In-Game Tutorial

[Jozape]

It's a classic RPG. What is there to tutor?

 

A lot. RPGs generally have very complicated rulesets that need to be learned before one can make informed decisions for his/her character. Or even to build a character. This is compounded by the need to learn the UI in a cRPG. Tutorials are very helpful.

[alphyna]

It's a classic RPG. What is there to tutor?

For some people, it will be their first game. Yeah, gamers don't pop up out of thin air with lots of experience in older titles.

 

True. The problem is tutorials are often useless and teach trivial things (left-click to move, my ass). I think an easy first mission (with possible tooltips) is the best way of introducing the game to new players. Learn by doing!

 

But.

 

A lot. RPGs generally have very complicated rulesets that need to be learned before one can make informed decisions for his/her character.

 

It seems like PE is going to be pretty hardcore and nostalgic-gamers-oriented. Is it really wise for the developers to outdo themselves while trying to smooth things out for first-time casual gamers? I'm not that hardcore myself, frankly, but it seems to me that this is a bit misguided. This is not their game, it's ours. While I certainly don't suggest making it artificially inaccessible, it seems to me that we may pass the playground and get straight to action.

[Nakia]

For me a separate tutorial which is optional. Those mandatory in-game tutorials get very boring.

[RosesandAshes]

I don't mind tooltips, but I've been playing TOEE and I liked that they had separated the tutorial from the main story. I played it a couple times just to get a feel for the gameplay.

 

But if it needs to be in the game itself, I'd love an option to skip it, especially if I'm going to be going through the game multiple times (which I suspect I will).

[ogrezilla]

It's a classic RPG. What is there to tutor?

For some people, it will be their first game. Yeah, gamers don't pop up out of thin air with lots of experience in older titles.

 

True. The problem is tutorials are often useless and teach trivial things (left-click to move, my ass). I think an easy first mission (with possible tooltips) is the best way of introducing the game to new players. Learn by doing!

 

But.

 

A lot. RPGs generally have very complicated rulesets that need to be learned before one can make informed decisions for his/her character.

 

It seems like PE is going to be pretty hardcore and nostalgic-gamers-oriented. Is it really wise for the developers to outdo themselves while trying to smooth things out for first-time casual gamers? I'm not that hardcore myself, frankly, but it seems to me that this is a bit misguided. This is not their game, it's ours. While I certainly don't suggest making it artificially inaccessible, it seems to me that we may pass the playground and get straight to action.

 

ideally, wouldn't we want "them" to play this game and like it so games like this can start being made with regularity again? Really there is no good reason not to include a tutorial. It's always easier to learn by doing than it is to learn from a manual. Personally I would like a completely separate tutorial outside of the game so that it can show you a little bit higher level stuff that you won't have access to early in the game. Identifying items, learning spells etc. They probably don't need to teach people how to move, but explaining what the stats do and how hit chance and stuff is calculated could be very helpful.

Edited September 25, 2012 by ogrezilla

[rjshae]

A side tutorial that is skipable. I hate games that always force you to use the tutorial at the start, sure its ok the FIRST time you play, but if you want to play again it sucks the fun out.

 

Yes, tutorials are welcome the first time through. But an opt-out for subsequent replays is a must. Thanks.

[Seldon]

In game tutorial is fine, as long as it's skippable, like the one in NWN2.

[Phyon]

I agree it should be skipable but I don't think it should be a separate menu you need one to help be some one easier for new players to get into the game and tell them the basics of the game. But yeah it being something to skip would be nice.

[Peter]

I would like optional tutorial that follows a story of some minor NPC that could be found somewhere in PE world.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Peter

[Ieo]

It's a classic RPG. What is there to tutor?

For some people, it will be their first game. Yeah, gamers don't pop up out of thin air with lots of experience in older titles.

 

True. The problem is tutorials are often useless and teach trivial things (left-click to move, my ass). I think an easy first mission (with possible tooltips) is the best way of introducing the game to new players. Learn by doing!

 

But.

 

A lot. RPGs generally have very complicated rulesets that need to be learned before one can make informed decisions for his/her character.

