It's one reason that I really want a printed manual for this one. The only reason to have a tutorial is if you are not planning to publish a well written manual. I would much rather they spend the time they would have spent on the tutorial to make a better game manual instead. The fans of this title are not afraid of reading. I think at least that much is clear.

 

will the typical person buying this game get a physical game manual? And I'm sorry, but its still just easier to understand when you can see it happening in the game. An interactive tutorial is just a better way to teach than a written manual.

[Knott]

Narrative tutorials bother me. Move it to a whole other menu item and be done with it. This solves my biggest two concerns.

 

1) You don't have to tie narrative sequences to boring gameplay. There isn't a fun tutorial in existence. The best tutorials are merely tolerable.

2) Players who take a break don't need to restart the game to get a refresher on mechanics.

 

Obviously you didn't watch this: http://penny-arcade....e/tutorials-101

(Or optionally, you never played Portal)

 

Making a good, fun and engaging tutorial for a game is entirely possible!

Its even possible to make tutorials you never knew were there.

[Demoss]

BG2 style would be best imo, doesn't interfere with the main game as is on the main menu for anyone who needs it. A lot of old games did this and is somewhat missed on my part, annoying mandatory ones more common nowadays are not welcome.

[Flying Magician]

will the typical person buying this game get a physical game manual? And I'm sorry, but its still just easier to understand when you can see it happening in the game. An interactive tutorial is just a better way to teach than a written manual.

 

I fully agree. But I think a coloring book and a balloon on stick would be even better than an interactive tutorial and written manual together.

[Hmm-Hmm.]

Since we don't know what the start of the game is going to be like (nor do Obsidian at this state, I'd assume), we don't quite know how feasible it is to interject a (skippable) tutorial on the gameplay-side of things. On the other hand, while I tend to read manuals, especially ones as great as BG's was, a lot of people tend not to.

 

I would say that I'd prefer an in-game help file/index for in depth information, potentially with a hint system to point at said help file and an in-character gameplay based tutorial which can be skipped for the standard gameplay elements. Sort of all of the above, then.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Hmm-Hmm.

[metiman]

It doesn't matter whether a typical person receives a paper manual. Most people do have printers and can just print out the digital version. Or read the digital version on their computer just like pirates are so used to doing. It's also inevitable that paper versions will be available on Ebay for very little once the game has been out for a while.

 

The point is a tutorial is a waste of resources. Whether a tutorial is easier to understand is questionable, but even if it is true so what? The existence of a comprehensive old style game manual has already been announced. The resources to make one have already been commited. A tutorial is redundant if you know how to read and if you don't know how to read or just hate reading you are going to hate this game anyway for its walls of text. Just like with PS:T, many people will be turned off by having to read so much in a computer game. For the rest of us a manual is perfectly adequate and IMO far superior to some cheesy tutorial made for console-kiddies or illiterates.

[molarBear]

he who does not read is not of us

[Aedelric]

I would prefer not to have a tutorial spoiling the immersion of the early part of the game. We only have tutorials these days because people are too lazy to read a few pages of text in order to know how to play the game.

 

To me a manual would be fine, just like the good old days.

[ogrezilla]

It doesn't matter whether a typical person receives a paper manual. Most people do have printers and can just print out the digital version. Or read the digital version on their computer just like pirates are so used to doing. It's also inevitable that paper versions will be available on Ebay for very little once the game has been out for a while.

 

The point is a tutorial is a waste of resources. Whether a tutorial is easier to understand is questionable, but even if it is true so what? The existence of a comprehensive old style game manual has already been announced. The resources to make one have already been commited. A tutorial is redundant if you know how to read and if you don't know how to read or just hate reading you are going to hate this game anyway for its walls of text. Just like with PS:T, many people will be turned off by having to read so much in a computer game. For the rest of us a manual is perfectly adequate and IMO far superior to some cheesy tutorial made for console-kiddies or illiterates.

 

Whatever. I disagree. I'll leave it at that. But please keep using wild generalizations and insinuating that people who disagree with you are illiterate. It's a very effective arguing technique.

Edited September 26, 2012 by ogrezilla

[metiman]

I never insinuated anything of the kind. I didn't say that people who want a tutorial are illiterate or even stupid. I think I can be fairly confident that anyone who is responding to a post I made can in fact read and understand English. The simple fact is that there is no legitimate reason to make a tutorial for intelligent players who like to read. It's everyone else who would want/need a tutorial. It's just simple logic.

 

Is reading a manual really so difficult? It's not like you even have to read the whole thing all at once. Usually just the first 20-30 pages is more than sufficient to at least start the game. Normally I wouldn't care whether they made a tutorial for people who prefer them, but in this case it's a waste of resources. if this weren't supposed to be such a word-heavy game I could see an argument that some people just don't like to read (even if they are excellent readers with large vocabularies). If it were an action game I could see the argument that action gamers just want to dive right into the action as quickly as possible. But it is going to be a game with lots of text and it is not going to be an Action RPG like Diablo, Dragon Age, or Skyrim. So certain things can be assumed of Obsidian's audience for this title including a fondness for reading and a desire for a slower, more strategic style of combat.

 

Also, IIRC, none of the IE games had tutorials. You were expected to read that nice paper manual that came with the game box if you had trouble immediately figuring out the controls and interface.

