Stealth Killing

[TwinkieGorilla]

I've always been a fan of the idea that once your pc is alone, in a closed room, or far enough away from other npcs, that a murder can take place without the entire town (or a single other person, for that matter) becoming alerted. Whether due to sneaking skill-checks, poisons, or silent throat-slitting I'd love the game to give some focus to this.

 

Funny. This is something I've discussed so often throughout the years and I'm coming up a little empty with all the ideas I'd like to elaborate on. Maybe anybody else interested in playing a ninja-like character can come in and bounce some ideas off each other?

 

For instance, one thing I've always wanted is something like cyanide capsules or poison vials which can be used as viable fatal weapons and not simply small health-drains. Maybe the npc has a drink in their inventory and a sneak skill-check coupled with a special "Silent Killer" trait/perk/ability allows the pc to successfully taint the drink?

 

Yay, nay?

 

EDIT: somebody suggested I make a poll. Let me know if I could rearrange the poll in a more constructive way.

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[l3loodangel]

Yay. But it should be worth while, because in most RPG's sneak kills are either never need or a big obstacle, because some team members can't sneak...

Edited September 21, 2012 by l3loodangel

[evdk]

This sounds like something highly situational that would need to be heavily scripted.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Yay. But it should be worth while, because in most RPG's sneak kills are either never need or a big obstacle, because some team members can't sneak...

 

In some party-based rpgs you can select one character and go off on your own, no?

[l3loodangel]

Yay. But it should be worth while, because in most RPG's sneak kills are either never need or a big obstacle, because some team members can't sneak...

 

In some party-based rpgs you can select one character and go off on your own, no?

 

Yeah, but it was never beneficial IIRC, as if you would get caught you would be alone vs. many. And not many things you could do actually... I think it works better in 1 player worlds like FO or AoD, because it's designed differently... Though in both games I expected much more.

Edited September 21, 2012 by l3loodangel

[Lysen]

Maybe you can murder a servant from the castle where your target lives, put on his/her clothes and then infiltrate the castle, poison some food or set the whole place on fire. Would be awesome.

[Domigorgon]

Well, let's say you're alone in a town house with its inhabitant. If you attack him normally, he can still cry out and call the guards. But if you use your thief's silent kill ability, he will have no time to cry out, hence no guards/infamy.

 

(it's like what you could do in Fallout 1 and 2 by using Super Stimpaks on NPCs)

[TwinkieGorilla]

Maybe you can murder a servant from the castle where your target lives, put on his/her clothes and then infiltrate the castle, poison some food or set the whole place on fire. Would be awesome.

 

Ah, yes! That is something I've rallied for years for (disguises). New Vegas touched on it a little (and AoD looks to have an interesting take as well) bit but I'd love that to be a fully implemented game mechanic. I do realize that this may be asking too much but these are two things which no game has ever satisfied me with.

 

(it's like what you could do in Fallout 1 and 2 by using Super Stimpaks on NPCs)

 

Hehe, yes but actually implemented by the devs instead of exploited by the player.

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Tale]

Yes, but...

 

Just because nobody saw you, it doesn't mean they can't figure it out. And that's probably really hard to implement but I'd like to see it. Yeah, nobody saw you, but everyone knows you were going to see the guy because you've been yelling around town for his location. Or they saw you walk into the house.

 

It's easier, and it would be acceptable, to just say "did they see you do it? y/n" and leave it at that. But I would like to see a more complicated system somewhere down the line. This game or another.

[l3loodangel]

Maybe you can murder a servant from the castle where your target lives, put on his/her clothes and then infiltrate the castle, poison some food or set the whole place on fire. Would be awesome.

 

Ah, yes! That is something I've rallied for years for (disguises). New Vegas touched on it a little (and AoD looks to have an interesting take as well) bit but I'd love that to be a fully implemented game mechanic. I do realize that this may be asking too much but these are two things which no game has ever satisfied me with.

 

I would only go for that it if would give same or more XP wise as killing all the castle, because sneaking option's are crappy XP wise. That's the other reason I never really use them.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Just because nobody saw you, it doesn't mean they can't figure it out.

 

Ok, I realize my desire for a lack of "Holy **** the entire town knows how could they possibly know?!" ala most games is getting meta because I'm asking for a more realistic approach. But you're getting maybe too meta? Even still, I could see "bluff/lie/charisma" skills/traits allowing a player to talk their way out of getting caught or high solo sneak skills allowing paths into, I don't know, back windows for instance...without being seen.