 

It seems like PE is going to be pretty hardcore and nostalgic-gamers-oriented. Is it really wise for the developers to outdo themselves while trying to smooth things out for first-time casual gamers? I'm not that hardcore myself, frankly, but it seems to me that this is a bit misguided. This is not their game, it's ours. While I certainly don't suggest making it artificially inaccessible, it seems to me that we may pass the playground and get straight to action.

 

You're missing a critical point: Obsidian is not profiting off the Kickstarter. Their entire hope for a franchise, the future, is riding on this KS-funded being successful on the market to fund further games and nifty things. This cannot be done if the game is not reasonably accessible. Most if not all the hardcore old-school gamers have already popped in here--this isn't going to really take off unless new gamers are brought in to enjoy the intellectual and immersive depth of the old-school iso CRPG.

 

An in-game tutorial is a must. While the "you don't notice" ones are best in the immersive sense, the problem is that those may not be skippable for replay value. Separate tutorial with a simple check for first installs is my vote.

[Jarmo]

Tooltips.

The kind you can disable from game options. It would be helpful at first, with 50 strange icons hovering about.

 

I might kind of like a small separate tutorial, but it's probably not worth the effort to make or go through.

[ogrezilla]

Tooltips.

The kind you can disable from game options. It would be helpful at first, with 50 strange icons hovering about.

 

I might kind of like a small separate tutorial, but it's probably not worth the effort to make or go through.

if the game is to be a success with the majority of gamers who have never played this style of game then a well made tutorial could be very important. They aren't making this game purely for the kickstarter backers.

Edited September 25, 2012 by ogrezilla

[alphyna]

ideally, wouldn't we want "them" to play this game and like it so games like this can start being made with regularity again?

Absolutely, but not at the cost of boring "us" out of our minds.

A separate tutorial would work just fine, I suppose. It's just that they seem so... artificial.

[ogrezilla]

ideally, wouldn't we want "them" to play this game and like it so games like this can start being made with regularity again?

Absolutely, but not at the cost of boring "us" out of our minds.

A separate tutorial would work just fine, I suppose. It's just that they seem so... artificial.

but it almost has to be there. This style of game is very complicated compared to what the average gamer plays. There are lots of buttons, lots of numbers and lots of decisions to make. Make it separate or let us skip it. We will never be bored once.

Edited September 25, 2012 by ogrezilla

[alphyna]

 

You're missing a critical point: Obsidian is not profiting off the Kickstarter. Their entire hope for a franchise, the future, is riding on this KS-funded being successful on the market to fund further games and nifty things. This cannot be done if the game is not reasonably accessible. Most if not all the hardcore old-school gamers have already popped in here--this isn't going to really take off unless new gamers are brought in to enjoy the intellectual and immersive depth of the old-school iso CRPG.

No, I'm not. Kickstarter aside, no game (no anything, for that matter) can appeal to everyone. It's a matter of choosing between something more accessible, yet a bit less interesting, and the opposite option. Generally, I prefer specialized products over non-specialized ones (but that's obviously personal).

 

It's actually funny how people here stigmatize Bioware games and everything else "Sims-ish", but fail to extend that point towards cerain aspects of PE. Bioware games are accessible. Romance is accessible. Customizing your house is accessible. None of that is accepted, though; yet tutorial-wise everything is different and suddenly PE needs to appeal to broader audiences.

 

I'm exaggerating, of course. I'm not against a tutorial, not at all. Personally I don't need it and prefer learning by trial and error, but it's clear to me that I'm part of a minority here. So no pressure

[Suen]

A tutorial at the start of the game (mandatory). Optional. +Tooltips.

NWN2 style.

[alphyna]

ideally, wouldn't we want "them" to play this game and like it so games like this can start being made with regularity again?

Absolutely, but not at the cost of boring "us" out of our minds.

A separate tutorial would work just fine, I suppose. It's just that they seem so... artificial.

but it almost has to be there. This style of game is very complicated compared to what the average gamer plays. There are lots of buttons, lots of numbers and lots of decisions to make. Make it separate or let us skip it. We will never be bored once.

We're discussing two separate issues here.

 

1. Tutorials in general. *sigh* I know it's unavoidable, but can I have my dream of a NON-TUTORING HEARTLESS DEATH MACHINE, please? It's just a dream, after all.