Edited September 26, 2012 by metiman

[Redwulf]

Give me an actually good well fleshed out manual, and a few tool tips in game, and I will be happy, especially with a well fleshed out manual. In fact, you can cancel any sort of tutorial if I get a fatty manual that I can keep under my head and use as a pillow at night. Since that is not, no doubt, the way of it, tool tips will work, as long as I can disable them later of course. I suppose my real manual will be thick enough to fly away with the breeze after I read it in 10 minuets, at least the birds will have a new friend.

[ogrezilla]

I never insinuated anything of the kind. I didn't say that people who want a tutorial are illiterate or even stupid. I think I can be fairly confident that anyone who is responding to a post I made can in fact read and understand English. The simple fact is that there is no legitimate reason to make a tutorial for intelligent players who like to read. It's everyone else who would want/need a tutorial. It's just simple logic.

 

Is reading a manual really so difficult? It's not like you even have to read the whole thing all at once. Usually just the first 20-30 pages is more than sufficient to at least start the game. Normally I wouldn't care whether they made a tutorial for people who prefer them, but in this case it's a waste of resources. if this weren't supposed to be such a word-heavy game I could see an argument that some people just don't like to read (even if they are excellent readers with large vocabularies). If it were an action game I could see the argument that action gamers just want to dive right into the action as quickly as possible. But it is going to be a game with lots of text and it is not going to be an Action RPG like Diablo, Dragon Age, or Skyrim. So certain things can be assumed of Obsidian's audience for this title including a fondness for reading and a desire for a slower, more strategic style of combat.

 

Also, IIRC, none of the IE games had tutorials. You were expected to read that nice paper manual that came with the game box if you had trouble immediately figuring out the controls and interface.

 

BGII did. I don't remember about the rest.

[metiman]

BG2 had a tutorial? I play that game at least once a year, and I don't remember that. Not saying you're wrong though. Is it right at the start of Chateau Irenicus? I should really do a BG2ToBSCS playthrough in honor of this project. Just don't have the time right now.

[ogrezilla]

BG2 had a tutorial? I play that game at least once a year, and I don't remember that. Not saying you're wrong though. Is it right at the start of Chateau Irenicus? I should really do a BG2ToBSCS playthrough in honor of this project. Just don't have the time right now.

Its a separate option when you start a new game. and it treats you like you know absolutely nothing.

Edited September 26, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Sylvius the Mad]

BG2 had a tutorial? I play that game at least once a year, and I don't remember that. Not saying you're wrong though. Is it right at the start of Chateau Irenicus? I should really do a BG2ToBSCS playthrough in honor of this project. Just don't have the time right now.

Its a separate option when you start a new game. and it treats you like you know absolutely nothing.

Yes. Xan shows you around.

[GhostofAnakin]

The tutorial should be optional. Nothing as annoying as having to play through a 30 minute "tutorial" level each and every time you start a new game.

 

To add on to my previous post, if there is a tutorial at the beginning, make it skippable at least.

[Slice0fLife]

I really loved how the tutorial in BG2 went, it was not really connected to the main story, but it did give a sense that I was in the game already. The first time I went through it, I felt that it was part of the game, not just some random mock battle.

 

And I loved that I could keep the exp in to the game from the tutorial.

[JediMB]

I associate tutorials, especially in-game ones, with consoles--with the dumbing down of computer games for people who can't be bothered reading a manual.

 

On the flip side, others associate manuals with old games where the developers hadn't yet figured out how to make a game that teaches the player how to play, or isn't intuitive enough for the player to just learn by doing.

 

(I do love a good manual, though.)

Edited September 26, 2012 by JediMB

[Lysen]

It depends on how it is done. In-game tutorial could be horrible, like in Fallout 3 for example, especially when it is totally unskippable. On the other hand, think about VTM: Bloodlines. Damn, I used to replay the tutorial because I wanted to listen to Jack's voice and his cracky jokes. "The Sabbath, eh, well... They are mostly just mindless bloodthirsty ****, that's what you need to know right now".

[Tuco Benedicto]

I'm *entirely* for a separate tutorial that you could pick from the game menu.

Maybe developers could make it mandatory the first time you install the game, but that's all I feel I can concede.

If they want to make it somehow tied to the story they could call it "prologue" or something like that, but the actual campaign in a game should start dropping you in the heart of the actual game.

 

In-game tutorials are inevitably boring, if not even annoying, after the first playthrough.

Whoever tried to replay a Zelda game after the first time should know what I'm talking about.

And for those who are asking: yes, it was boring even in Baldur's Gate.

[Osvir]

This link I'm posting might get merged with this.

 

Other: I love candlekeep... but:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61123-i-love-candlekeep-but/

[AGX-17]

no love for RTDM (read the damn manual), huh?

 

Some games have more complexity than can be relayed with the text "move right and jump over everything that gets in your way." If you can't make a game that teaches players how to play without them noticing they're being taught (or not having fun even if they do realize it,) you shouldn't be designing games in the first place.

[TheDogProfessor]

Preferably, the tutorial would not have to be completed on every play-through. So either a separate tutorial or, like what BG did, include a tutorial area, but make the tutorials non-compulsory. It was possible just to buy your equipment and talk to Gorion. The second option only really works if the xp and loot gains from the tutorial are minimal or negligible.

[Solonik]

Separate or tooltips for NEW content. It's not like anyone here NEEDS a tutorial, but there are kids out there who are just getting into RPGs. Then there are the new mechanics, which may take time to discover on your own.

[Agelastos]

Tooltips that can be turned On or Off at any time, using the Options menu.