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Lysen]

I would only go for that it if would give same or more XP wise as killing all the castle, because sneaking option's are crappy XP wise. That's the other reason I never really use them.

 

You could get most XP for completing the quest (killing the NPC, for example) and come crappy XP for eliminating low-level guards. If you didn't kill everyone in the castle, you could supposedly receive some XP for using the disguise, if successful (could be based on your skill). But sure, it is probably hard to implement, so most developers just force the player to slaughter everyone.

[Tale]

Just because nobody saw you, it doesn't mean they can't figure it out.

 

Ok, I realize my desire for a lack of "Holy **** the entire town knows how could they possibly know?!" ala most games is getting meta because I'm asking for a more realistic approach. But you're getting maybe too meta?

I don't see how. Too many games let you get away with murdering a guy just because everyone's back is turned. But then they turn around, see you standing over him with a bloody knife, and they're completely dumbfounded as to what happened. I understand the problems with complex AI that may cause these issues, but I think it's valuable to consider fixing it if reasonable. I think a system that forces the player to consider what evidence they leave behind and any witnesses could make it interesting.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I don't see how. Too many games let you get away with murdering a guy just because everyone's back is turned. But then they turn around, see you standing over him with a bloody knife, and they're completely dumbfounded as to what happened. I understand the problems with complex AI that may cause these issues, but I think it's valuable to consider fixing it if reasonable. I think a system that forces the player to consider what evidence they leave behind and any witnesses could make it interesting.

 

Hehe. I'm not talking about putting a bucket over somebody's head here. The first thing I mentioned was being in a completely secluded environment.

 

EDIT: re-read my op and maybe I didn't make that clear. So, yes, secluded. Like in a dark alley or room with closed door, etc.

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Malcador]

Would be nice to have a bit of Hitman in RPGs, well with a tad better AI.

[Humanoid]

It's something that's fun but mechanically challenging to implement, given that it's probably something that'd only see use a few times at most in a typical playthrough. I can definitely see actions of this nature being made an option through 'dialogue' instead without damaging immersion overmuch. I'm thinking particularly of the give gun to kid trick in Fallout 2.

[Amentep]

I never liked going into a house that has no other people around it, killing the inhabitants and having everyone know you did it (and without even the decency of CSI: Project Eternity breaking out!)

 

Although in one sense this is a problem with a global reputation so maybe it can be improved through a different kind of reputation system?

[descalabro]

I'm ok with the backstabbing ability the way it was done with all Forgotten Realms/Black Isle games. That means the injure level depends on the level of stats of both our PC and the enemy NPC.

[teknoman2]

Maybe you can murder a servant from the castle where your target lives, put on his/her clothes and then infiltrate the castle, poison some food or set the whole place on fire. Would be awesome.

 

Ah, yes! That is something I've rallied for years for (disguises). New Vegas touched on it a little (and AoD looks to have an interesting take as well) bit but I'd love that to be a fully implemented game mechanic. I do realize that this may be asking too much but these are two things which no game has ever satisfied me with.

 

I would only go for that it if would give same or more XP wise as killing all the castle, because sneaking option's are crappy XP wise. That's the other reason I never really use them.

one way to make sneaking as worthwhile as smashing, would be to remove combat experience. you dont get xp for anything except for solving quests. but that would bring to the problem that you would have to do stuff only a paladin would do even if you are a psychopath in order to get more xp

another way is to scale the xp rewards like in certain situations in BG. you could kill a creature and get 42000xp or find an alternative and get 7000xp for each party member as quest reward (42k total)

 

lets make an example

the daughter of a farmer has been chosen by the church to be the sacrifice (how original)

the entire town agrees with the choice and the farmer cant do anything but accept it (he obviously had agreed when it was the turn of someone else's daughter)

he offers the location of a pirate's treasure as reward to save his daughter

you accept and have the following options

 

1. you break down the temple's door, kill all the priests, take the girl and leave. the ruckus will bring the townspeople at the gates and so you have to slaughter them of threaten them in order to leave. the farmer will give you the location of the treasure, but he will have to abbandon his land before the angry mob comes for him and you will get very little xp for the quest and your reputation with any factions involved will go down (total xp 10k from the quest, 30k from the priest killing, 6k from the slaughter of peasants or bonus for making them back off without a fight)