 

2. A separate-button tutorial. While this option makes perfect sense, I don't like it aesthetically. It just screams HEY WE'RE PLAYING A GAME HERE and breaks my immersion. Does it matter if this option is the best from more sensible points of view? No. Can I please shut up? Probably, but ain't it engaging to talk?

[ogrezilla]

ideally, wouldn't we want "them" to play this game and like it so games like this can start being made with regularity again?

Absolutely, but not at the cost of boring "us" out of our minds.

A separate tutorial would work just fine, I suppose. It's just that they seem so... artificial.

but it almost has to be there. This style of game is very complicated compared to what the average gamer plays. There are lots of buttons, lots of numbers and lots of decisions to make. Make it separate or let us skip it. We will never be bored once.

We're discussing two separate issues here.

 

1. Tutorials in general. *sigh* I know it's unavoidable, but can I have my dream of a NON-TUTORING HEARTLESS DEATH MACHINE, please? It's just a dream, after all.

 

2. A separate-button tutorial. While this option makes perfect sense, I don't like it aesthetically. It just screams HEY WE'RE PLAYING A GAME HERE and breaks my immersion. Does it matter if this option is the best from more sensible points of view? No. Can I please shut up? Probably, but ain't it engaging to talk?

 

wait, a tutorial button the main menu would bother you? that's...strange. last time I went for an adventure I don't remember going through a menu first. actually, I would take a GPS with me so that's not even true

Edited September 25, 2012 by ogrezilla

[alphyna]

wait, a tutorial button the main menu would bother you? that's...strange. last time I went for an adventure I don't remember going through a menu first. actually, I would take a GPS with me so that's not even true

Well, not bother as in "never gonna buy this game". Bother as in "this game doesn't entirely suit my obscure preferences". It won't make it unenjoyable, just a bit less-than-perfect for me. It's a subtle thing.

 

In other news, shutting up now.

[metiman]

I associate tutorials, especially in-game ones, with consoles--with the dumbing down of computer games for people who can't be bothered reading a manual. I've always loved reading game manuals before starting a game. Sometimes, as in BG1, I enjoyed the manual more than the game itself. I took it on a trip with me and was studying it intently in anticipation of my first playthrough. It's one reason that I really want a printed manual for this one. The only reason to have a tutorial is if you are not planning to publish a well written manual. I would much rather they spend the time they would have spent on the tutorial to make a better game manual instead. The fans of this title are not afraid of reading. I think at least that much is clear.

Edited September 25, 2012 by metiman

[Wintersong]

A tutorial at the start of the game (mandatory). Optional. +Tooltips.

NWN2 style.

I must say that for me the NwN2 tutorial was quite "mandatory". The items for winning the competition were a nice addition (at least the healing toy). And if you wanted some reactions to your race selection like in the case of the drow, the tutorial was the only real place to get any (unfortunately). But otherwise, yeah, NwN2 style is fine.

[Minttunator]

Either separate or skippable is fine with me. As long as we don't have to go through the PE equivalent of Chateau Irenicus every single time.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Minttunator

[Tale]

Narrative tutorials bother me. Move it to a whole other menu item and be done with it. This solves my biggest two concerns.

 

1) You don't have to tie narrative sequences to boring gameplay. There isn't a fun tutorial in existence. The best tutorials are merely tolerable.

2) Players who take a break don't need to restart the game to get a refresher on mechanics.

[Sylvius the Mad]

With proper documentation, a tutorial shouldn't be necessary.

 

But assuming there will be a tutorial, I would prefer it be entirely separate. EverQuest had a stand-alone tutorial when it was released (it was removed from later versions because players were using it to explore high-level zones using a mod called ZoneWalker), and it worked really well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

2. A separate-button tutorial. While this option makes perfect sense, I don't like it aesthetically. It just screams HEY WE'RE PLAYING A GAME HERE and breaks my immersion.

I don't think many players are immersed yet when they're still at the main menu.

 

I agree this would be odd if it were accessible from an in-game menu. I don't think that is what's being suggested, though. I'm thinking more of a stand-alone tutorial like in the Total War games.