 

2. you talk to the priests, learn the reason for the sacrifices if your stats-skills are enough to make them talk and rid them of the problem if possible. you get to kill a demon and get much xp, you get a reputation bonus, and the reward from the farmer plus a bonus from the priests (total xp 26k from the quest and 20k for the demon)

 

3. you get in stealthily, reach the cell, take the girl out the window and into a safe place where she can skip town with her father (another option in this case is to rape her so she becomes useless for the ritual and leave her there. she returns to her father the next day but he gets angry at what happened and wont tell you the location of the treasure. you have to persuade him in some way or kill him, get his key and have the daughter tell you where he hides his stash that contains the map). no one knows you're involved so no reputation changes, you get the maximum reward in xp for the quest and you may betray them to get more money from the church. another girl takes her place (total xp 46k from the quest)

 

4. if you are a mage and can do it, you make a flesh golem that looks just like the girl using some of the girls hair, then swap it with her by using a spell that will reverse the location of the two. you get no reputation changes cause no one knows of your involvement, the town is happy cause they made their sacrifice, the farmer can stay at his home but will have to send his daughter away and you will get a smaller xp reward than the thief method, when you return to town at a later date, you will find it in ruins, cause the demon was not apeased by the fake sacrifice. you can kill the demon at that time. (total xp 26k from the quest + 20k if you kil the demon)

 

5. you report it to the priests, they arrest him, the ritual is performed normaly. the priests, after interogation, learn of the treasure's location and that an artifact they need is there, so they send you to get it. when you get back the farmer is dead and you give the artifact to the priests who can now seal the demon without sacrificing virgins. your reputation goes up and you get a bonus in gold besides the treasure. (total xp 20k for the betrayal and 26k for finishing the priest's quest)

Edited September 21, 2012 by teknoman2

[TwinkieGorilla]

It's something that's fun but mechanically challenging to implement, given that it's probably something that'd only see use a few times at most in a typical playthrough. I can definitely see actions of this nature being made an option through 'dialogue' instead without damaging immersion overmuch. I'm thinking particularly of the give gun to kid trick in Fallout 2.

 

I am admittedly completely naive about the degree of difficulty in implementing such a thing. All I know is that its something I've always wanted and have never quite got, though some games have had one or two aspects. Dialogue options are fine (and certainly better than nothing) but wouldn't, for me at least, satisfy the urge of using poisons as lethal weapons. Or simply the desire I have for fixing the situation where a game's npcs are suddenly all alerted to something they'd really have no way of being alerted of.

 

Although in one sense this is a problem with a global reputation so maybe it can be improved through a different kind of reputation system?

 

Keeping in mind my game-making naivete, what things do you think might help this sort of thing? What is it which alerts npcs to a situation? I can't imagine at the very least that this couldn't be tweaked, right?

 

That means the injure level depends on the level of stats of both our PC and the enemy NPC.

 

Problem I have with this though...is that if you really were a trained assassin or bad ass ninja (bear with me here) you would absolutely be able to kill somebody in one silent blow (if we're talking weapons) or with a single cyanide capsule (if we're talking poisons).

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Baudolino05]

Stealth killing is great, but it makes sense only in a game with REAL stealth mechanics. Clicking on an icon and then rolling around like Harry Potter with the Invisibility cloak doesn't match my idea of stealth.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Clicking on an icon and then rolling around like Harry Potter with the Invisibility cloak doesn't match my idea of stealth.

 

I'm not sure how you got that from what I was suggesting but ok.

[Amentep]

Although in one sense this is a problem with a global reputation so maybe it can be improved through a different kind of reputation system?

 

Keeping in mind my game-making naivete, what things do you think might help this sort of thing? What is it which alerts npcs to a situation? I can't imagine at the very least that this couldn't be tweaked, right?

 

Tweaking is actually what I suggest; I think the problem is that the finer you get with the reputation system (and looking at what characters could have seen) the more difficult it will be to account for the variety of states it could create.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Could a possible solution be a stealth roll upon entering a location, during the act, and then again upon leaving?

[Entropious]

I must say a big NO to that. In order for stealth killing to have any meaning at all, a whole set of game mechanics would have to carefully created. So much effort for just a single class (let's face it, any more than one rogueish class is too much for a precise, deep gaming experience) would be a waste of time and resourcess, not to mention the Emperor's bolter shells.